Polygamy, Your thoughts.
Replies
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FYI: As person who's belief systems allows this (Islam), I would like to teach the reasons behind. First of all, in my belief system, less than 1-2% of the males practice in the entire world...so polygamy is not "in". You have to ask the first wife's permission to be able to marry a second wife and so on and so forth (the limit is 4). You have to treat them the same financially and emotionally. These are very strict beliefs to follow and you have to maintain them. Off course adding to your family in this way is very expensive and so you have to afford it.
The history behind polygamy in my belief system (Islam) was that during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon you), there was a war that left many women without their husbands as they died in the war. At this time women did not work like men (this is in the 600 AD time frame) so to give these women a home emotionally and financially, God allowed marriage up to 4 women.
EDIT: The men to woman ratio during the war had was starkly dropped. there weren't enough men to marry these women individually.
In my opinion, polygamy is not for me and not practiced by most Muslim for the reasons listed above. It has nothing to do with making women second class citizens.0 -
If someone has multiple wives and children; can the male (and wives) in the house hold take care of all of them.
Do they get social aid?
If they divorce will he be able to pay child support and provide health care for the wives and children.
Are all the wives of leagal ages?
Which of the wives gets his social security? and retirement funds.
Too many unanswered questions for me.
So you're saying the reason the government shouldn't allow it is because if not, these government programs (that *many* don't agree with in the first place) will be hard to keep straight. Yes, that's a GREAT reason why people can't practice religion. Government assistance would be SO hard to keep from getting stretched.
As for the social security/retirement funds, those are HIS (or her) dollars -- he should be able to give them to however many people he wants.
This is only an issue because the goverment feels it necessary to regulate marriage in the first place. Why?0 -
Each to their own :-)0
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FYI: As person who's belief systems allows this (Islam), I would like to teach the reasons behind. First of all, in my belief system, less than 1-2% of the males practice in the entire world...so polygamy is not "in". You have to ask the first wife's permission to be able to marry a second wife and so on and so forth (the limit is 4). You have to treat them the same financially and emotionally. These are very strict beliefs to follow and you have to maintain them. Off course adding to your family in this way is very expensive and so you have to afford it.
The history behind polygamy in my belief system (Islam) was that during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon you), there was a war that left many women without their husbands as they died in the war. At this time women did not work like men (this is in the 600 AD time frame) so to give these women a home emotionally and financially, God allowed marriage up to 4 women.
EDIT: The men to woman ratio during the war had was starkly dropped. there weren't enough men to marry these women individually.
In my opinion, polygamy is not for me and not practiced by most Muslim for the reasons listed above. It has nothing to do with making women second class citizens.
Quick question, in Islam, isn't the man basically the boss (he can discipline his wife if necessary, etc)? So wouldn't "her permission" be like me asking one of my children for permission?0 -
FYI: As person who's belief systems allows this (Islam), I would like to teach the reasons behind. First of all, in my belief system, less than 1-2% of the males practice in the entire world...so polygamy is not "in". You have to ask the first wife's permission to be able to marry a second wife and so on and so forth (the limit is 4). You have to treat them the same financially and emotionally. These are very strict beliefs to follow and you have to maintain them. Off course adding to your family in this way is very expensive and so you have to afford it.
The history behind polygamy in my belief system (Islam) was that during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon you), there was a war that left many women without their husbands as they died in the war. At this time women did not work like men (this is in the 600 AD time frame) so to give these women a home emotionally and financially, God allowed marriage up to 4 women.
EDIT: The men to woman ratio during the war had was starkly dropped. there weren't enough men to marry these women individually.
In my opinion, polygamy is not for me and not practiced by most Muslim for the reasons listed above. It has nothing to do with making women second class citizens.
Quick question, in Islam, isn't the man basically the boss (he can discipline his wife if necessary, etc)? So wouldn't "her permission" be like me asking one of my children for permission?0 -
Each to their own...
.....as long as it doesn't harm anyone or force anyone to do something they do not want to do then do whatever floats your boat. If the polygamists are like that family on TV (Sister Wives) and they are just a big family that love one another truly and let their children be their own people and make their own life choices then who am I to judge?
I draw the line at people who force their children into their beliefs or it is more of a cult... I hate hearing about 13 year olds being married off to 40 year old men. That is wrong.0 -
My answer didn't post on the previous one. No, the man is not the "boss" in Islam and he cannot discipline her with hitting or beating. If anything he needs to communicate with his wife first with verbal language.FYI: As person who's belief systems allows this (Islam), I would like to teach the reasons behind. First of all, in my belief system, less than 1-2% of the males practice in the entire world...so polygamy is not "in". You have to ask the first wife's permission to be able to marry a second wife and so on and so forth (the limit is 4). You have to treat them the same financially and emotionally. These are very strict beliefs to follow and you have to maintain them. Off course adding to your family in this way is very expensive and so you have to afford it.
The history behind polygamy in my belief system (Islam) was that during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon you), there was a war that left many women without their husbands as they died in the war. At this time women did not work like men (this is in the 600 AD time frame) so to give these women a home emotionally and financially, God allowed marriage up to 4 women.
EDIT: The men to woman ratio during the war had was starkly dropped. there weren't enough men to marry these women individually.
In my opinion, polygamy is not for me and not practiced by most Muslim for the reasons listed above. It has nothing to do with making women second class citizens.
Quick question, in Islam, isn't the man basically the boss (he can discipline his wife if necessary, etc)? So wouldn't "her permission" be like me asking one of my children for permission?0 -
Umm first thousands might be stretching it.There are thousands of known polygamists in the state of Utah. Overwhelmingly Mormon/FLDS. Listen to some of the stories of kids (usually teenagers/young adults) trying to escape this lifestyle (which is made very, very difficult) and then think about it again. 90% of these people have been physically or sexually abused. Education is actively discouraged in these communities. Thousands and thousands of people in Utah alone. It isn't a few crazies living in a tent village in the desert.
It's about far more than 'what people do behind closed doors'.
Thousands isn't stretching it. I'm not in the habit of making up statistics, but the one I most recently read was 30,000 if you prefer more precision (holdingouthelp.org).
As I mentioned before, Mormonism was brought into the discussion by multiple mentions of the show "Sister Wives" (which I've never actually seen), about a family who self-identify as Mormons.Second no Mormons have more than one wife. Sects that broke away from them allow it still like the FLDS, but that's like saying Jews take communion.
I don't mean to suggest that all of the problems I mentioned are due exclusively to these communities being polygamist and there are no other factors-- that would be daft. I think it is equally daft, however, to suggest there can be no correlation at all.Third the educational discouragement, the entrapment of those seeking to get out, and the forceful removal of the "extra" males, are more a religious things than due to the fact that they have multiple wives.
Oh and no I'm not Mormon. I just know hundreds of em.0 -
There are several problems with polygamy (and polyandry). But I don't care to play professor, you can research the topic more if it really interests you.
Instead I would like to ask...
are there any non-religious polygamists out there? Really? I, personally, have never heard of any so I'm just curious.
While technically, they are "religious," their polyamory isn't related to their religion, but yes, there are many who are poly and it has nothing to do with their religion. I personally know at least half a dozen or so (none of which have overlapping partners). In case you're also interested, the ones I know the most detail about are 1 woman-2+ men, and/or "tree-and-branch" style, where there's a main pair, and they each have a secondary (and the secondaries aren't intimate with the other primary).0 -
that's all i need in my house ... TWO guys sitting on the couch playing videogames.
Hah, I'm with you there. I already feel like I'm picking up after two teenagers, and I don't have any, but between my 2-year-old and my husband, it feels that way!0 -
There are several problems with polygamy (and polyandry). But I don't care to play professor, you can research the topic more if it really interests you.
Instead I would like to ask...
are there any non-religious polygamists out there? Really? I, personally, have never heard of any so I'm just curious.
While technically, they are "religious," their polyamory isn't related to their religion, but yes, there are many who are poly and it has nothing to do with their religion. I personally know at least half a dozen or so (none of which have overlapping partners). In case you're also interested, the ones I know the most detail about are 1 woman-2+ men, and/or "tree-and-branch" style, where there's a main pair, and they each have a secondary (and the secondaries aren't intimate with the other primary).
Polyamory isn't exactly the same as polygamy. The partners don't usually commit in the same way.
I usually separate polyamory and polygamy in my head because polygamy (wherein marriage to multiple partners is involved) is usually religiously motivated whereas polyamory is not. It's like the polygamy for non-religious folk. 0 -
Imagine being able to have many husbands who are skilled in different trades! Things might finally get done around a house :P
Ha ha ha ha. That was my thought.0 -
I say go for it!
I would want one wife to be rich, and one who has OCD and loves to clean...
I would get to pick the wives too, because I'm the first wife.
How can I go wrong? lol0 -
Hey it seems to work for the "Sister Wives". I'm all for it, I have no problem sharing my husband. Please take him......:bigsmile:0
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I very strongly disagree with this because it generalizes all polygamy as religious polygamy. That's an unfair thing to do because many religions raise women to believe they are inferior to men anyway, regardless of whether or not that religion includes polygamy. Take Christianity, for example.The reason you could not share your husband ... you were raised with the "notion" that it's OK for a woman to have a positive sense of self worth. It's OK for you to feel that your are equal to a man.
Girls raised in polygamy are not taught this. If a woman who share's her husband is jealous ... the woman has a problem. She's the bad guy. It's not like "Big Love" ... girls raised in this environment are taught they are second class citizens.
From my personal non-religious experiences with polyamory (I'm too young to have an opinion on the marriage-based lifestyle of polygamy), men and women are equal. A poly woman can be with as many people as she can sustain an intimate and meaningful connection with, just as a poly man can be. The sense of equality, liberty, and appreciation for my partner that I feel in a poly relationship is far stronger, to me, than it is in a monogamous relationship. I've watched so many monogamous couples fight, ignore each other, put each other down, even resort to violence over "he looked at another girl, she's texting another guy, I don't trust you around (insert person), I found your porn stash; am I not good enough for you?" and so on, and so forth. That's not healthy behavior and that's definitely not something that screams "positive sense of self-worth" to me.
It just baffles me how little some people actually appreciate each other because they're too busy "punishing" each other for not living up to expectations that I honestly find a little unrealistic. I mean, your SO was interested in other people before they met you, they're going to be interested in other people if and when the relationship ends, but suddenly they're with you and they're not supposed to have an interest in anyone else ever? That just seems bogus to me.
This is all my opinion, and I respect yours, but please don't try to assert that people make the life choices they make because they were never "taught better than that". :flowerforyou:0 -
I feel lucky I was born in america, I feel lucky I was raised Wiccan and not brainwashed by a Christian family - there's many who don't agree with that. Everyone will never agree on everything.
So you were brainwashed by a Wiccan family instead.
this0 -
I've thought about this for a while to be honest, if all people in the marriage are happy and of age, then whats the problem? Why not let them live the way they want to? I know in my heart that i could never share my husband, but i see some positives in polygamy. The large, helpful, tight knit family. Think of all the help you would have? What are your thoughts? Cause people seem to think im crazy when i say i don't have a problem with polygamy.
There's no problem with it. Unfortunately and despite the fact that one of our country's founding principles was freedom of religion this country is governed by Christians and their faith greatly influences our laws unfortunately. Until we get open-minded un-religous-biased bureaucrats then we will always have issues with things like polygamy and gay marriage. Neither hurts anybody but Christians false-sense of morality.0 -
I don't agree with it at all. I feel, that if you want, a big close knit family, you could have your siblings and their families live with you, and you could also have more kids or adopt.
i feel that polygamy is sexist, and I am an old fashioned girl saying that! It's repulsive, to me. to each his own.0 -
I don't agree with it at all. I feel, that if you want, a big close knit family, you could have your siblings and their families live with you, and you could also have more kids or adopt.
i feel that polygamy is sexist, and I am an old fashioned girl saying that! It's repulsive, to me. to each his own.
But you won't likely have more kids with a single woman than you would multiple women. If the man and the spouses are good with the relationship then why is it a problem? Having your siblings and families live with you isn't any easier of relationship to manage than having multiple wives. Is polygamy so much a problem that it should be illegal?0 -
I'm coming in late to the conversation but here is my opinion. I grew up Mormon. Like, modern day mormon AKA LDS (the non polygamy kind) and because of this I've always grown up believing polygamy was wrong. The thought of it made me sick to my stomach. I struggled with the fact that it was ever a part of my churches history I hated it so much. Today as an adult with life experiences and my own independent thoughts I have come to see it in a different light.
There is one form of polygamy I am absolutely against and one I have no problem with. The one I have no problem with is modern day polygamy between consenting ADULTS. If you've ever seen the show Sister Wives you can use that as an example. Would I ever do it? No. Do they drive me crazy with their insane family situation? Yes! But they all agreed to the arrangement so who cares.
The polygamy I have a problem with is the private compounds that marry girls off the moment they have their periods whether even if they are as young as 8. The women are not allowed basic rights, they are abused mentally and physically and essentially brain washed. That way of polygamy is a disgusting crime.
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Do what makes you happy0
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Personally, I do not wish to engage in that lifestyle, but I have no problem with it as long as all parties involved are consenting adults and no abuse, negligence, or other such activity is occurring. Basically, the same rules should apply to polygamist relationships as apply to monogamous marriages. I feel the same way about gay marriage.
Adults should be allowed to marry who they wish and live as they wish.0 -
Personally, i prefer monogamy; however, i believe the marriage should simply be the union of consenting adults. no specific number, no specific genders have to be involved, but so long as all members are consenting then i have no quarrels with that.
on top of that, i'm also a fan of consistency in law. i find it strange that polygamy is illegal when things like cheating, having mistresses, and orgies are not illegal (i'm not saying cheating is a good thing, but it DOES seem strange that it isn't considered illegal, while the marriage of 3+ consenting adults is)0 -
As long as everyone involved is doing it of their own free will, are of a legal age to make those decisions and are not being mistreated -- then to each their own. *I* wouldn't be okay with sharing my significant other with another woman, but who am I to judge someone else's lifestyle.
It isn't my business what goes on in someone's home. I wouldn't want people nosing around and judging my lifestyle, so why should I nose around in and judge someone else?0 -
i find it strange that polygamy is illegal when things like cheating, having mistresses, and orgies are not illegal (i'm not saying cheating is a good thing, but it DOES seem strange that it isn't considered illegal, while the marriage of 3+ consenting adults is)
Sex is mostly irrelevant to legal modern marriage. It's more about property rights, legal responsibilities for any children no matter how they come about, inheritance, shared assets, default paternity of children, and so on. Polygamy is illegal because it's a socially destabilizing force in large numbers, as I posted earlier.0 -
There are several problems with polygamy (and polyandry). But I don't care to play professor, you can research the topic more if it really interests you.
Instead I would like to ask...
are there any non-religious polygamists out there? Really? I, personally, have never heard of any so I'm just curious.
While technically, they are "religious," their polyamory isn't related to their religion, but yes, there are many who are poly and it has nothing to do with their religion. I personally know at least half a dozen or so (none of which have overlapping partners). In case you're also interested, the ones I know the most detail about are 1 woman-2+ men, and/or "tree-and-branch" style, where there's a main pair, and they each have a secondary (and the secondaries aren't intimate with the other primary).
Polyamory isn't exactly the same as polygamy. The partners don't usually commit in the same way.
I usually separate polyamory and polygamy in my head because polygamy (wherein marriage to multiple partners is involved) is usually religiously motivated whereas polyamory is not. It's like the polygamy for non-religious folk.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory (for reference):Polyamory (from Greek πολύ [poly, meaning many or several] and Latin amor [love]) is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved.
Polyamory is a less specific term than polygamy, the practice or condition of having more than one spouse.
That's pretty much the definition I go by. Or, to put it another way - all polygamist people are polyamorous, but not all polyamorous people are polygamist.
Given that "bona fide" polygamy is illegal in the US, and that not all people who identify as poly would actually marry even if it was an option, and that polygamy has a connotation of "one man, many wives" (regardless of the actual definition), I find polyamory a better, less controversial term that still adequately describes consensual poly relationships. Also, just like with monogamous relationships, poly ones don't always include marriage (either by choice to never marry, or because they're not ready to marry yet), so, since polyamory is the less specific term, it encompasses both the married and non-married groups. Yes, there is a technical difference (because "true" polygamy requires an actual marriage, either religious or legal), but in the practical sense (particularly in the US and other countries where civil marriage to more than one person is illegal), and in the context of this thread, they're essentially the same (imo).
That said, the poly people I know are in long term commitments with all of their partners. So, regardless of whether they have a Reverend's blessing or a marriage contract, their relationships aren't something like "married to person A, but get the occasional hookup with person B once or twice a month," but rather "legally married to person A, and in a long-term, dating relationship with person B." If that makes more sense.
Also, to fit your connotation of polygamy vs polyamory, you might want to look into the various indigenous tribes of Africa, South America, and Australia. You'll probably find them there, where "true" polygamy is legal. Whether you consider them religious or not is up to you, though.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that poly* was written into religions for various non-religious reasons, usually relating to reproduction and the ongoing existence of the societal unit. If it's written into the society's bylaws (be they a secular document or a religious one) that it's kosher to have more than one spouse, then the society can reap the benefits of a man siring children with several women (increasing the number of pregnancies at any given time, which helps offset the mortality rate), and can encourage the communal upbringing of the children (as well as a way of sharing resources and taking care of each other), which increases their survival rate. This was obviously a good thing for tribes/societies up to as recently as the Middle Ages, if not the Industrial Revolution.
And for a...more primal...reason, there's biological evidence that not all of us are predisposed to monogamous tendencies (iirc, it seems there are some correlations between testicle size relative to the penis and male mono vs poly tendencies among our fellow Great Apes, and since we fall basically at the median, it's more or less a coin toss; can't remember where I found that, though). Assuming this is true, then roughly half of the world's men have poly tendencies, and since men are the ones that are usually in leadership positions, it would benefit the poly-leaning leaders for their society to condone poly practices.0 -
If it's written into the society's bylaws (be they a secular document or a religious one) that it's kosher to have more than one spouse, then the society can reap the benefits of a man siring children with several women (increasing the number of pregnancies at any given time, which helps offset the mortality rate), and can encourage the communal upbringing of the children (as well as a way of sharing resources and taking care of each other), which increases their survival rate. This was obviously a good thing for tribes/societies up to as recently as the Middle Ages, if not the Industrial Revolution.
There are benefits, but also drawbacks.
It makes sense when there is a shortage of men compared to the women, be it from plague or starvation or war. The smaller the society, the more easily such a thing could happen. Imagine you are the leader of an ancient city of 10,000 people, and suddenly 1,000 men die in a battle, leaving 4,000 men and 5,000 women. You better define some laws for controlling polygamy, because it will happen, otherwise there's gonna be even more chaos when it's left uncontrolled.
Each man with an additional wife, produces another man with zero. Let's say in that city, 3,000 men have one wife, and 1,000 have two. That means you have 1,000 men who have nothing. You think 1,000 single guys are gonna just sit around quietly and never get laid again?
When applied broadly to a large society where the sexes are roughly equal population, polygamy as policy produces a surplus of single men, which tend to turn into gangs and break stuff. That's why you don't see poly being legally sanctioned in any sort of large-scale stable society. The amount of unmarried men then builds to the point of being a problem.0 -
I'm coming in late to the conversation but here is my opinion. I grew up Mormon. Like, modern day mormon AKA LDS (the non polygamy kind) and because of this I've always grown up believing polygamy was wrong. The thought of it made me sick to my stomach. I struggled with the fact that it was ever a part of my churches history I hated it so much. Today as an adult with life experiences and my own independent thoughts I have come to see it in a different light.
There is one form of polygamy I am absolutely against and one I have no problem with. The one I have no problem with is modern day polygamy between consenting ADULTS. If you've ever seen the show Sister Wives you can use that as an example. Would I ever do it? No. Do they drive me crazy with their insane family situation? Yes! But they all agreed to the arrangement so who cares.
The polygamy I have a problem with is the private compounds that marry girls off the moment they have their periods whether even if they are as young as 8. The women are not allowed basic rights, they are abused mentally and physically and essentially brain washed. That way of polygamy is a disgusting crime.
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i am a member of the church too. and i see it how you see it. i0 -
There are thousands of known polygamists in the state of Utah. Overwhelmingly Mormon/FLDS. Listen to some of the stories of kids (usually teenagers/young adults) trying to escape this lifestyle (which is made very, very difficult) and then think about it again. 90% of these people have been physically or sexually abused. Education is actively discouraged in these communities. Thousands and thousands of people in Utah alone. It isn't a few crazies living in a tent village in the desert.
It's about far more than 'what people do behind closed doors'.
Hmmm. I think you are connecting two things that don't neccessarily need to be connected. Polygamy can exist outside a cult setting in which child abuse happens.
Just like prostitution can exist outside of child prostitution. Prostitution is legal in one county in Nevada and brothels are up and running. Its definitely not the same as sex trafficking or child prostitution that is forced upon people against their will.
I think in both cases, the difference is one scenario is consenting adults (adult prostitution, adult polygamy) and the other is a situation of abuse/coercion/lack of consent. I agree with you that children should not be treated as you describe. But I don't think that really has anything to do with polygamy, per se.
The frame of reference for much of this discussion has been "Sister Wives" ... which is about a Mormon polygamist family. I did specify in my post that this is what I was referring to.
you can't be Mormon and be a polygamist. members of the church are not allowed to stay members AND practice polygamy!!! there are groups that branched away from the church when polygamy was no longer to be practiced. these groups are NOT Mormons. they might still keep the letters LDS in their "name" but they are NOT a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter -day Saints.0 -
When applied broadly to a large society where the sexes are roughly equal population, polygamy as policy produces a surplus of single men, which tend to turn into gangs and break stuff.
Heee... HEE.
Because single men always turn to crime, especially in large numbers!0
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