Polygamy, Your thoughts.

spartangirl79

But we are a society focused on the freedoms of the individual, our right to pursue happiness. We do not view ourselves as a collective in this country. The rights of the individual have always been upheld as very important, at least in the U.S.

This is my only point of contention. We all have an obligation to protect the children. We cannot just say that how children are raised is only the business of the parents. I don't know that children being raised by homosexual or polygamist parents are harmed psychologically. I'm not suggesting they are. I'm saying we don't know yet.

Not responding to the children of polygamists (I doubt these are studied as much because polygamy is more taboo and more regionalized, from what I gather), but since you asked:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-07/health/lesbian.children.adjustment_1_psychological-adjustment-advocacy-groups-lesbian-households?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/gay-study-083010.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peggy-drexler/the-kids-are-alright-gay_b_1539166.html

And on and on...

ONE03

i'm fine with it as well as long as all parties involved are ok with it. there once was a man who i really looked up to who started having polyamorous relationships, and his wife went along with it. that ended up in a divorce and him shirking off all responsibilty for his 2 kids. lost so much respect for him. i pretty much think he used the polygamy angle to make himself look good while having affairs and branch swinging.

focus4fitness

If you can marry as many people as you like legally, I don’t get the point of having legalized marriage at all anymore. There are benefits and protections to being married that would be greatly devalued if our current 2 party contract system were changed. Taxes, social security, death benefits, divorce, etc. If people want to live in family groups, hey great, more power to you, but its so outside of our current legal system if we are at a point in America where we think people should be able to legally marry many other people we should simply toss out our current system and adopt a new one or have none at all. (as far as government recognized marriages go)

Also I know the popular thing to say lately is the government should stay out of everything, but I don’t know if that would be a comforting sentiment to me if I found out my spouse was legally married to multiple other women that I was unaware of. lol

Or I guess for some people their spouse could be legally married to multiple men and women that they were unaware of.

macpatti

Not responding to the children of polygamists (I doubt these are studied as much because polygamy is more taboo and more regionalized, from what I gather), but since you asked:
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-07/health/lesbian.children.adjustment_1_psychological-adjustment-advocacy-groups-lesbian-households?_s=PM:HEALTH
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/gay-study-083010.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peggy-drexler/the-kids-are-alright-gay_b_1539166.htmlAnd on and on...

Thanks for these! I have read a few of these before. I think a greater number of samples and more impact studies done on adults raised by homosexual parents will be helpful for those against it. I know Brett thinks studies are useless, but studies like this can actually help some people realize that what they thought were issues may not really be.

macpatti

Just because something was put in place 50+ years ago doesn't mean it should still be the way things work today...

I never made this claim, nor do I believe it to be the case.

xarge

Its treated like a double standard. Its ok for men to have several women....that's been going on since before ancient time..... but its looked upon as disgusting to have one woman with several men. Not MY double standard.....but it exists. We still have a long way to go to achieve total equality.

Polyandry is still practiced, though less common than polygyny because the practice in essence originates from matriarchal societies which are almost non-existent since the Western civilization is essentially patriarchal like most animal species, while preaching "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.". Most commonly practiced religions also prohibit polyandry while some permit polygyny. To top it all, the most common intuition from women to the discussion of polygamy is that they won't share their men.

I think with so many contradictions, we failed at some point as species once again, as we did in so many aspects.

StrongerJess

I live in Utah. We have some polygamists in our community. They are great neighbors. They are not Mormon like some people have implied. They keep to themselves and have very well-behaved children. I see nothing different about them except that they don't wear much makeup and always wear very modest, simple clothing.

I think that it's easy for people to judge what they are ignorant about. I don't claim to know much about polygamy at all, but I will say that in my community they are well-adjusted and seem very happy. I wouldn't want them sent to jail for their choice. They are just people like everyone else, and there are far more disgusting practices than polygamy.

futuremalestripper

The reason you could not share your husband ... you were raised with the "notion" that it's OK for a woman to have a positive sense of self worth. It's OK for you to feel that your are equal to a man.

Girls raised in polygamy are not taught this. If a woman who share's her husband is jealous ... the woman has a problem. She's the bad guy. It's not like "Big Love" ... girls raised in this environment are taught they are second class citizens.

that is also how girls are raised in the middle east, even Mexice (the oldest boy of the family gets no discipline and is revered) it's someone else's culture. I feel lucky I was born in america, I feel lucky I was raised Wiccan and not brainwashed by a Christian family - there's many who don't agree with that. Everyone will never agree on everything.

No one in this chat said a woman couldn't have 4 husbands.

spartangirl79

Not responding to the children of polygamists (I doubt these are studied as much because polygamy is more taboo and more regionalized, from what I gather), but since you asked:
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-07/health/lesbian.children.adjustment_1_psychological-adjustment-advocacy-groups-lesbian-households?_s=PM:HEALTH
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/gay-study-083010.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peggy-drexler/the-kids-are-alright-gay_b_1539166.htmlAnd on and on...

Thanks for these! I have read a few of these before. I think a greater number of samples and more impact studies done on adults raised by homosexual parents will be helpful for those against it. I know Brett thinks studies are useless, but studies like this can actually help some people realize that what they thought were issues may not really be.

I tend to agree with Brett, because studies in general are so small that even if they are statistically significant, they simply cannot be applied to EVERY situation because there are always such unique circumstances. The "mom and dad family unit" might be the "gold standard" according to studies in the past, but here's the problem with qualitative studies, especially those that are examning family situations... people lie. They lie for all sorts of reasons, whether to protect their image and make themselves look good to the researcher, or from plain old denial.

I know I grew up in a one mom, one dad family, and it was NOT perfect. I have more issues than the National Geographic library because my family was majorly dysfunctional. If my mom had answered a survey or participated in a study, I bet you those issues would have been minimized or glossed over. Denial is powerful as is the need to lie to oneself about how great things are -- it's natural to protect yourself from reality when things are bad.

I also love that people are using Sister Wives here as an example of a "real" polygamist family. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as the children are not brainwashed that polygamy is expected of them (I watch the show, too, and I feel for the one older daughter who clearly wants nothing to do with the lifestyle when she is old enough to get married) or is the only way to go... however, what people fail to realize is that this is a TELEVISION SHOW, if you look at the credits there are WRITERS on staff -- thus, I imagine more of this than people realize is scripted. Hell, even Pawn Stars is scripted and all they do is follow people around in a Pawn Shop. Reality TV shows are NOT documentaries, folks. And wouldn't you be on your best behavior if you had cameras rolling 24/7? Not to mention you are getting paid for your performance.

Pretty much, the only real documentaries (not reality shows... there is a HUGE difference) are on PBS and obscure independent stations these days, and those are sadly few and far between.

Considering 50% of marriages end in divorce, I find it hard to believe that any study (especially if it is clearly outdated) stating that children fare best with married parents that include one father, one mother, holds any weight whatsoever.

spartangirl79

Just because something was put in place 50+ years ago doesn't mean it should still be the way things work today...

I never made this claim, nor do I believe it to be the case.

I'm just stating that those laws that were created to protect marriage in terms of tax benefits and to encourage procreation/protect children is outdated. I didn't say you said that. However, small-sample qualitative studies should not be the catalyst for social, legal and tax changes, so studies that are extremely subjective and mostly qualitative in nature should not be the deciding factor to instigate shifts in social norms, especially considering that study design and/or sponsorship can greatly influence results.

macpatti

I know I grew up in a one mom, one dad family, and it was NOT perfect. I have more issues than the National Geographic library because my family was majorly dysfunctional. If my mom had answered a survey or participated in a study, I bet you those issues would have been minimized or glossed over.

I was suggesting a study on the lives of adults raised in homes of polygamists. What level of education did they receive? What jobs do they hold? Any criminal records? What types of lifestyles do they lead? etc.

I also love that people are using Sister Wives here as an example of a "real" polygamist family. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as the children are not brainwashed that polygamy is expected of them (I watch the show, too, and I feel for the one older daughter who clearly wants nothing to do with the lifestyle when she is old enough to get married) or is the only way to go... however, what people fail to realize is that this is a TELEVISION SHOW, if you look at the credits there are WRITERS on staff -- thus, I imagine more of this than people realize is scripted. Hell, even Pawn Stars is scripted and all they do is follow people around in a Pawn Shop. Reality TV shows are NOT documentaries, folks. And wouldn't you be on your best behavior if you had cameras rolling 24/7? Not to mention you are getting paid for your performance.

I've never seen the show.

Considering 50% of marriages end in divorce, I find it hard to believe that any study (especially if it is clearly outdated) stating that children fare best with married parents that include one father, one mother, holds any weight whatsoever.

I agree with you. I think a family with a father and mother who have been married forever and love each other unconditionally and have no issues would be ideal for children. We rarely see that anymore. And we've got lots wrong with society.

majones_orl

If someone has multiple wives and children; can the male (and wives) in the house hold take care of all of them.
Do they get social aid?
If they divorce will he be able to pay child support and provide health care for the wives and children.
Are all the wives of leagal ages?
Which of the wives gets his social security? and retirement funds.
Too many unanswered questions for me.

maab_connor

Also I know the popular thing to say lately is the government should stay out of everything, but I don’t know if that would be a comforting sentiment to me if I found out my spouse was legally married to multiple other women that I was unaware of. lol

Or I guess for some people their spouse could be legally married to multiple men and women that they were unaware of.

but that's not poly - that's bigamy. in Poly, everyone is aware and consenting.

tmauck4472

The reason you could not share your husband ... you were raised with the "notion" that it's OK for a woman to have a positive sense of self worth. It's OK for you to feel that your are equal to a man.

Girls raised in polygamy are not taught this. If a woman who share's her husband is jealous ... the woman has a problem. She's the bad guy. It's not like "Big Love" ... girls raised in this environment are taught they are second class citizens.

Somehow I don't believe this is true, maybe for some households but I don't believe all of them. I love love love the Browns. They make it work and are letting their children make up their own minds as to what kind of life they will lead, some say yes they will follow in their parents footsteps and some def. will not follow in their parents footsteps. With that being said, I'm a jealous person and could not stand the though of it, but I wasn't raised in a polygamist household if I would have been I might feel differently.

Jessamine

I've thought about this for a while to be honest, if all people in the marriage are happy and of age, then whats the problem? Why not let them live the way they want to? I know in my heart that i could never share my husband, but i see some positives in polygamy. The large, helpful, tight knit family. Think of all the help you would have? What are your thoughts? Cause people seem to think im crazy when i say i don't have a problem with polygamy.

My husband thinks it's honorable if a man commits to and supports another wife rather than having a mistress on the side that his current wife may not approve of or even know about.

My thoughts are so mixed on the matter... I'm not sure yet.

spartangirl79

I know I grew up in a one mom, one dad family, and it was NOT perfect. I have more issues than the National Geographic library because my family was majorly dysfunctional. If my mom had answered a survey or participated in a study, I bet you those issues would have been minimized or glossed over.

I was suggesting a study on the lives of adults raised in homes of polygamists. What level of education did they receive? What jobs do they hold? Any criminal records? What types of lifestyles do they lead? etc.

I also love that people are using Sister Wives here as an example of a "real" polygamist family. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as the children are not brainwashed that polygamy is expected of them (I watch the show, too, and I feel for the one older daughter who clearly wants nothing to do with the lifestyle when she is old enough to get married) or is the only way to go... however, what people fail to realize is that this is a TELEVISION SHOW, if you look at the credits there are WRITERS on staff -- thus, I imagine more of this than people realize is scripted. Hell, even Pawn Stars is scripted and all they do is follow people around in a Pawn Shop. Reality TV shows are NOT documentaries, folks. And wouldn't you be on your best behavior if you had cameras rolling 24/7? Not to mention you are getting paid for your performance.

I've never seen the show.

Considering 50% of marriages end in divorce, I find it hard to believe that any study (especially if it is clearly outdated) stating that children fare best with married parents that include one father, one mother, holds any weight whatsoever.

I agree with you. I think a family with a father and mother who have been married forever and love each other unconditionally and have no issues would be ideal for children. We rarely see that anymore. And we've got lots wrong with society.

Like I said, since polygamy is even more hushed and taboo than gay couples raising children, I doubt there are as many studies out there -- or, if they exist, they may not be as representative as they could be of the community.

I didn't say you had watched the show, I was speaking in general about the thread as folks were stating "I watch sister wives and polygamy seems fine to me." I don't really have a problem with it except in the truly fundamentalist sects that do force young girls to marry, but basing your opinions on something simply because of a reality show is silly.

I don't see any difference between a family with a father and a mother who love each other and have been married forever, or a mother and a mother that ove each other and have been married forever, or a single mother who works and loves her kid and does the best she can to be a good mother. Just having certain elements in place doesn't guarantee anything, and it doesn't even begin to examine the real influencing factors that affect children as they grow into adults.

I find studies interesting, but I know plenty of kids from all types of families -- some had one parent, some had two, some had gay parents, and just having a mom and dad who love each other and were married forever doesn't ensure that kid is going to grow up and be a happy, well rounded adult. It doesn't matter who is in your house (abusers not included, obviously); what I believe truly influences children's development is the mental and emotional health and wellbeing of the parent(s) and how that is translated into their parenting practices.

Take a look at today's helicopter parents... [disclaimer: not always, but for the sake of the example] you have traditional families (mom and dad, they love each other and love their kid to a fault) yet you have kids with no concept of how to function in the world once they are adults. NPR did a series on helicopter parents and there are parents attending job interviews with their adult children, calling their college professors to argue about their children's grades, and calling HR departments to negotiate benefits for their adult children. These parents would probably tell you they love each other, and love their children more than anything... but just loving each other and loving their kids is not necessarily enough. It's the parenting practices that really shape the children into adults, whether it's one parent, two parents, gay parents, or six parents.

callsitlikeiseeit

I say:

" why the heck would i want more than ONE man to pick up after?'

hubby says:

"why the heck would i want more than ONE woman b**ching at me to pick up after myself'


LOLOLOLOL

BrettPGH

But we are a society focused on the freedoms of the individual, our right to pursue happiness. We do not view ourselves as a collective in this country. The rights of the individual have always been upheld as very important, at least in the U.S.

This is my only point of contention. We all have an obligation to protect the children. We cannot just say that how children are raised is only the business of the parents. I don't know that children being raised by homosexual or polygamist parents are harmed psychologically. I'm not suggesting they are. I'm saying we don't know yet.

Back from lunch Patti (we may need to take this to debate group at some point I'm sure)

Yes we have an obligation to protect children. The issue comes up as "protect" is very loosely defined. I believe strongly that children should be protected from harm and abuse. But being raised by "less than ideal parents as defined by a study" does not equal abuse to me. We can't start pulling kids out of every home we see as not perfect. We just try to help the ones who are being harmed in the very worst ways. Children who are beaten, abused, molested.. and SO many of them slip through the cracks. How could we ever hope to apply rules to every child's development?

Example: I don't think you'd find a single study that says it's beneficial for children to be raised in homes below the poverty level. That's pretty much universally a negative thing, or at the very least not a positive. Do we start pulling kids out of homes earning less than x? Should only the financially well off, as determined by the state, have the option of starting a family? Of course not.

Children are raised in less than ideal homes on a daily basis throughout the entire country. Life ain't always easy. There's no way to guarantee that every child grows up in the best possible home.

macpatti

Like I said, since polygamy is even more hushed and taboo than gay couples raising children, I doubt there are as many studies out there -- or, if they exist, they may not be as representative as they could be of the community.

That's what I was initially asking. I wanted to know if there were any decent impact studies.

I find studies interesting, but I know plenty of kids from all types of families -- some had one parent, some had two, some had gay parents, and just having a mom and dad who love each other and were married forever doesn't ensure that kid is going to grow up and be a happy, well rounded adult. It doesn't matter who is in your house (abusers not included, obviously); what I believe truly influences children's development is the mental and emotional health and wellbeing of the parent(s) and how that is translated into their parenting practices.

I find studies interesting, too. Of course, you're going to have the exceptions and individual cases. But, if there are more than 1 million homes raising children by homosexual parents, you'd think we'd have better impact studies than 78 families (as in the first article). I just wish we could do a much larger study.

Take a look at today's helicopter parents... [disclaimer: not always, but for the sake of the example] you have traditional families (mom and dad, they love each other and love their kid to a fault) yet you have kids with no concept of how to function in the world once they are adults. NPR did a series on helicopter parents and there are parents attending job interviews with their adult children, calling their college professors to argue about their children's grades, and calling HR departments to negotiate benefits for their adult children. These parents would probably tell you they love each other, and love their children more than anything... but just loving each other and loving their kids is not necessarily enough. It's the parenting practices that really shape the children into adults, whether it's one parent, two parents, gay parents, or six parents.

Agreed. But shouldn't we be able to find the better of all scenarios if there is one? Or should we just say, "They all can suck, so everyone should just do their own thing"? I don't know the answer or pretend to.

macpatti

We can't start pulling kids out of every home we see as not perfect.

Agreed.

Example: I don't think you'd find a single study that says it's beneficial for children to be raised in homes below the poverty level. That's pretty much universally a negative thing, or at the very least not a positive. Do we start pulling kids out of homes earning less than x? Should only the financially well off, as determined by the state, have the option of starting a family? Of course not.

No, we don't pull them out. We offer the families financial assitance.

Children are raised in less than ideal homes on a daily basis throughout the entire country. Life ain't always easy. There's no way to guarantee that every child grows up in the best possible home.

Again, I agree. I would just rather keep trying than just give up, though. How? I have no idea. I just hate the idea of "live and let live because life ain't always easy".

spartangirl79

Like I said, since polygamy is even more hushed and taboo than gay couples raising children, I doubt there are as many studies out there -- or, if they exist, they may not be as representative as they could be of the community.

That's what I was initially asking. I wanted to know if there were any decent impact studies.

I find studies interesting, but I know plenty of kids from all types of families -- some had one parent, some had two, some had gay parents, and just having a mom and dad who love each other and were married forever doesn't ensure that kid is going to grow up and be a happy, well rounded adult. It doesn't matter who is in your house (abusers not included, obviously); what I believe truly influences children's development is the mental and emotional health and wellbeing of the parent(s) and how that is translated into their parenting practices.

I find studies interesting, too. Of course, you're going to have the exceptions and individual cases. But, if there are more than 1 million homes raising children by homosexual parents, you'd think we'd have better impact studies than 78 families (as in the first article). I just wish we could do a much larger study.

Take a look at today's helicopter parents... [disclaimer: not always, but for the sake of the example] you have traditional families (mom and dad, they love each other and love their kid to a fault) yet you have kids with no concept of how to function in the world once they are adults. NPR did a series on helicopter parents and there are parents attending job interviews with their adult children, calling their college professors to argue about their children's grades, and calling HR departments to negotiate benefits for their adult children. These parents would probably tell you they love each other, and love their children more than anything... but just loving each other and loving their kids is not necessarily enough. It's the parenting practices that really shape the children into adults, whether it's one parent, two parents, gay parents, or six parents.

Agreed. But shouldn't we be able to find the better of all scenarios if there is one? Or should we just say, "They all can suck, so everyone should just do their own thing"? I don't know the answer or pretend to.

We shouldn't just ignore those who need help, but once we find the "better of all scenarios," what do we do? Do we make all the other scenarios illegal?

I would just think that with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, any argument that a two-parent traditional household is the best way to raise children has gone right out the window. Should people sign a contract that says they will not divorce before procreating?

I don't believe that the presence of one or two humans in a household, and the gender of thoes humans, determines a child's future success and/or failure, or future happiness. It's much more than that, but it's so much easier for society to point a finger and say "it's THOSE people that are runining the children! Stop them!"

What we REALLY should do is provide more education for any potential parents and really teach them how to be parents, even go so far as to provide classes for them before they have babies, to help them decide whether they really want to be parents in the first place. Who is in the house becomes inconsequential (again, not including abusers) when you get to the real root of the problems children have, and grow up with.

future_runner

...do we want submissive doormat women? do we want girls raised in this thinking they should be a doormat? boys raised to think their king of the castle?

Sorry, but I think we already teach those very ideas with many TV shows, movies, books, and music.

You said it beautifully! We also raise to believe its not ok to express emotions which leads to a whole mess of other issues once they get into adult relationships (I know, not for everyone, but it's an applicable generalization)

madamepsychosis

I've starting feeling like, as long as people are happy and aren't causing harm to others, let them live their damn lives. Regardless if they're gay, polygamists, Mormons, whatever. People should be allowed to be happy - no one should infringe on that (as long as there's no harm being caused.)

This. It's not for me, but what other people do is none of my business!

spartangirl79

We can't start pulling kids out of every home we see as not perfect.

Agreed.

Example: I don't think you'd find a single study that says it's beneficial for children to be raised in homes below the poverty level. That's pretty much universally a negative thing, or at the very least not a positive. Do we start pulling kids out of homes earning less than x? Should only the financially well off, as determined by the state, have the option of starting a family? Of course not.

No, we don't pull them out. We offer the families financial assitance.

I grew up on welfare. Financial assistance doesn't fix ANYTHING except to put (crappy) food on the table. It's usually the folks on long-term financial assistance that are mentally ill and untreated, or have other serious issues that just slip through the cracks. Until we start addressing the root of problems, these are just band-aids and kids are going to repeat the cycles of the problems that their parents had, whether they had one parent, two parents, or six parents.

_the_feniks_

Any man who would want more than one wife is certifiable ****ing insane.

SeasideOasis

-=Shrugs=- Not for me, personally. However, what other people are doing in their beds is REALLY up to them in my opinion.

macpatti

We shouldn't just ignore those who need help, but once we find the "better of all scenarios," what do we do?

Well, at one time, there were financial benefits/incentives given to what was thought to be the "better of all scenarios" at the time.

I would just think that with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, any argument that a two-parent traditional household is the best way to raise children has gone right out the window. Should people sign a contract that says they will not divorce before procreating?

I agree that the ideal has gone out the window! I'm certainly not saying people should never divorce.

What we REALLY should do is provide more education for any potential parents and really teach them how to be parents, even go so far as to provide classes for them before they have babies, to help them decide whether they really want to be parents in the first place. Who is in the house becomes inconsequential (again, not including abusers) when you get to the real root of the problems children have, and grow up with.

We'd need to include what we've found to be harmful to children in each type of home.

TheRoadDog

Just my luck that I would get 4 women to go along with this idea and then their TOM didn't synch up. Every week there would be one woman p*ssed off.

One out of four pissed at all times is better than four at once...

Not really. If they all synch up, that's the week I go for a ride on my motorcycle.

86_Ohms

That's X many in-laws to deal with...

And subsequently if their parents are divorced, that's 2x the holiday parties you have to drive/fly to attend. Ever see four-christmases with Vince Vaughn and Reese Witherspoon? You might have to deal with your wife's/husband's brother's/sister's 4 wives/husbands that also have 5 wives/husbands each.

Argh! Headache.

Just my luck that I would get 4 women to go along with this idea and then their TOM didn't synch up. Every week there would be one woman p*ssed off.

^^^ that too lol

spartangirl79

We shouldn't just ignore those who need help, but once we find the "better of all scenarios," what do we do?

Well, at one time, there were financial benefits/incentives given to what was thought to be the "better of all scenarios" at the time.

I would just think that with 50% of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce, any argument that a two-parent traditional household is the best way to raise children has gone right out the window. Should people sign a contract that says they will not divorce before procreating?

I agree that the ideal has gone out the window! I'm certainly not saying people should never divorce.

What we REALLY should do is provide more education for any potential parents and really teach them how to be parents, even go so far as to provide classes for them before they have babies, to help them decide whether they really want to be parents in the first place. Who is in the house becomes inconsequential (again, not including abusers) when you get to the real root of the problems children have, and grow up with.

We'd need to include what we've found to be harmful to children in each type of home.

I certainly don't want to be the one coming up with that list. What emotionally damages one child may roll right off the back of another. That's why such general incentives (tax incentives for marriage = protects children by keeping parents together) just won't work anymore, at least not the way they were originally intended.

I get tax benefits for being married and I'm not having kids... which is probably the best thing I could do for kids considering the state of the world today, ha ha.