Cussing at/to Children

kennethmgreen

it is verbal abuse, hands down. It fits the definition 110%.

You may have gotten your definition in math class.

ETA: I don't agree with you definition.

bearkisses

it is verbal abuse, hands down. It fits the definition 110%.

You may have gotten your definition in math class.

i see what you did there...but it is verbal abuse. Anyone that thinks otherwise knows absolutely nothing about what abuse looks like. Blinders on!

bulbadoof

I think putting the word off-limits is what sends them into that 'phase' every kid has when they first learn it, where they use it all the time just because it's a new word that they're not 'supposed' to be using. If I planned on having kids I would raise them not to give any words more power over others. I think taking away the severity of curse words would take away the desire to use them excessively.

kennethmgreen

it is verbal abuse, hands down. It fits the definition 110%.

You may have gotten your definition in math class.

i see what you did there...but it is verbal abuse. Anyone that thinks otherwise knows absolutely nothing about what abuse looks like. Blinders on!

Find me a definition of verbal abuse that says cussing must be part of the verbal abuse for it to be verbal abuse and I will eat my socks.

Blinders on, indeed.

kennethmgreen

He was a great teacher. That he cussed is secondary, right? Unless you are arguing him cussing keeps him from being a great eacher, you are stating the obvious.

Yes, in my mind, he was not a great teacher because he cussed so much. Teaching in the classroom is more than just the material being covered.

Whether I agree with cussing in the classroom or not, I don't think it defines teaching greatness. That is, I don't think it's important enough to make a great teacher not great.

I posit that the issues we, as parents, think cussing has on our children are directly proportional to how we feel about cussing ourselves.

What about the points I made regarding federal government guidelines for profanity and children? Surely this comes from some well respected study. No?

Honestly, I was ready to concede on this point until I starting poking around the Internet and discovered The Tubes didn't contain a lot of definitive info. I'd find articles claiming studies show profanity linked to violence, poor performance, etc. then would see it was published by the Moral Crusade or some such organization.

I'm not saying Psychology Today is the end-all reference, but I believe the statements that there is very little data to offer a conclusive answer either way.

So I'm going with my gut and saying that movie and TV ratings - at least with regard to language - have as much to do with the comfort level of the adults making those rules than anything else. (e.g. not about the kids)

I think we tend to want to "protect" kids from what we are uncomfortable with. It's only natural. It's instinctual, but not very scientific. And often not very reasonable.

wineplease

Do you know how hard it would be to constantly cuss at your kids?

Okay. I believe cussing at your children on a regular basis is a form of verbal abuse. This is not the same as cussing around your children. I'm talking about cussing at them. It's wrong and verbally abusive. IMO.

bearkisses

verbal abuse can be other things than swearing, but it does meet the criteria. And I am sourcing myself for 2 years in college studying social services, 4 years earning my BA and working on a thesis that involves abuse, 8 years experience working with marginalized persons who are prone to abuse due to ****ed up systemic issues, and many many courses on family psychology, child development, and sexual violence (and yes, that involves verbal profanities!). Want a citation? Go to google scholar or call an abused woman's shelter and they can explore issues with you and enlighten you!

wineplease

Whether I agree with cussing in the classroom or not, I don't think it defines teaching greatness. That is, I don't think it's important enough to make a great teacher not great.

That is just a matter of opinion. No teacher who cusses in the classroom is a great teacher, in my opinion. It lacks professionalism. It lacks class. It shows a lack of judgement. It shows a lack of self control. While you may be able to communicate the material, you are not great in my mind if you need to cuss or have the desire to cuss in front of your students.

csman49

F@ck yeah

wineplease

Find me a definition of verbal abuse that says cussing must be part of the verbal abuse for it to be verbal abuse and I will eat my socks.

Of course it's not going to say that cussing "must" be part of the verbal abuse. But, you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words.

bearkisses

Find me a definition of verbal abuse that says cussing must be part of the verbal abuse for it to be verbal abuse and I will eat my socks.

Of course it's not going to say that cussing "must" be part of the verbal abuse. But, you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words.

I like to call thinkers like him 'reductionists'.

Anyway, exploring what 'abuse' is, is really hard to quantify in terms of good scientific studies. But if this person wants good sources the best place to look would be at the agencies that work with both abusers/survivors. However, I have a feeling they won't deem that scientific enough.

dakitten2

I'm sitting here remembering the day that my daughter came home from school one day and said I hope I am never a ketchup. I was like huh? She said that in her class the teacher every day divided the class into ketchups and mustards. I said why? Well the mustards are the kids who did really well and mustered up but the ketchups were catch-ups who didn't do so good. And on top of that if you were a ketchup, you were placed in a 3 sided box so you could catch-up and 4th graders being typical 4th graders, teased the ketchups, etc.

I was appalled at this method of teaching. Feel free to guess what I did!

kennethmgreen

Find me a definition of verbal abuse that says cussing must be part of the verbal abuse for it to be verbal abuse and I will eat my socks.

Of course it's not going to say that cussing "must" be part of the verbal abuse. But, you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words.

I like to call thinkers like him 'reductionists'.

Anyway, exploring what 'abuse' is, is really hard to quantify in terms of good scientific studies. But if this person wants good sources the best place to look would be at the agencies that work with both abusers/survivors. However, I have a feeling they won't deem that scientific enough.

I like to call thinkers like you 'missingthepointists" or sometimes "pushingyourownagendaists"

This discussion was about cussing and whether it is abusive. Cussing in and of itself is not verbal abuse. Just like striking someone in and of itself is not physical abuse. Or sexual penetration in and of itself is not sexual abuse.

I don't deny that verbal abuse often contains cussing, that physical abuse often contains striking someone, or that sexual abuse often includes penetration. I'm simply saying that are not one and the same.

OF COURSE "you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words." I'm not denying that. I AM saying that cussing at someone does not equate verbal abuse.

I'm not splitting hairs. You are attaching hairs.

And in case it matters, I have experience working in an emergency shelter for abused and neglected kids, working with CPS and the court system, etc. So I do have some context around child abuse - both verbal and physical.

wineplease

I was appalled at this method of teaching. Feel free to guess what I did!

Cussed the teacher out? :laugh:

kennethmgreen

Whether I agree with cussing in the classroom or not, I don't think it defines teaching greatness. That is, I don't think it's important enough to make a great teacher not great.

That is just a matter of opinion. No teacher who cusses in the classroom is a great teacher, in my opinion. It lacks professionalism. It lacks class. It shows a lack of judgement. It shows a lack of self control. While you may be able to communicate the material, you are not great in my mind if you need to cuss or have the desire to cuss in front of your students.

We'll just have to disagree not to agree, then.

Measuring teacher greatness is almost exclusively opinion, because most metrics are actually measuring student performance. I work at an organization that studies this kind of stuff.

We're back to context and details. Using your words above, at what point does a teacher who you otherwise deem "great" suddenly become NOT great? If he hits his thumb with a hammer and exclaims "*kitten*!"? If he does that four times in a year? Which cuss words remove a teacher from greatness? And how many times would she have to say each word? Do some cuss words have more greatness-removing power than others?

wineplease

OF COURSE "you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words." I'm not denying that. I AM saying that cussing at someone does not equate verbal abuse.

Do you believe that parents cussing AT their children is verbal abuse?

wineplease

We'll just have to disagree not to agree, then.

Yup. We just have different opinions.

Measuring teacher greatness is almost exclusively opinion, because most metrics are actually measuring student performance. I work at an organization that studies this kind of stuff.

And I work at a place that measures great teachers differently. I get that.

We're back to context and details. Using your words above, at what point does a teacher who you otherwise deem "great" suddenly become NOT great? If he hits his thumb with a hammer and exclaims "*kitten*!"? If he does that four times in a year? Which cuss words remove a teacher from greatness? And how many times would she have to say each word? Do some cuss words have more greatness-removing power than others?

Slipping up and apologizing to your students is one thing. Cussing on any regular basis in the classroom is wrong, and that goes for @ss, *kitten*, and the F bomb.

kennethmgreen

OF COURSE "you can verbally abuse someone with cuss words." I'm not denying that. I AM saying that cussing at someone does not equate verbal abuse.

Do you believe that parents cussing AT their children is verbal abuse?

No. Not always.

That's a f&cking awesome book report! You are a godd@amn rock star! (maybe not great parenting, but not verbal abuse)
Godd*ammit! I'm really f&cking angry at you for crossing the street without looking! (not verbal abuse, but maybe borderline)
You are a f%cking loser who will never amount to anything! (verbal abuse - HOWEVER....)
You are a loser who will never amount to anything! (also verbal abuse)

The cussing does not make it abuse.

That's my whole point.

The cussing does not make it abuse. The abuse makes it abuse.

wineplease

That's a f&cking awesome book report! You are a godd@amn rock star! (maybe not great parenting, but not verbal abuse)

I guess the difference in my mind is that I don't consider this cussing AT your child as much as TO your child. To me, cussing AT your child is verbal abuse.

stonel94

Using curse words and cursing at children are 2 very different concepts. If the child is very young, as cursing towards them can really hurt them, but if they're in middle school, and you say something like "that was really F*cking stupid of you to do that" or something like that, I don't think that's abuse it might shock them into thinking more about what they did, it would have to be in a calm way like you know you're telling them to think about what they've done.
I think using curse words around children, but not to them, is really okay, like they're going to hear the words, and it's best to not make them these ways to rebel these things that are never to be said because then when they get upset even in public they might use them, if you teach them these are words people use when they are upset, and they're not good they can hurt people stuff like that, but don't like kick yourself over using one i think that's okay. Kids hear it now in music, on tv, from other kids, and from adults in passing, there's no way to keep them from hearing it. In my schools the teachers would use the lesser curse words like *kitten* and A$S in their you know describtions of things like this guy lived a **** life, or this guy was an a$s hole, stuff like that and it just made them more like real people, people you could be friends with, because there wasn't this wall of coloquialisms between us

kennethmgreen

Measuring teacher greatness is almost exclusively opinion, because most metrics are actually measuring student performance. I work at an organization that studies this kind of stuff.

And I work at a place that measures great teachers differently. I get that.

What methods does your place use to measure teacher greatness that is independent of student performance? Interviews? Rating system? Student surveys? Professional observation?

Of those systems, how many explicitly address the existence and/or frequency of cussing in the classroom?

We're back to context and details. Using your words above, at what point does a teacher who you otherwise deem "great" suddenly become NOT great? If he hits his thumb with a hammer and exclaims "*kitten*!"? If he does that four times in a year? Which cuss words remove a teacher from greatness? And how many times would she have to say each word? Do some cuss words have more greatness-removing power than others?

Slipping up and apologizing to your students is one thing. Cussing on any regular basis in the classroom is wrong, and that goes for @ss, *kitten*, and the F bomb.

You can see how your above statement is different than your previous statement (below) was, right?

No teacher who cusses in the classroom is a great teacher, in my opinion.

I won't deny your right to believe teachers shouldn't cuss in the classroom. I'm not exactly a proponent of it. I just think there are far more important metrics to evaluate a teacher's greatness on. And honestly, I suspect that any teacher who we both might deem "great" but who also regularly cusses in the classroom, is likely an outlier.

I'm stuck still talking about all this because I find it deeply fascinating. It's easy to dismiss the greater frequency of profanity, the relaxing of standards on TV and in movies, etc. as simply the "fall of man" or "decency crumbling." But I think it's much more complicated than that. And more dynamic. I think we are much less relaxed than we were 20 years ago. And a huge shift happened in the media with Janet Jackson's boob.

I am fascinated by the power that some words hold. Why does one four-letter word have more power that another four-letter word? Why does a particular string of sounds coming from my mouth carry more weight and offending power than another particular string of sounds? All that "power" isn't real. At least it's not measurable. It's all derived from our own attachment to the words. Not the words themselves. And yes, I believe the same with racial slurs and other trigger words, though that's a different (and far more delicate) discussion.

Thanks for the patience to continue the discussion.

wineplease

What methods does your place use to measure teacher greatness that is independent of student performance? Interviews? Rating system? Student surveys? Professional observation?

A combination of all of those, but we also have a morals and values component. Our faculty is responsible for the formation of the students.

Of those systems, how many explicitly address the existence and/or frequency of cussing in the classroom?

Faculty handbook and annual reviews and ongoing faith formation of faculty.

You can see how your above statement is different than your previous statement (below) was, right?

Yes, that's why I clarified it when you asked.

Iwon't deny your right to believe teachers shouldn't cuss in the classroom. I'm not exactly a proponent of it. I just think there are far more important metrics to evaluate a teacher's greatness on. And honestly, I suspect that any teacher who we both might deem "great" but who also regularly cusses in the classroom, is likely an outlier.

I'm stuck still talking about all this because I find it deeply fascinating. It's easy to dismiss the greater frequency of profanity, the relaxing of standards on TV and in movies, etc. as simply the "fall of man" or "decency crumbling." But I think it's much more complicated than that. And more dynamic. I think we are much less relaxed than we were 20 years ago. And a huge shift happened in the media with Janet Jackson's boob.

I am fascinated by the power that some words hold. Why does one four-letter word have more power that another four-letter word? Why does a particular string of sounds coming from my mouth carry more weight and offending power than another particular string of sounds? All that "power" isn't real. At least it's not measurable. It's all derived from our own attachment to the words. Not the words themselves. And yes, I believe the same with racial slurs and other trigger words, though that's a different (and far more delicate) discussion
Thanks for the patience to continue the discussion.

Words do have power.

kimosabe1

my mom was always a *****.......

lostdogg

I think the biggest thing is the difference between cursing at the and cursing in front of them. Although I keep my sweating to a minimum in front of my kids I have done so. Swore at my children, no I wont do it.

Do I think it's abusive to swear in front of them, no. Look at the definition of abuse.

Do I think it's abusive to swear at them, that depends moreso on the tone and what's being said.

You can abuse someone verbally without cussing and you can cuss with abusing.

LouAnn71464

I really don't think cussing is verbal abuse unless it is used to hurt a child's feelings. I don't think it is appropriate language to use in childcare or is the school system.

stumblinthrulife

I think it's fantastic that we live in a country where actual abuse of children is at such low levels that we can now concern ourselves with the things we say to them.

I'm guessing plenty of kids across the world would switch places in a heart beat with an American kid whose parents cuss them out.

Not that I'm defending the practice - it's uncouth and unnecessary. But in the full spectrum of child abuse, cussing barely registers.

emaren

As the son of a RAF Squadron Leader (retired), swearing, cussing, whatever you wish to call it, was just a part of the language that I heard every single day.

I learned the difference between the Hammer, the Effing Hammer and the Effing Stupid hammer.

That is not abuse.

That is simply emphasis.

If I did something wrong I was admonished. If I did something stupid, I was told that what I had done was stupid, if what I did was really effing stupid, well, I was told that this was really effing stupid.

Again, this is not abuse, this is emphasis.

Using cusswords / swearing is not abuse, it is plain and simple emphasis.

ValerieMartini2Olives

The people that live across the street... her kids were playing outside and they got in her van. She comes out and I hear her yell "Get out of the f'in van! What the f is wrong with you? F this! F-that!" She had to have dropped the f bomb about 9 times in 20 seconds. It was disgusting and vulgar. No wonder her kids don't respect her.

karl39x

Verbal abuse? Is this a woman thing.

Contrarian

I agree with everything eyelikepie said. As a child, I encountered both verbal abuse without profanity, and kind, loving adults who used some colourful language.

Verbal abuse is rage and vitriol. Swearing is inconsequential.