Can I petition MFP users to use the terms "more ideal" and "less ideal" instead of good/bad foods?
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Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie.
A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
so your not doing paleo any more?
why would highly processed food be fake? Does processing make it not real anymore?0 -
so your not doing paleo any more?
why would highly processed food be fake? Does processing make it not real anymore?
Yes, I try very hard to stick with a paleo style regime but luckily for me the paleo god is very forgiving as I get sidetracked occasionally.
I eat mostly home cooked food and avoid any foods that have been sitting on the supermarket shelf for the past twelve months. I shop on the outskirts of the supermarket and very rarely buy packet or tin items.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I've changed my behavior in the past based on risks I'm sufficiently convinced about--it's why I don't eat trans fats or much fried food (not saying anyone should come to the same conclusions I have, and the fried thing has as much to do with calories).
Are you saying foods high in trans fats are bad?
Answered fully in the other thread (following me taking a moment to sort out my thoughts). If you didn't read it and want me to answer here (assuming I'm not the only one unable to find that thread), let me know.
On the other hand, if you replied to my response, I'm interested.
that thread got nuked....
so I guess we are all moving over here..
Man, I was looking forward to reading the new posts on that after an exceedingly long day of field work
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Did the other thread get nuked before we had a consensus on whether or not the FDA was wrong for labeling trans fats as "bad" food?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941190/ argues the case for and against banning artificial trans fats (as opposed to the ones that just happen to turn up in nature).
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Did the other thread get nuked before we had a consensus on whether or not the FDA was wrong for labeling trans fats as "bad" food?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941190/ argues the case for and against banning artificial trans fats (as opposed to the ones that just happen to turn up in nature).
A short form of my answer from the other thread (and I'm also sorry it got nuked, it seemed like vigorous but not nasty argument last time I saw it, and an interesting discussion):
I don't care for the word "bad" for food as I think it too easily has moralistic connotations and is too subjective--bad could refer to taste or harmfulness or simply being contrary to one person's goals and thus not applicable to others (why "bad for me" is preferable to "bad" if that's what you mean).
However, I don't have a huge objection to it being used to mean "harmful in any quantity" and I am not close-minded to the possibility that some things we have included in our diets might be (I'm not excited about the ingredients in many old time patent medicines, say, or even drinking cocaine in my soda). I am not up on the science enough to know if artificial transfats have been shown to fall in that category but they certainly might--that's one reason I choose to avoid them when possible (which it generally is).
What I find objectionable is the common use here of "bad" for foods that are high in calories and not that nutrient dense, which are harmless in moderate, limited quantities (defined by one's overall diet and calorie needs). Eating some less nutrient dense foods (like rice or, say, ice cream) doesn't preclude you from eating more nutrient dense foods and getting all the nutrients you need and focusing on the evils of Oreos does nothing to make sure you get in your protein, veggies, and necessary fats. Indeed, from my observations here, many of those who go on about "bad foods" the most are using it as a substitute for actually understanding and constructing a health-promoting diet. Thus, I think the whole "bad food" thing is usually a distraction as well as psychologically unhelpful for many in thinking about food rationally, which would be ideal.
I have been willing to listen to evidence as to how specific food items are "bad" (meaning harmful in themselves, regardless of the context) and with the exception of the transfat issue (and transfats aren't in much anymore), very little has been provided. Most of the argument has been that X is bad because a diet of only X would be bad, which is not a good argument at all.0 -
Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie. A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
There is apple pie, and there is apple pie. I saw a recipe on this site that called for 1 cup of sugar in a single apple pie. And, to keep the pie from being soggy 1 cup of flour! How would you have room for apples?!?
My grandma's recipe calls for 2 Tbs. of each and she used cooking (crab) apples, not the ultra sweet store bought apples of today.
IMO my grandma's pie is healthier.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie. A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
There is apple pie, and there is apple pie. I saw a recipe on this site that called for 1 cup of sugar in a single apple pie. And, to keep the pie from being soggy 1 cup of flour! How would you have room for apples?!?
My grandma's recipe calls for 2 Tbs. of each and she used cooking (crab) apples, not the ultra sweet store bought apples of today.
IMO my grandma's pie is healthier.
What about your grandma's pie makes it healthier? If I bake a pie using the extra flour and sugar, calculate the recipe and add the serving to my food diary while fitting it into my macro, micro, and calorie goals, why would a serving of your grandma's pie be healthier than the one I ate?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie. A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
There is apple pie, and there is apple pie. I saw a recipe on this site that called for 1 cup of sugar in a single apple pie. And, to keep the pie from being soggy 1 cup of flour! How would you have room for apples?!?
My grandma's recipe calls for 2 Tbs. of each and she used cooking (crab) apples, not the ultra sweet store bought apples of today.
IMO my grandma's pie is healthier.
What about your grandma's pie makes it healthier? If I bake a pie using the extra flour and sugar, calculate the recipe and add the serving to my food diary while fitting it into my macro, micro, and calorie goals, why would a serving of your grandma's pie be healthier than the one I ate?
Because apples are better than table sugar and flour IMO Also, it would taste a lot better and have a better texture.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie. A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
There is apple pie, and there is apple pie. I saw a recipe on this site that called for 1 cup of sugar in a single apple pie. And, to keep the pie from being soggy 1 cup of flour! How would you have room for apples?!?
My grandma's recipe calls for 2 Tbs. of each and she used cooking (crab) apples, not the ultra sweet store bought apples of today.
IMO my grandma's pie is healthier.
What about your grandma's pie makes it healthier? If I bake a pie using the extra flour and sugar, calculate the recipe and add the serving to my food diary while fitting it into my macro, micro, and calorie goals, why would a serving of your grandma's pie be healthier than the one I ate?
Because apples are better than table sugar and flour IMO Also, it would taste a lot better and have a better texture.
So, by no objective standard are they healthier and/or better. It's only a statement of your opinion?0 -
Here is a comparison between a supermarket apple pie and a homemade one.
SUPERMARKET APPLE PIE:
FILLING: SLICED APPLES, CORN SYRUP, WATER, BROWN SUGAR, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SPICE, SALT, CITRIC ACID, ASCORBIC ACID, PRESERVED WITH SODIUM BENZOATE.
CRUST: WHEAT FLOUR, VEGETABLE SHORTENING (PALM OIL AND SOYBEAN OIL WITH MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES), WATER, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: DEXTROSE, SALT, CITRUS FIBER, WHEY, BAKING SODA, BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR WITH MALTED BARLEY, PRESERVED WITH POTASSIUM SORBATE.
RANDOM HOMEMADE APPLE PIE
Ingredients
for the pastry
• 250g plain flour, plus extra for dusting
• 50g icing sugar
• sea salt
• 1 lemon
• 125g cold butter, plus extra for greasing
• 1 large egg, preferably free-range or organic
• a splash of milk
for the filling
• 1 large Bramley cooking apple
• 4 eating apples
• 3 tablespoons Demerara or muscovado sugar
• ½ teaspoon ground ginger
• a handful of sultanas or raisins
• ½ a lemon
You have to admit you can almost smell the homemade apple pie. The first one sounds horrible.0 -
Here is a comparison between a supermarket apple pie and a homemade one.
SUPERMARKET APPLE PIE:
FILLING: SLICED APPLES, CORN SYRUP, WATER, BROWN SUGAR, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SPICE, SALT, CITRIC ACID, ASCORBIC ACID, PRESERVED WITH SODIUM BENZOATE.
CRUST: WHEAT FLOUR, VEGETABLE SHORTENING (PALM OIL AND SOYBEAN OIL WITH MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES), WATER, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: DEXTROSE, SALT, CITRUS FIBER, WHEY, BAKING SODA, BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR WITH MALTED BARLEY, PRESERVED WITH POTASSIUM SORBATE.
RANDOM HOMEMADE APPLE PIE
Ingredients
for the pastry
• 250g plain flour, plus extra for dusting
• 50g icing sugar
• sea salt
• 1 lemon
• 125g cold butter, plus extra for greasing
• 1 large egg, preferably free-range or organic
• a splash of milk
for the filling
• 1 large Bramley cooking apple
• 4 eating apples
• 3 tablespoons Demerara or muscovado sugar
• ½ teaspoon ground ginger
• a handful of sultanas or raisins
• ½ a lemon
You have to admit you can almost smell the homemade apple pie. The first one sounds horrible.
I have tasted some atrocious homemade pies and the best pie I've ever tasted was bought at a store.0 -
so your not doing paleo any more?
why would highly processed food be fake? Does processing make it not real anymore?
Yes, I try very hard to stick with a paleo style regime but luckily for me the paleo god is very forgiving as I get sidetracked occasionally.
I eat mostly home cooked food and avoid any foods that have been sitting on the supermarket shelf for the past twelve months. I shop on the outskirts of the supermarket and very rarely buy packet or tin items.
last time I checked I don't think paleolithic people were eating apple pie and donuts, so you are definitely not doing paleo.
Nice deflection on my question about processed foods...why are they "fake"? Does processing make them not real?
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That is because my nanna's recipe died with her. OMG it was amazing, she was such a good cook. 0
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Here is a comparison between a supermarket apple pie and a homemade one.
SUPERMARKET APPLE PIE:
FILLING: SLICED APPLES, CORN SYRUP, WATER, BROWN SUGAR, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SPICE, SALT, CITRIC ACID, ASCORBIC ACID, PRESERVED WITH SODIUM BENZOATE.
CRUST: WHEAT FLOUR, VEGETABLE SHORTENING (PALM OIL AND SOYBEAN OIL WITH MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES), WATER, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: DEXTROSE, SALT, CITRUS FIBER, WHEY, BAKING SODA, BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR WITH MALTED BARLEY, PRESERVED WITH POTASSIUM SORBATE.
RANDOM HOMEMADE APPLE PIE
Ingredients
for the pastry
• 250g plain flour, plus extra for dusting
• 50g icing sugar
• sea salt
• 1 lemon
• 125g cold butter, plus extra for greasing
• 1 large egg, preferably free-range or organic
• a splash of milk
for the filling
• 1 large Bramley cooking apple
• 4 eating apples
• 3 tablespoons Demerara or muscovado sugar
• ½ teaspoon ground ginger
• a handful of sultanas or raisins
• ½ a lemon
You have to admit you can almost smell the homemade apple pie. The first one sounds horrible.
if I get an apple pie from the bakery is it bad/fake because processed????0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Moving right along before this thread gets hit by a bolt of lightening - I actually, in my head, refer to food as "healthy" or "unhealthy."lemurcat12 wrote: »That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?
I agree Lemurcat, no one will ever convince me that homemade apple pie is bad for me! I grew up eating my nanna's apple pie. A scoop of gelato or a hot donut straight off the machine will do me no harm in conjunction with a balanced diet.
Before I eat something, I ask myself "will this food nourish me or give me a gut ache?" Will I get a headache after eating it or will it make me feel unwell. Generally, I find a small amount does me no harm but I normally stay away from highly processed, fake foods.
There is apple pie, and there is apple pie. I saw a recipe on this site that called for 1 cup of sugar in a single apple pie. And, to keep the pie from being soggy 1 cup of flour! How would you have room for apples?!?
My grandma's recipe calls for 2 Tbs. of each and she used cooking (crab) apples, not the ultra sweet store bought apples of today.
IMO my grandma's pie is healthier.
What about your grandma's pie makes it healthier? If I bake a pie using the extra flour and sugar, calculate the recipe and add the serving to my food diary while fitting it into my macro, micro, and calorie goals, why would a serving of your grandma's pie be healthier than the one I ate?
Because apples are better than table sugar and flour IMO Also, it would taste a lot better and have a better texture.
So, by no objective standard are they healthier and/or better. It's only a statement of your opinion?
If I posted some medical or health sites that said apples were better than table sugar, would you change your opinion?0 -
last time I checked I don't think paleolithic people were eating apple pie and donuts, so you are definitely not doing paleo.
Nice deflection on my question about processed foods...why are they "fake"? Does processing make them not real?
My nanna died close on 30 years ago. Just reminiscing. And the last time I ate a donut would be 10 years ago but I still remember the taste as I smell the donuts cooking at a donut shop. Even if I ate it, it would be a tiny percentage of my regular food.
A good bakery can produce an amazing apple pie. To me, my first example is fake.0 -
last time I checked I don't think paleolithic people were eating apple pie and donuts, so you are definitely not doing paleo.
Nice deflection on my question about processed foods...why are they "fake"? Does processing make them not real?
My nanna died close on 30 years ago. Just reminiscing. And the last time I ate a donut would be 10 years ago but I still remember the taste as I smell the donuts cooking at a donut shop. Even if I ate it, it would be a tiny percentage of my regular food.
A good bakery can produce an amazing apple pie. To me, my first example is fake.
why is it fake though? It still provides calories/macros/micros...so how it can not be real????
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at best we're arguing about the difference in white and brown rice on this apple pie issue...0
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