why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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GoPerfectHealth wrote: »I can't speak to any other person's experience, and I do not eat low-carb myself. But I do wonder if people do respond differently to macronutrients. I can recall a genetic test by Inherent Health that I was going to take some years ago that would provide more information on how my genes impacted my response to diet and exercise.
Inherent Health claims that specific genes are associated with weight loss. If you take their test they will provide you with a report that tells you whether you have genes that indicate a sensitivity to dietary fat, carbs, and exercise. I have not analyzed their research, but I do find it thought-provoking.
http://www.inherenthealth.com/media/4759/wm_scientific summary.pdf
Sounds like mostly baloney/taking a small detail and making it out to be all that matters.0 -
WTF is CICO0
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Speaking for myself, I absolutely believe in CICO. It is Keto, however, that allows me to remain at a deficit easily.
That being said, I do believe I was suffering from some kind of insulin resistance prior. I once read an analogy that said trying to lose weight with IR is like putting the gas pedal down while a cinder block sits on the brake -- I've definitely felt like I was spinning my tires before.
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Alatariel75 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I love carbs. But when I was younger and more willing to spend stupid amounts of money on unneccesary weight loss things, I signed up to a place called 'Healthy Inspirations', basically a Curves type gym that also gave you a Weight Watchers type meal plan. Their week one was a "healthy kickstart" where for 7 days straight where you can eat unlimited amounts of:
Meat - any type including bacon, seafood, eggs etc.
Veges - anything but the starchy ones
Dairy - Cheese, cream, butter but not milk
Nuts and olives
Knowing nothing of calories, I was easily packing away a couple hundred grams of cheese and the same in nuts a day for 7 days along with a crapload of bacon, steak, eggs etc all cooked in butter, and lost 5kg.
I know nothing of the science, and I wasn't tracking any calories but I've often thought about that, since I know so much more now and wonder how the hell I didn't GAIN 5kg that week.
Virtually no carbs so losing water weight, plus fat and protein tend to be filling so you easily could have eaten fewer calories that you'd think would be in what you ate. Let's say 4-5 servings of 30g slices of cheese (were you really eating that much cheese every day?) for ~600 calories, let's say another 600 calories in nuts, then maybe 600 in dairy, veggies ,and meat together. That's only 1800 calories, which would allow plenty of people to lose weight. I'm in the 150s now and I can lose on 1800 calories despite only working out ~4, max 5hrs a week (mostly weight lifting).
yeah. Yeah, I was haahaa. I pretty much used it as an excuse to go buy 3-4 different types and just devour them. King Island smoked cheddar, feta, brie... I put it in my eggs for breakfast, added swathes to my salads for lunch, and melted it over my meat for dinner. It was disgusting. So gorgeously disgusting...
Well I used to shred probably upwards of 100g of cheese, melt it in a bowl.... and just eat melted cheese LOL.
But I also way over-ate on calorie-dense food and still ate plenty of carbs, so I know why I gained
I gained because I would house down two Philly cheesesteaks and an order of mozzarella sticks in one sitting…and that was just dinner….0 -
So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.0 -
nicsflyingcircus wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
at 70 calories an egg that would be 840 calories for 12 eggs …so if you just 12 eggs and some fats not sure you would hit 1500 ????
we must be doing our sums differently.
12 eggs= 840 calories
20g butter ×12= 1728 calories
Total== 2568 calories
And the fat could be either butter, coconut oil or mayonnaise
American tbsp is 15ml or 14grams.
Ahh ok . I must check exactly what they use here in Aus. Some say 15g equals a Tbs, others say 20g. I might just stick to 15g
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I love carbs. But when I was younger and more willing to spend stupid amounts of money on unneccesary weight loss things, I signed up to a place called 'Healthy Inspirations', basically a Curves type gym that also gave you a Weight Watchers type meal plan. Their week one was a "healthy kickstart" where for 7 days straight where you can eat unlimited amounts of:
Meat - any type including bacon, seafood, eggs etc.
Veges - anything but the starchy ones
Dairy - Cheese, cream, butter but not milk
Nuts and olives
Knowing nothing of calories, I was easily packing away a couple hundred grams of cheese and the same in nuts a day for 7 days along with a crapload of bacon, steak, eggs etc all cooked in butter, and lost 5kg.
I know nothing of the science, and I wasn't tracking any calories but I've often thought about that, since I know so much more now and wonder how the hell I didn't GAIN 5kg that week.
I think things like this are water weight more than fat loss.
I'm interested in this topic, too.
What you said reminded me. I remember that if I fudged with any carb over the recommended amount, I swelled up bad.
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Well I used to shred probably upwards of 100g of cheese, melt it in a bowl.... and just eat melted cheese LOL.
But I also way over-ate on calorie-dense food and still ate plenty of carbs, so I know why I gained
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You guys are making me hungry again!0
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So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….0 -
stevencloser wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
So are you saying hormones can somehow significantly change one's calorie expenditure? Because that's kinda the only way this would make any sense.
yesstevencloser wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
So are you saying hormones can somehow significantly change one's calorie expenditure? Because that's kinda the only way this would make any sense.
I read it as the medical condition did….
and yes, the hormones, whether from something like pcos or from insulin and your metabolic syndrome or IR CAN, but doesnt always, change ones calorie expenditure.
I doubt, but i dont know for sure, that most who do LCHF dont do it because limiting cake, ice cream, etc is fun or that they love torturing themselves. Most have found that to be the one way they can lose any decent amount of weight after they have tried a SAD and it failed repeatedly.0 -
Haven't read all the comments. However, I am almost ALWAYS over on my carbs and sugars...whoops! I'd die if I went low-carb. I definitely am a CICO person and I don't restrict myself too much. My body can't handle the same amounts of food that I used to eat and my body physically rejects certain foods. But I'm not unrealistic about my food.0
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Alatariel75 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I love carbs. But when I was younger and more willing to spend stupid amounts of money on unneccesary weight loss things, I signed up to a place called 'Healthy Inspirations', basically a Curves type gym that also gave you a Weight Watchers type meal plan. Their week one was a "healthy kickstart" where for 7 days straight where you can eat unlimited amounts of:
Meat - any type including bacon, seafood, eggs etc.
Veges - anything but the starchy ones
Dairy - Cheese, cream, butter but not milk
Nuts and olives
Knowing nothing of calories, I was easily packing away a couple hundred grams of cheese and the same in nuts a day for 7 days along with a crapload of bacon, steak, eggs etc all cooked in butter, and lost 5kg.
I know nothing of the science, and I wasn't tracking any calories but I've often thought about that, since I know so much more now and wonder how the hell I didn't GAIN 5kg that week.
Virtually no carbs so losing water weight, plus fat and protein tend to be filling so you easily could have eaten fewer calories that you'd think would be in what you ate. Let's say 4-5 servings of 30g slices of cheese (were you really eating that much cheese every day?) for ~600 calories, let's say another 600 calories in nuts, then maybe 600 in dairy, veggies ,and meat together. That's only 1800 calories, which would allow plenty of people to lose weight. I'm in the 150s now and I can lose on 1800 calories despite only working out ~4, max 5hrs a week (mostly weight lifting). yeah. Yeah, I was haahaa. I pretty much used it as an excuse to go buy 3-4 different types and just devour them. King Island smoked cheddar, feta, brie... I put it in my eggs for breakfast, added swathes to my salads for lunch, and melted it over my meat for dinner. It was disgusting. So gorgeously disgusting...
Well I used to shred probably upwards of 100g of cheese, melt it in a bowl.... and just eat melted cheese LOL.
But I also way over-ate on calorie-dense food and still ate plenty of carbs, so I know why I gained
omg I can't keep up with this thread!! Everytime I reply to something, 20 odd posts are typed at the same time!
As for the melted cheese thing, yum!! I melt cheese in the fry pan, add a bit of soya sauce and then dunk rye bread in to scoop out the cheese. No bowl required, eat straight out the pan
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Alliwan wrote:I doubt, but i dont know for sure, that most who do LCHF dont do it because limiting cake, ice cream, etc is fun or that they love torturing themselves. Most have found that to be the one way they can lose any decent amount of weight after they have tried a SAD and it failed repeatedly.
Yes, exactly. I absolutely think moderation is the best approach...if it works. For me, it does not.
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So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
Most likely because they were not logging or simply not logging accurately.
Also have someone on my friends list with PCOS and her carbs are often pretty high... she's lost 30lbs iirc.0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »You guys are making me hungry again!
don't blame your uncontrollable hunger on my thread!!!!!!
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So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.0 -
So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
Most likely because they were not logging or simply not logging accurately.
Also have someone on my friends list with PCOS and her carbs are often pretty high... she's lost 30lbs iirc.
Not always. I measured, digitally weighed, and logged everything for three months with little loss (with a properly calculated deficit, yes).
I've also had two kinds of weight loss surgery without much success.
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