Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
Replies
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My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.0 -
The blood type diet is pure pseudoscience, without a single lick of truth or reality to it.Just to add a little something else to the mix. Ever heard of the blood type diet? There are some blood types better suited for lots of meat, less meat, and no meat. I am A+ the suggested diet for A+ is essentially vegan. On the other hand, a friend of mine tried to go vegetarian and felt terrible, she went to the doc and the doc told her that her blood type should really eat meat.
I'm not totally sure that I 100% buy into the blood type diet but I can say that I feel way better as a veg head than I did eating meat and I have met other people who have not had the same experience.0 -
I don't see it as a debate, I see it as a lifestyle choice, but of course that doesn't mean that this thread isn't going to get ugly, which it will.
This ^0 -
My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
I believe you can take enzyme supplements in that case, but it's only necessary if your body has completely seized production of the enzymes you need. tigersword probably has the answer to that :P0 -
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
Eating a rare steak is in no way comprable to gnawing through fur, hide and ripping raw flesh from an animal.
Also, smoked salmon is not raw, although raw salmon is pretty tasty, especially if you have wasabi.0 -
Also once a vegetarian/vegan stops eating meat, their body will literally get sick from it because our bodies aren't meant to digest meat unless we are introduced to it at a young age.
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
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Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.0 -
Yes, but setting aside lands just for cows would kind of go eliminate the advantage of having more room by not eating cows, wouldn't it? Besides, who would give up their land, so that cows would have a place to live? Ranchers? Doubt it, they'd convert their land to something that they could profit from. Farmers, who essentially wiped out the natural habitats of cattle and buffalo to build their farms a couple hundred years ago? Nope, won't happen there, either, as that completely kills the concept. Cows wouldn't have anywhere to go. Most breeds of chicken have been cross bred for meat yield, and would absolutely not survive, as most of them can barely even walk, and certainly can't fly any more. Some pigs would be abler to survive, again, some breeds wouldn't. No matter how you look at it, it would still mean the assured death of billions of animals, and entire species.Farm animals that are raised for meat are unable to survive on their own. If the entire world suddenly turned vegan, cattle (meat and dairy,) chickens, pigs, would all basically become extinct.
Mmm, not really.
Pigs go feral extremely easily and quickly. They're a huge problem in some states.
Holsteins would have some serious issues, but more primitive breeds of dairy cows and many of the beef cows would do okay if we reserved a range for them. Beef cows that have been accustomed to a management-intensive style of life probably wouldn't.
Sheep, on the other hand, are far too stupid to survive on their own unless it's like an isolated island :P
It sounds like an absolute lose/lose situation when we think of it this way, doesn't it? Either we continue doing what we're doing - killing and eating billions of animals, or we let them free and possibly have a fair few species of animal completely die out.0 -
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
A lot of wild predatory animals don't eat the skin or fur either. It tends to be scavenger specialists that perform that job - hyenas for example have ridiculously strong bites - more powerful than the lions that provide some of their meals.Eating a rare steak is in no way comprable to gnawing through fur, hide and ripping raw flesh from an animal.
Also, smoked salmon is not raw, although raw salmon is pretty tasty, especially if you have wasabi.0 -
No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Hundreds of thousands. Humans started using burnt tipped spears a quarter million years ago.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.:laugh:All the proof you need that we are designed to eat meat AS WELL AS plant matter, can be found in the mirror and in your gut. Look in the mirror. Notice your eyes are facing forward - an omnivorous/predatory trait. Open your mouth. Notice you have canines. Canines are designed for ripping flesh. You also have molars and premolars for grinding. In your digestive tract, you'll find specialised enzymes for both meat and plant matter.
I don't see why either side gets so inflamed, but I do get frustrated by people trying to preach veganism to me. Same as I get frustrated by people preaching religion to me, or their political beliefs.
I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
Ya cooking meat appropriately really sucks cause then food poisoning can't effectively decrease the population.
Humans have been cooking meat for thousands of years.0 -
Also once a vegetarian/vegan stops eating meat, their body will literally get sick from it because our bodies aren't meant to digest meat unless we are introduced to it at a young age.
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Feel free to add what you like about a vegetarian diet here! Purely a thread for knowledge and discussion.0 -
I eat meat and I love it... that's about as much of a "debate" as you'll get out of me. I mean, if someone's going to be vegan, just make sure they're getting well-rounded nutrients and proteins! If someone (like me) loves meat, make sure not to eat in excess.
Because of my dairy allergy I *AM* forced to use vegan margarine. I guess we can connect over that one. Hahahahaha.
But no, I don't debate it. Although I haven't known many people to stay with a vegan lifestyle for super long. Kudos to those who can do it with balance and good health!0 -
Well for me, I do both. Its up to that person ;life style. Sometimes I have to lay off meat, because the meat I was eaten was raising my blood pressure, and when I do vegetarian, its to clean my body in the eyes of god.... Just saying...0
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No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I agree about it being personal choice, but there is vegan nutritional yeast, which is grown on molasses, that has B12. Or there are B12 supplements.0 -
Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
The people I spoke to who inspired this thread would get really ANGRY at humans calling themselves 'omnivores'.
Here's an example of one of her posts about 'omnivores':
Technically, humans are not ''omnivores''. The fact that most people eat both plant foods and meat on a regular basis is not ''proof'' that humans are ''omnivores'' - it just means that most people chose to eat an omnivorous diet, and, in most cases, their ''choices'' have a lot to do with habit and tradition. Not to mention most parents basically shove meat down their children's throats since they are little, so it's not surprising that so many people eat meat.
What our ancestors did doesn't even matter. Yes, most of them ate meat. So what?! They were primitives, and they actually ate meat for survival. The addictive substances found in meat kept humans hooked on meat, even after plant foods became more available to them, and that would explain why they didn't give up meat once it was no longer a matter of survival.
Deer eat meat, chimps eat meat, hippos eat meat, horses eat meat, cows eat meat... And cats eat plant foods. Should we label them all ''omnivores''? Of course not! Now, let's face it, choosing to eat like an omnivore is not the same thing as being a natural omnivore. According to our anatomical design, we are natural frugivores (herbivores who are designed to eat mostly fruits), no matter how hard you try to deny it.
http://www.www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=431992590163856&set=a.308248069204976.86189.100000593562775&type=30 -
I had an argument with some people recently about the way vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters view eachother. A girl had posted a long list of 'stupid stuff meat eaters say', which included a lot of arguments for why people can and do eat meat. While I, after a lot of thinking, can see their side of the argument, they refuse to accept that meat eating is a choice and that 'there is no excuse for it'. She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it, the vegan foods that contain more iron etc than meat, how meat is only bad for our health, etc. etc. These people I spoke to would also go on to say that meat eaters are angry towards vegetarians and vegans because we 'can't accept the truth', whereas it's their forceful opinion and absolute certainty that they are right that annoys me. Surely there are benefits to eating meat? Otherwise 95% of the population wouldnt' be eating it.
While I agree that the way we harvest meat is unethical, I personally wouldn't stop eating it simply because I like eating meat and fish.
I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say about this argument. I'm also wondering if there really ARE any actual benefits of meat that we truly can't get from anything else.
You really have to define the argument you want to talk about more carefully. There are several possibilities:
Are humans carnivores? Answer No. we are herbivores. This is demonstrated by our physiology, dentition and history. Can we eat meat? Yes, a wolf or a tiger can also eat berries. That does not make them herbivores. As for whether we are omnivores, virtually all animals are omnivores in the sense that they CAN eat both meat and vegetables. Omnivore is not a valid classification in my opinion.
Does eating meat harm you? There are many many stufies that show that eating meat can cause occlusion of the arteries, obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health problems. There is not one single study that shows that eating vegetables can harm you. None. Nada Nichts
Are there moral issues? Of course. If you believe in the Golden Rule, then you are a hypocrite if you eat dead animals. If you claim you are an environmentalist, you are a hypocrite unless you are vegetarian. If you claim you like animals then....well you get the picture.
So do you want to talk about health issues, moral issues, scientific evidence or whatever? Define what you want to discuiss.0 -
Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.
It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.
yes, but where does this cow get it's food? from acres upon acres of corn and what not that has been cultivated for them rather than to feed humans. Land wouldn't be a problem if we turned the land we are farming to feed livestock to feed humans
The point is the surface area of ground you would need to plant enough food would be so much greater. In a cow, you can store a lot more food (calorie/nutrition density) than the value of where it's 4 hooves are planted than using that same area for veg.
Again, exactly what i wonder about. Think about the 5% population on a vegan diet now compared to adding another 95% on top of that. Living room is already scarce, let alone farmland.
This link below gives you some idea of the complexity of this topic, but even the most conservative estimates indicate that it takes 2 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of meat. Other factors to consider: water, biological waste, transportation, electricity.
http://www.extension.org/pages/35850/on-average-how-many-pounds-of-corn-make-one-pound-of-beef-assuming-an-all-grain-diet-from-backgroundi0 -
Most animals don't gnaw through fur and hide, either. That's why they have claws. Biting serves to hold prey immobile, claws will rip it open so they can get to the good stuff inside. Look at a domestic cat for an easy to see example. A cat will bite a toy (or prey) and use their mouth and front paws to immobilize it, and then use their rear claws to shred it open.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
Eating a rare steak is in no way comprable to gnawing through fur, hide and ripping raw flesh from an animal.
Also, smoked salmon is not raw, although raw salmon is pretty tasty, especially if you have wasabi.0 -
Well, I can't speak for anyone else but I have my steak still bleeding and my salmon smoked, not cooked. Our teeth becoming less effective is a direct result of developing the ability to cook, as is the deterioration of function of our appendix.I'd like to see you use your canines to rip open an animal with hide and all. Human's do not "rip flesh" we cook it, but it with a knife and chew it. ....sorry the canine thing just always makes me laugh.
The people I spoke to were saying how our 'canines' resemble those of horses more than of actual carnivores.
A lot of wild predatory animals don't eat the skin or fur either. It tends to be scavenger specialists that perform that job - hyenas for example have ridiculously strong bites - more powerful than the lions that provide some of their meals.Eating a rare steak is in no way comprable to gnawing through fur, hide and ripping raw flesh from an animal.
Also, smoked salmon is not raw, although raw salmon is pretty tasty, especially if you have wasabi.
I think we began as scavengers and, as I said before, our brains developed to allow us to build the tools used in both killing and probably slicing up meat for us to be able to eat.0 -
I'm a non-judgmental meat eater. I don't eat cow because I don't like it, I think it would be detrimental to my diet and a cow is just too big and creepy for me to feel good about eating it. I'd like to cut out pig, as well. I understand vegetarians' reasons for not eating meat, I just don't share them.
Veganism, however, is totally different to me... I understand veganism for health reasons or if you honestly hate eggs and dairy, but let's be real here. Chickens will always make eggs. Cows, in the right hormonal state, will always make milk. Local farmers and cage-free cruelty-free non-local farmers will always exist. You can easily be non-vegan without hurting animals, you just have to be willing to invest in farmers who keep their chickens vegetarian-fed and cage-free and keep their cows hormone and cruelty-free. Veganism seems like it would cost a little extra anyway, so why not redirect that cost towards farmers who are actually doing right by their animals? It just seems a little jerky to me.
I live in Maine, though, so all I see are the local farmers who could use our help. They don't harm their animals, their chickens are free-range and their cows aren't treated with hormones. It kind of defeats the argument for ethical veganism, to me.0 -
I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?0 -
one day you're going to have to take a stand. Those vegans are out there! They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity or remorse and they absolutely WILL NOT STOP... until you read their vegiblog.I eat meat and I love it... that's about as much of a "debate" as you'll get out of me. I mean, if someone's going to be vegan, just make sure they're getting well-rounded nutrients and proteins! If someone (like me) loves meat, make sure not to eat in excess.
Because of my dairy allergy I *AM* forced to use vegan margarine. I guess we can connect over that one. Hahahahaha.
But no, I don't debate it. Although I haven't known many people to stay with a vegan lifestyle for super long. Kudos to those who can do it with balance and good health!0 -
I had an argument with some people recently about the way vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters view eachother. A girl had posted a long list of 'stupid stuff meat eaters say', which included a lot of arguments for why people can and do eat meat. While I, after a lot of thinking, can see their side of the argument, they refuse to accept that meat eating is a choice and that 'there is no excuse for it'. She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it, the vegan foods that contain more iron etc than meat, how meat is only bad for our health, etc. etc. These people I spoke to would also go on to say that meat eaters are angry towards vegetarians and vegans because we 'can't accept the truth', whereas it's their forceful opinion and absolute certainty that they are right that annoys me. Surely there are benefits to eating meat? Otherwise 95% of the population wouldnt' be eating it.
While I agree that the way we harvest meat is unethical, I personally wouldn't stop eating it simply because I like eating meat and fish.
I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say about this argument. I'm also wondering if there really ARE any actual benefits of meat that we truly can't get from anything else.
You really have to define the argument you want to talk about more carefully. There are several possibilities:
Are humans carnivores? Answer No. we are herbivores. This is demonstrated by our physiology, dentition and history. Can we eat meat? Yes, a wolf or a tiger can also eat berries. That does not make them herbivores. As for whether we are omnivores, virtually all animals are omnivores in the sense that they CAN eat both meat and vegetables. Omnivore is not a valid classification in my opinion.
Does eating meat harm you? There are many many stufies that show that eating meat can cause occlusion of the arteries, obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health problems. There is not one single study that shows that eating vegetables can harm you. None. Nada Nichts
Are there moral issues? Of course. If you believe in the Golden Rule, then you are a hypocrite if you eat dead animals. If you claim you are an environmentalist, you are a hypocrite unless you are vegetarian. If you claim you like animals then....well you get the picture.
So do you want to talk about health issues, moral issues, scientific evidence or whatever? Define what you want to discuiss.
Everything and anything surrounding this issue. Talking with the people I spoke to a few days ago brought a LOT of things to my attention that i'd never even thought about before. And this is exactly the example I posted a few minutes ago (the example post of why humans aren't omnivores)0 -
Throwing this out there. I just wanted to thank the OP for staying with the topic and encouraging productive discussion. Thanks!0
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No plant based foods contain B12 or cholesterol (which is needed to make testosterone and estrogen). Other than that, it just comes down to personal choice of whether or not you want to be vegan or a meat eater.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer/Group Fitness Instructor
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This is true, but it is easily supplemented. I would also point out that recently, many health practitioners advise all people over 50 to take B12 supplements whether they eat animal products, or not. Why? The human body has a difficult time extracting the B12 from the dietary sources and requires intrinsic factor to do it.
And as for cholesterol, our livers make it in abundance.0 -
one day you're going to have to take a stand. Those vegans are out there! They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity or remorse and they absolutely WILL NOT STOP... until you read their vegiblog.I eat meat and I love it... that's about as much of a "debate" as you'll get out of me. I mean, if someone's going to be vegan, just make sure they're getting well-rounded nutrients and proteins! If someone (like me) loves meat, make sure not to eat in excess.
Because of my dairy allergy I *AM* forced to use vegan margarine. I guess we can connect over that one. Hahahahaha.
But no, I don't debate it. Although I haven't known many people to stay with a vegan lifestyle for super long. Kudos to those who can do it with balance and good health!
I C WUT U DID THAR0 -
Wow, not a single thing stated there is true. Of course, I've never seen a cow or horse eat meat, and cats don't actually eat plants, they chew on them to clean their teeth, and if they swallow it, they immediately puke it back up because they can't digest it. As someone else already mentioned, are eyes are on the front of our heads, rather than the sides, which is a purely predatory/carnivorous adaptation. Then add in the fact that the human digestive system is actually better equipped to digest animal products than it is to digest plant matter, and it's fairly obvious that humans are meant to eat a combination of meat and plants.
Humans have a digestive enzyme that breaks down animal proteins. If you don't eat meat, the human body, being highly practical, stops making the enzyme, since it isn't needed. When you start eating meat again, it starts making the enzyme again. It takes a bit of time for the enzyme to be made, of course, which is why people switching from vegan diets to omni diets need to introduce meat slowly. On the other hand, there are plants that humans don't have the ability to create digestive enzymes for. That's what the bacteria in the colon is for. Humans are very well adapted to eat all types of food, the true definition of omnivore.My husband was raised vegan and now eats meat, as do his brothers. My inlaws still don't eat meat but they have started eating some dairy so now I guess they are classified as vegetarians. They eat yogurt, cheese and ice cream that's real milk but don't drink cows milk. I grew up eating meat and still do lol.
What about when people say that people can't eat meat after being raised vegan because they're unable to digest meat? This obviously suggests otherwise.
The people I spoke to who inspired this thread would get really ANGRY at humans calling themselves 'omnivores'.
Here's an example of one of her posts about 'omnivores':
Technically, humans are not ''omnivores''. The fact that most people eat both plant foods and meat on a regular basis is not ''proof'' that humans are ''omnivores'' - it just means that most people chose to eat an omnivorous diet, and, in most cases, their ''choices'' have a lot to do with habit and tradition. Not to mention most parents basically shove meat down their children's throats since they are little, so it's not surprising that so many people eat meat.
What our ancestors did doesn't even matter. Yes, most of them ate meat. So what?! They were primitives, and they actually ate meat for survival. The addictive substances found in meat kept humans hooked on meat, even after plant foods became more available to them, and that would explain why they didn't give up meat once it was no longer a matter of survival.
Deer eat meat, chimps eat meat, hippos eat meat, horses eat meat, cows eat meat... And cats eat plant foods. Should we label them all ''omnivores''? Of course not! Now, let's face it, choosing to eat like an omnivore is not the same thing as being a natural omnivore. According to our anatomical design, we are natural frugivores (herbivores who are designed to eat mostly fruits), no matter how hard you try to deny it.
http://www.www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=431992590163856&set=a.308248069204976.86189.100000593562775&type=30 -
This thread has turned over into talking about the biology of being an omnivore. I doubt anyone believes humans are not omnivores. Can we get back to the original topic? The point was that it's a choice because of the technology we have.0
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I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions
Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?
Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.0
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