why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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christinev297 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »I love carbs. But when I was younger and more willing to spend stupid amounts of money on unneccesary weight loss things, I signed up to a place called 'Healthy Inspirations', basically a Curves type gym that also gave you a Weight Watchers type meal plan. Their week one was a "healthy kickstart" where for 7 days straight where you can eat unlimited amounts of:
Meat - any type including bacon, seafood, eggs etc.
Veges - anything but the starchy ones
Dairy - Cheese, cream, butter but not milk
Nuts and olives
Knowing nothing of calories, I was easily packing away a couple hundred grams of cheese and the same in nuts a day for 7 days along with a crapload of bacon, steak, eggs etc all cooked in butter, and lost 5kg.
I know nothing of the science, and I wasn't tracking any calories but I've often thought about that, since I know so much more now and wonder how the hell I didn't GAIN 5kg that week.
Virtually no carbs so losing water weight, plus fat and protein tend to be filling so you easily could have eaten fewer calories that you'd think would be in what you ate. Let's say 4-5 servings of 30g slices of cheese (were you really eating that much cheese every day?) for ~600 calories, let's say another 600 calories in nuts, then maybe 600 in dairy, veggies ,and meat together. That's only 1800 calories, which would allow plenty of people to lose weight. I'm in the 150s now and I can lose on 1800 calories despite only working out ~4, max 5hrs a week (mostly weight lifting).
yeah. Yeah, I was haahaa. I pretty much used it as an excuse to go buy 3-4 different types and just devour them. King Island smoked cheddar, feta, brie... I put it in my eggs for breakfast, added swathes to my salads for lunch, and melted it over my meat for dinner. It was disgusting. So gorgeously disgusting...
Well I used to shred probably upwards of 100g of cheese, melt it in a bowl.... and just eat melted cheese LOL.
But I also way over-ate on calorie-dense food and still ate plenty of carbs, so I know why I gained
omg I can't keep up with this thread!! Everytime I reply to something, 20 odd posts are typed at the same time!
As for the melted cheese thing, yum!! I melt cheese in the fry pan, add a bit of soya sauce and then dunk rye bread in to scoop out the cheese. No bowl required, eat straight out the pan
Oh cheese heavenly cheese. I was going to have a treat day on March 4, but i had one too early and it lasted 3 days, double oops, cuz i was going to make a cheesy homemade pizza. That will come next time when I have stayed on track for a good amount of time!
i made chicken, feta, pineapple pizza on sunday ..it was AWESOME0 -
I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
I agree, but knowing something is wrong and getting a doctor to acknowledge that is often two different times. Some women on my friends list have had it take over 10 months before the PCP finally understood she wasnt lying about her CI or CO and send her a referral to an endocrinologist who specialized in her problem.
It took me 2 years to get a referral to an endocrinologist. That was after gaining over 100 lbs in less than 3 years.
That would be a perfect example. I dont know if you were on MFP during that 3 year period but many here were. They were logging, then came here to ask why it wasnt working, got some good advice so they lowered their calories, weighed in grams, didnt lick spoons, fed their family over salted food cause they refused to taste it before serving because they ditn know how to log a lick, exercised more, etc (all weird but true examples that I've heard/read from those who suffer from medical issues). Then they came back here and said no still not working and basically got told they were still eating too much or not moving enough, so they went and changed that. A few ended up eating under the 1200 threshold and were exercising and not counting those calories and still werent losing or were losing so very slowly it wasnt worth the hangry, hair loss, etc that came with it.
Unfortunately it takes time to get answers from either your diet or your doctor, sometimes, like for you, it takes years and in that time you want to give up, cry, throw thing, all of the above because you KNOW you are logging every single thing you eat as accurately as humanly possible and if it works for everyone else, why isnt it working for you? You arent a special snowflake, so why cant you lose weight like everyone else?0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
Unless they've never known what it's like not to feel the way they do. They might well take it for granted that that's their normal. Or sure, they may wonder, "why do I feel so bad", but find themselves told "hey, you're good, see look at these numbers [perhaps not the relevant ones], it's all in your head".
That's very true but most people develop metabolic syndrome and/or insulin resistance over time… They usually aren't born with it. So chances are they felt a certain way BEFORE beginning to develop metabolic syndrome. Then came the dizziness, extreme hunger, shakiness, abdominal weight gain, vision problems, etc.
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
Unless they've never known what it's like not to feel the way they do. They might well take it for granted that that's their normal. Or sure, they may wonder, "why do I feel so bad", but find themselves told "hey, you're good, see look at these numbers [perhaps not the relevant ones], it's all in your head".
This a VERY good point! This is often the case with those who find they can 'only lose weight on LCHF' and get chastised for it.0 -
I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
you messing with me??? LOL0 -
I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
I know right! He is usually so unopinionated and undecisive about his beliefs. Letting all these low-carbers walk all over him and use him like some sort of rag doll!
I'm shocked.
:laugh:0 -
I'm not a Low carber, but right now while in deficit I certainly have some days that are pretty low carb to make goals if I have a particularly fatty meat that throws fats way over to hit a protein goal. I know an uncharacteristically high or low day in Carbs or salt affects my weight... but it's just signal noise. It's water weight not fat. But I think people occasionally see the sudden jump when low carbing and think it's magic.0
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
I know right! He is usually so unopinionated and undecisive about his beliefs. Letting all these low-carbers walk all over him and use him like some sort of rag doll!
I'm shocked.
:laugh:
bahahahaha ..you guys are funny …
yes, I am unopinionated and indecisive ….*slinks off to corner to sulk*0 -
I'm CICO at it's most basic level. Basically if it can fit into my calories and I want it then I'm going to eat it (I do pay some attention to macros but calories are my main concern). I am not low carb but I basically went low carb for awhile a few weeks ago without actually trying, I was just eating a lot of low carb foods - for me personally that did not work out. I need carbs in my life.
I'm willing to bet that most low carb people are restricting their calories, even if they're not counting and they just like to think that they are not.0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
Unless they've never known what it's like not to feel the way they do. They might well take it for granted that that's their normal. Or sure, they may wonder, "why do I feel so bad", but find themselves told "hey, you're good, see look at these numbers [perhaps not the relevant ones], it's all in your head".
That's very true but most people develop metabolic syndrome and/or insulin resistance over time… They usually aren't born with it. So chances are they felt a certain way BEFORE beginning to develop metabolic syndrome. Then came the dizziness, extreme hunger, shakiness, abdominal weight gain, vision problems, etc.
Sure, I was told I was hypoglycemic even tho I never had a test showing I had low blood sugar and that's why i was dizzy or hungry, etc. Some were told just to eat less and the hunger would stop, or not to stand up so fast and the dizziness would go away, or the weight gain was because they were eating too much and not moving enough. Even over time, things dont pop out to a doctor to order the relevent tests.
I am not saying some dont log correctly or lie to themselves, but just trying to bring awareness to the fact that some have medical problems and without knowing what or why find a diet that works for them when a SAD failed.0 -
jenglish712 wrote: »I'm not a Low carber, but right now while in deficit I certainly have some days that are pretty low carb to make goals if I have a particularly fatty meat that throws fats way over to hit a protein goal. I know an uncharacteristically high or low day in Carbs or salt affects my weight... but it's just signal noise. It's water weight not fat. But I think people occasionally see the sudden jump when low carbing and think it's magic.
and we all want to believe in magic…don't we, don't we, don't we??????
we do, right?0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
I agree, but knowing something is wrong and getting a doctor to acknowledge that is often two different times. Some women on my friends list have had it take over 10 months before the PCP finally understood she wasnt lying about her CI or CO and send her a referral to an endocrinologist who specialized in her problem.
It took me 2 years to get a referral to an endocrinologist. That was after gaining over 100 lbs in less than 3 years.
That would be a perfect example. I dont know if you were on MFP during that 3 year period but many here were. They were logging, then came here to ask why it wasnt working, got some good advice so they lowered their calories, weighed in grams, didnt lick spoons, fed their family over salted food cause they refused to taste it before serving because they ditn know how to log a lick, exercised more, etc (all weird but true examples that I've heard/read from those who suffer from medical issues). Then they came back here and said no still not working and basically got told they were still eating too much or not moving enough, so they went and changed that. A few ended up eating under the 1200 threshold and were exercising and not counting those calories and still werent losing or were losing so very slowly it wasnt worth the hangry, hair loss, etc that came with it.
Unfortunately it takes time to get answers from either your diet or your doctor, sometimes, like for you, it takes years and in that time you want to give up, cry, throw thing, all of the above because you KNOW you are logging every single thing you eat as accurately as humanly possible and if it works for everyone else, why isnt it working for you? You arent a special snowflake, so why cant you lose weight like everyone else?
At first, I was doing it by hand. Then I came to MFP. Much easier.
I can relate to everything you said. As someone who was very underweight from the time I was born (I was born 2 months early and barely weighed 3 lbs) to age 18 when I was diagnosed with Crohn's and began medications, I knew something was wrong when I started gaining weight.
I ate a TON of food prior to and couldn't gain a pound. I get prescribed all these meds to control Crohn's and anxiety, and all of the sudden, I double in size. Despite changing my diet, eating less, exercising, etc. It didn't add up.0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »So no, it's not the only way to lose, and it doesn't trump CICO (although I think it does help regulate hormones).
This is the issue for many on LCHF. There are stories upon stories of ppl who ate a SAD, say 1500 calories a day and exercised and didnt lose weight or gained. Then they ate 1500 calories a day and exercised but ate LCHF and they lost weight in the short and long terms. Insulin is a hormone, if you have high insulin like IR or hormonal weirdness like PCOS, hormones play a HUGE roll in how you process what you eat and the types of food you eat.
So 1500 is a deficit yes, but what you eat, for many, is more important that how much you eat when it comes to weightloss.
wouldn't medicine for said medical conditions affect the "out" side of CO so at the end of the day, barring a medical condition, they would lose the same as the other person if they were both on 1500….
Sometimes Yes I would think so. But if you've ever been on Metformin, which is what the most popular IR med is, the more carbs you eat the more things 'run' thru you. Being on the potty all day with LBS (leaky butt syndrome) is horrid. And even then, the meds only control so much insulin production, doesnt fix it. So eating a SAD is still going to cause some insulin problems and spikes even if you are on the max dose of Met.
IR and PCOS and Metabolic Syndrome are not curable, anymore than diabetes is. You can get rid of some or all of the symptoms if you eat correctly for your condition and keep the weight off. But if you go back to eating carbs, the symptoms come back.
And I am not sure there are many who would rather medicate themselves on things that 1.quit working with few backup meds to turn to or 2. be on meds the rest of their lives instead of helping their medical condition thru food.
So yes, the Met changes the CO but you have to know you have that medical condition in the first place, which often comes AFTER you've come here to the mfp or other forums complaining you are weighing and measuring correctly, you are eating (insert low amount of calories here) and you arent losing weight and then get ridiculed by those who firmly believe CICO is the beginning and end of the discussion.
As i stated before, the LCHF boards have repeatedly confirmed that the majority, but not all, who do LCHF have some sort of medical problem that LCHF helps tremendously.
thankfully, I have never had to take meds for any kind of insulin or metabolic syndrome..
usually, when people come back and say they are logging accurately and use a food scale, my next round of advice is to go to DR and get tested for medical condition ….
Many on here will basically call the person who said this that they were lying and to open their diary for more inspection, etc long BEFORE they are given suggestions on what to ask for from the Doctor. Not saying you do, as I dont know you or your posting history really. But Ive seen that scenario often and some come to the 'haven' of the LCHF boards after being berated here.
General doctors often dont know what to look for. They run the standard simple thyroid test and usually and A1C and if they are normal, which for IR, PCOS and metabolic syndrome tey usually are, tell to eat less and move more and send you on your way. You have to actually know to ask for a fasting insulin test. With IR and Metabolic syndrome at least, your A1C and glucose levels are almost always dead set normal, it is the insulin that is very high and that's the problem.
So a little understanding that ppl dont know to ask for these things or are aware of these issues before the SAD fails them helps all of us be more mentally and physically healthy.
If you have a good endocrinologist, you won't have to ask for anything. Especially not something as simple as a fasting insulin test. .
Only if you know you need an endorcrinologist to begin with. Who randomly asks to see one unless they know there is a problem first? That can often be the problem they ask their regular doctor and he doesnt know enough to send them to an endocrinologist and their numbers are normal so he figures, like many here, they are lying about what they eat and how much they move and send them home.
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo.
Unless they've never known what it's like not to feel the way they do. They might well take it for granted that that's their normal. Or sure, they may wonder, "why do I feel so bad", but find themselves told "hey, you're good, see look at these numbers [perhaps not the relevant ones], it's all in your head".
That's very true but most people develop metabolic syndrome and/or insulin resistance over time… They usually aren't born with it. So chances are they felt a certain way BEFORE beginning to develop metabolic syndrome. Then came the dizziness, extreme hunger, shakiness, abdominal weight gain, vision problems, etc.
Sure, I was told I was hypoglycemic even tho I never had a test showing I had low blood sugar and that's why i was dizzy or hungry, etc. Some were told just to eat less and the hunger would stop, or not to stand up so fast and the dizziness would go away, or the weight gain was because they were eating too much and not moving enough. Even over time, things dont pop out to a doctor to order the relevent tests.
I am not saying some dont log correctly or lie to themselves, but just trying to bring awareness to the fact that some have medical problems and without knowing what or why find a diet that works for them when a SAD failed.
The sad truth about our healthcare system!0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
I know right! He is usually so unopinionated and undecisive about his beliefs. Letting all these low-carbers walk all over him and use him like some sort of rag doll!
I'm shocked.
:laugh:
bahahahaha ..you guys are funny …
yes, I am unopinionated and indecisive ….*slinks off to corner to sulk*
You really shouldn't let people kick you around so much.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »I am going to throw this one out there, because I got into a debate with someone in another thread and it left me pretty mind blown. The persons basic assumptions where the following:
1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
Before all my low carb friends come flying in here to say that I am knocking low carb, let me be clear that is not what I am doing. The way that I see it is that low carb, IIFYM, keto, IF, etc are just tools to get one into a calorie deficit, and one is not superior to the other. I just get mind blown when people say "I calorie restricted and lost nothing, but when I went low carb I lost" or "fat loss only happens when one is low carb" or "CICO does not apply to me and only low carb works for me" and on and on….
I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
It would be nice if some low carbers came in here and acutely refuted this…
OR
if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
ETA - I am not referring to people that have to low carb due to a medical condition. However, CICO would still apply in that instance….
Wait. Stop. Hold the phone. There is revolutionary information in this post....
Keep waiting......
You were in a debate with someone? In a forum thread!? This is groundbreaking!
I know right! He is usually so unopinionated and undecisive about his beliefs. Letting all these low-carbers walk all over him and use him like some sort of rag doll!
I'm shocked.
:laugh:
bahahahaha ..you guys are funny …
yes, I am unopinionated and indecisive ….*slinks off to corner to sulk*
You really shouldn't let people kick you around so much.
I know, I know..I am such a pushover...0 -
I appreciate all the low carbers coming in here and validating that they agree with CICO ..this has been a great thread and not the dumpster fire that I thought it might be….0
-
It's really best used in conjunction with CICO. LC/HF and CICO pretty much go hand in hand.0
-
.[/quote]
A person who is in-tune with their body typically knows when something is up.
If a person is eating frequently, ravenously hungry, gaining weight, etc., it's usually pretty apparent that something is going on with their endocrine system.
A person has to see their PCP for a referral anyways. If a person continues to suffer, most PCP's will refer them to an endo. [/quote]
In general I agree with you. However there are many exceptions to the rule and often being " in tune with one's body " is just not enough.
I am fairly in tune with my body and when in my mid-50's I started to feel bad I saw a doctor. After a row of tests menopause was blamed on my never ending fatigue, weakness, sweats, changes in dietary requirements, very moderate weight gain ( I had been normal weight until then ) and I had no reason to not believe him.
In my early 40's I had a hysterectomy due to cervical cancer and had one ovary left, but obviously no period.
For four years I went though the worst " menopause " imaginable and tried all kinds of treatments until I felt so bad that I paid pretty much every panel available out of pocket to see, if there was something else wrong.
While in the hospital and with my thyroid panel within the " normal " range I fell into a mixedemic coma ( a total thyroid and adrenaline burn out ) which showed that I had severe hypothyroidism ( that later developed into systemic Lupus ) and thyroid cancer.
This showed me that being intuitively in touch with one's body is good, but sometimes not enough. Often we need systemically look for what is wrong, have tests done and deal with the consequences.
Reading the threads I find too often that women self-diagnose and assume because several posters have a certain problem and they share the symptoms, that they must have the same.
As an example; I know too many people who claim they have Celiac disease, but have never been diagnosed. Celiac syndrome is a serious health problem and deserves and needs medical attention. The same is true for many endocrinological problems.
I live and work in Mexico in the Public Nutrition and Health field. When I hear a woman complain about eating frequently , being ravenously hungry and gaining weight my first thought is of parasites, because they are much more frequent here than problem with the endocrine system, but I am also aware that both need medical attention and that often, if it is not one it is easily the other.
0 -
all right night peeps place nice, I am off to bed….
It should be interesting to see how many notifications I have on this thread in the AM …LOL0
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