why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I love carbs. But when I was younger and more willing to spend stupid amounts of money on unneccesary weight loss things, I signed up to a place called 'Healthy Inspirations', basically a Curves type gym that also gave you a Weight Watchers type meal plan. Their week one was a "healthy kickstart" where for 7 days straight where you can eat unlimited amounts of:
Meat - any type including bacon, seafood, eggs etc.
Veges - anything but the starchy ones
Dairy - Cheese, cream, butter but not milk
Nuts and olives
Knowing nothing of calories, I was easily packing away a couple hundred grams of cheese and the same in nuts a day for 7 days along with a crapload of bacon, steak, eggs etc all cooked in butter, and lost 5kg.
I know nothing of the science, and I wasn't tracking any calories but I've often thought about that, since I know so much more now and wonder how the hell I didn't GAIN 5kg that week.
I think things like this are water weight more than fat loss.
I'm interested in this topic, too.
This. A week of low carb is mostly water weight. I lost 7lbs my first week. Water.0 -
callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »
do you mean like just butter .. or butter melted into hot toast .. because I know which one I could cope with
yes, there are people who EAT BUTTER.
i love me some butter, but please put it on or in something LOLOL
I think for MOST people (barring diabetes or other health concern) a normal diet, with the normal rec. amount of carbs is fine. of course CICO matters, some people (not all just some) are just... in denial? or maybe they are (coincidentally) eating at their number without meaning to.
cant be concerned too much about what other people are doing, i have my own fat to worry about LOLOLOL
man i love butter but I have to put it on something = waffles, bagels, toast…
thinking about use cutting a piece of butter off and eating it makes me shiver….*bla*0 -
This is way more PG than I expected.0
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »billieljaime wrote: »so when I did low carb Atkins was all the rage and there were guidlines it did not mean i could eat a tub of lard because there was no lard....
seriously would you drink five liters of diet coke because there are no calories or six pots of coffee because there are no calories?
The simple answer is no because you would feel like crap and not meet your health goals
didn't some people take atkins to the extreme and start eating steak and bacon all day????
Years ago, probably 15 or so, I had to run to the store to pick up heavy cream because I was making shrimp Alfredo pasta for my mom visiting from out of town (her favorite meal). Standing in line at the checkout, I heard a guy behind me saying, "hey. Are you on Atkins? Hey... You on Atkins?" I didn't think he was talking to me but then he tapped me on the shoulder and asked again. "Are you on Atkins? It's awesome. I'm on it and I drink that stuff all the time and you can eat pork rinds and I've lost 25 lbs!" I said, "you eat pork rinds and drink heavy cream and you are bragging about that to strangers in public?" I wasn't even trying to be snarky. I was seriously dumbfounded.
In full disclosure it was at Walmart....
Whu, it's like cereal.
I just threw up in my mouth.
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You know where I saw the butter eating talk first? Not from low carbers, but from clean eaters. It was "because pastured butter". This was before bulletproof coffee became a thing.
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Alatariel75 wrote: »Wiseandcurious wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
at 70 calories an egg that would be 840 calories for 12 eggs …so if you just 12 eggs and some fats not sure you would hit 1500 ????
But 12 TBS of fat would be at least another 1200 cal or more, if we go by that story. Personally I think people were probably skipping fats however.
12 tbs of fat a day is insane!!! If I have a 2 tbs of olive oil a day that is ALOT for me...
How would you even do that unless you were having it in shots? I love eggs but the thought of them swimming in all that oil... gag.
I do shots of hemp oil occasionally to get my fat macros up.
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blktngldhrt wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Wiseandcurious wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
at 70 calories an egg that would be 840 calories for 12 eggs …so if you just 12 eggs and some fats not sure you would hit 1500 ????
But 12 TBS of fat would be at least another 1200 cal or more, if we go by that story. Personally I think people were probably skipping fats however.
12 tbs of fat a day is insane!!! If I have a 2 tbs of olive oil a day that is ALOT for me...
How would you even do that unless you were having it in shots? I love eggs but the thought of them swimming in all that oil... gag.
I do shots of hemp oil occasionally to get my fat macros up.
for real?????0 -
if any of the low carbers are curious, this is the thread that spawned this thread
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31656383#Comment_316563830 -
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mmmm breakfast. Lots of protein.
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MrCoolGrim wrote: »
mmmm breakfast. Lots of protein.
I would try it...and if seasoned properly probably eat the whole bowl
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MrCoolGrim wrote: »
mmmm breakfast. Lots of protein.
they kinda look like craw fish ...0 -
MrCoolGrim wrote: »
mmmm breakfast. Lots of protein.
I would try it...and if seasoned properly probably eat the whole bowl
I would think with a bottle of Bourdeaux0 -
Well, I have to say this thread is a refreshing surprise. I'm enjoying it. I've posted a lot on other low carb threads, but I'll just throw in my own experience. I've low carbed and it didn't work for me because eating until I was full didn't work for an emotional eater.
Having dealt with the emotional issues I had and moved on from low carbing, I became what I recently came to call myself--a selective carber. I moderate my carbs and only eat the ones I really enjoy like oatmeal and potatoes. I have a couple of medical conditions (fibromyalgia/CFS, psoriatic arthritis, and chronic migraines) that either include fatigue as a symptom or include fatigue-inducing medications.
I've found over time that my macro balance affects my energy levels. My body likes a lot of protein. It likes some carbs, but not too many.
I net around 100-120 carbs a day and am a vegetarian now. I've also lost more weight counting calories now than I did low-carbing 20 years ago. If I had known to watch my calories then, it would have worked, I'm sure. I just ate too much.0 -
MrCoolGrim wrote: »MrCoolGrim wrote: »
mmmm breakfast. Lots of protein.
I would try it...and if seasoned properly probably eat the whole bowl
I would think with a bottle of Bourdeaux
Would prefer an Imperial Stout0 -
I take it back. i think a couple pints of brew so i can swoosh and gargle down all the legs that get stuck between my teeth
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billieljaime wrote: »Wiseandcurious wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
at 70 calories an egg that would be 840 calories for 12 eggs …so if you just 12 eggs and some fats not sure you would hit 1500 ????
But 12 TBS of fat would be at least another 1200 cal or more, if we go by that story. Personally I think people were probably skipping fats however.
12 tbs of fat a day is insane!!! If I have a 2 tbs of olive oil a day that is ALOT for me...
because it doesnt work that way
people who do a low carb diet have a specific limitation just like CICO have a calorie limitation
low carbers have a daily fat and carb limitation
Protein is limited as well..
My limitation is calculated by how many calories I choose to eat. I strive for 5% carb 23% protein and 72% fat.0 -
So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
Most likely because they were not logging or simply not logging accurately.
Also have someone on my friends list with PCOS and her carbs are often pretty high... she's lost 30lbs iirc.
Just because you have a friend with pcos who eats high carb and still loses does not mean that everyone is the same. It's not a one size fits all thing where medical conditions are concerned.0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
I was diagnosed hypoglycemic by my pcp and not referred to an endocrinologist or a dietician. I actually wasn't given a referral to my endo until eleven years after my diagnosis. I was just told to control it with a low glycemic diet and to eat sugar when i was low. It wasn't until I got older and was able to do my own research that I figured out my pcp sucked. I guess hypoglycemia information has come a long way since I started having problems with it.0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Wiseandcurious wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
at 70 calories an egg that would be 840 calories for 12 eggs …so if you just 12 eggs and some fats not sure you would hit 1500 ????
But 12 TBS of fat would be at least another 1200 cal or more, if we go by that story. Personally I think people were probably skipping fats however.
12 tbs of fat a day is insane!!! If I have a 2 tbs of olive oil a day that is ALOT for me...
How would you even do that unless you were having it in shots? I love eggs but the thought of them swimming in all that oil... gag.
I do shots of hemp oil occasionally to get my fat macros up.
for real?????
Yes. If it's late and I don't feel like actually making something..i take a shot.0 -
http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
There you go OP. You could learn a lot from some of these studies.
There is a study (which atm I am unable to find), that had subjects lie in bed for 6 weeks (I think 6 weeks) eating their BMR calories, in high protein vs high carb, the high protein people lost less muscle and gained less fat.
Think about it like this, CICO is the gold standard, but what the calories come from still matters. Dieting and working out while eating 2000 cal of Twinkies vs 2000 cal of steak is going to have a significant impact in body composition which has a cumulative effect in continuing weight loss0 -
http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
There you go OP. You could learn a lot from some of these studies.
There is a study (which atm I am unable to find), that had subjects lie in bed for 6 weeks (I think 6 weeks) eating their BMR calories, in high protein vs high carb, the high protein people lost less muscle and gained less fat.
Think about it like this, CICO is the gold standard, but what the calories come from still matters. Dieting and working out while eating 2000 cal of Twinkies vs 2000 cal of steak is going to have a significant impact in body composition which has a cumulative effect in continuing weight loss
Who has ever recommended eating this way?
No one would ever do this. It's ridiculous.
And neither of which would be a healthy diet.
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if any of the low carbers are curious, this is the thread that spawned this thread
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31656383#Comment_31656383
I think it was stated a few pages ago in this thread, but newbies who come to mfp dont always understand CICO and jump on the low carb bandwagon because of all the hype about it recently. They dont research it, like other diet choices (vegan, vegetarian, meatatarian, etc) and just figure oh, low carb means high protein and so and so told me I didnt have to count calories. They have to be taught, just like anyone else, what macros are and how to tweak them and that they need to find their own weight loss calorie number.
So dont judge all low carbers by the vocal but uninformed new ones. They will learn and maybe many of them will fall into the category of being able to eat to full and not have to count calories on a LCHF.0 -
What are you responding to? My oversimplification of CICO? No one ever said eat twinkies or steak. Just that body comp is affected by types of food, which in turn manipulates BMR, which can HELP create or slow weight/body fat losshttp://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
There you go OP. You could learn a lot from some of these studies.
There is a study (which atm I am unable to find), that had subjects lie in bed for 6 weeks (I think 6 weeks) eating their BMR calories, in high protein vs high carb, the high protein people lost less muscle and gained less fat.
Think about it like this, CICO is the gold standard, but what the calories come from still matters. Dieting and working out while eating 2000 cal of Twinkies vs 2000 cal of steak is going to have a significant impact in body composition which has a cumulative effect in continuing weight loss
Who has ever recommended eating this way?
No one would ever do this. It's ridiculous.
And neither of which would be a healthy diet.0 -
I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
I am doing LC because I have noticed that when I eat too much carbs it make me feel psychically sick. I started MFP weighting all my food, calorie counting, eating 1200 and lost weight. Then I read up on BMR/TDEE and changed my micros to refect that along with a low carb % just to feel better psychically. I continue to weight, count and log. I need to know that I am not over my daily calories allowed because I believe that's how I will keep losing. I have done a lot of reading up on the CiCo and it does makes sense TO ME. So I personally dont discount CiCo. I believe I need a caloric deficit in order to lose weight and if eating LC helps me attain that deficit then awesome. I cannot eat and eat and eat over my TDEE and just expect to lose weight. The only way I have had optimum results losing weight effectively, this time around, has been eating with a deficit and LC but if I feel like I want to eat rice or a cookie or some whole wheat bread then I just fit them in my micros and keep it moving. I am still learning and would like to make this a way of life that is attainable for me and I dont think I could do that if I could NEVER have a piece of chocolate, bread, or pasta in my life.0 -
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herrspoons wrote: »http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
There you go OP. You could learn a lot from some of these studies.
There is a study (which atm I am unable to find), that had subjects lie in bed for 6 weeks (I think 6 weeks) eating their BMR calories, in high protein vs high carb, the high protein people lost less muscle and gained less fat.
Think about it like this, CICO is the gold standard, but what the calories come from still matters. Dieting and working out while eating 2000 cal of Twinkies vs 2000 cal of steak is going to have a significant impact in body composition which has a cumulative effect in continuing weight loss
Every time someone posts a link to authoritynutrition (LOL) a kitten dies.
A kitten also dies every time someone makes a ludicrous argument using extremes as general indicators.
Think of the kittens.
The links to the published articles just happened to be on that site. So you can't refute peer reviewed studies, so you ATTEMPt to be funny. Good one bro
like I said before CICO is the gold standard for weight loss, but what the calories come from matters too0
This discussion has been closed.
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