Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?

NekoneMeowMixx

I apologize if this comes off as horrendously naive and full of noob questions, but I've found a lot of conflicting/confusing information, so I just want to get the facts straight. I'm a 23 year old woman, 5 foot 6" tall, with the current specs:

131.2 pounds
22.1% body fat
21 BMI

When I started my fitness journey, I had reached approximately 144 pounds, and my goal was to get down to 125. I guess I'm what you'd call "skinny fat", and I'm realizing that the closer I get to my "goal weight" the more I'm questioning if "losing weight" should be my focus? I want to get toned and lean, so I'm not sure what the best way to go about that is.

Currently I've doing 3 days of Stronglifts 5x5, and 3 days of cardio (primarily bicycling, either outdoors or stationary, depending on the weather) and yoga on Sundays. Between Myfitnesspal's recommendations, and a little research of my own, my current "daily goals" are as follows:

Calorie Limit: 1,400/day
Carbs/day: 122.75g
Fat/day: 62.0 g
Protein/day: 87.75g

Calories Burned from normal activity: 1,910 cal/day
Calorie Burn Goal: 890 cal/week
Daily Calorie Deficit: 510 calories
Projected weight loss: 1 lb/week

Since adhering to these goals, I've gone from 140 to 131 in approximately 2 months' time. But despite working out and burning 250+ calories daily, I seem to have hit a plateau. I've noticed minimal muscle growth, and while I understand that it's a *process*, and therefore will take a while, I just want to make sure I'm going about this the right way. No pain, no gain, but I don't want to be making things harder than they need to be! Or worse, making backwards progress...

All advice is very appreciated!

rick_po

What kind of plateau have you hit? A lifting plateau, or a weight loss plateau? And how long have you been stuck?

AllanMisner

Muscle gains while on a calorie deficit is not likely to happen. You’ve seen some gain, but that had more to do with being new to lifting and keeping your deficit at a reasonable level.

If you want to go for both, then you’ll need to lower your expectations of each. Here’s how I would do it:
- Change the calorie deficit to 250 per day (this will slow your fat loss).
- Increase your protein a little.
- Change your rep range from 5 to 8, but still lift as heavy as you can (shift from strength to hypertrophy focus).

It might take another two months to see any tangible results.

jemhh

At your calorie and body fat levels, building muscle in a deficit would be difficult enough that I'd say it is unlikely.

You don't say how much cardio you are doing but I am guessing that your TDEE is higher than 1910 and that your deficit is nearing 1000/day, not 500/day. That's a steep deficit considering your weight loss goal. When I'm trying to lose weight, I can go only down to around 1800 without losing strength (I'm 5'6" with a similar activity level fwiw.) I'm wondering if your feeling of being on a plateau would be decreased if you increased your calories. At least that way you could be increasing strength, even without increasing muscle mass.

What, exactly, do you mean by "toned and lean"?

jmaidan

You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!

CarlydogsMom

First of all, you are at 131 and want to get to around 125, and you've set your MFP weight loss goal to 1 pound a week, AND you want to build muscle and lose weight at the same time? I think you have several goals that have virtually opposite ways of getting there all mashed into the same time frame.

Personally (and there are many others who probably know more than I do) I think you're on some diametrically opposed paths. First, I think setting your weight loss to 1 lb per week is really high given that you essentially are on the last 5-6 pounds you want to lose.

Second, if you want to gain muscle mass, while some initial weight training would be beneficial in increasing strength while on a deficit, you're not going to make much progress on the weight-lifting and muscle-volume gaining while 1) in a deficit; and 2) in such an extreme deficit given you're on your last 5-6 pounds.

Third, with your 1-lb loss per week at your weight, and given the workout load you're putting yourself in, both in cardio and weights, I can't imagine that you're not going to burn out at some point.

So....I highly recommend the following:

1. Give up on your weight loss goal FOR A SHORT WHILE. Try setting your weight goals to maintenance, or even gaining a half-pound per week.
2. Focus on lifting progressively heavier weights, continuing to use your Stronglifts program.
3. You will begin building muscle and adding fat at a very slow rate. Yes, it's scary, but essentially you'd be getting into a short "bulk" and then later "cut" cycle. The slight excess in calories will allow your muscles to grow. A small bit of fat will also be added, but you already know how to lose fat. Do not freak out, do not worry. It's ok, I promise. Enjoy the bulk phase of eating. Yum.
4. Focus on getting the right amount of protein (at least 0.8 to 1 gram of protein for every pound of lean body mass) and fill out the rest in carbs/fat.
5. Let Stronglifts do its work. Progress on weights. Keep cardio to whatever you feel you WANT to do...but you won't NEED to do much, if any at all. Don't do it if it's not what you really truly feel like doing. Give yourself a freaking break and focus on those weights.
6. Try this for a couple months. Watch your strength build, keep track of your weight. You will gain slightly, but the strength and slight growth in muscle will be highly noticeable, and rather addicting.
7. After at a minimum of a couple months doing this, start your cut. Set your goals to lose about a 1/2-lb a week, keep on strength training, then add a bit more cardio. This will generate more in fat loss and maintenance of muscle. You won't be gaining alot of muscle mass if you're on a cut, but you should be able to at least maintain your strength at the last, or slightly lower, weights you lifted at during your bulk.
8. End of summer, you'll have lost the little bit of fat you gained during your bulk; you'll have built stronger muscles, and you'll look more lean...and I promise you won't give a crap if you're 131 or 125. I can virtually guarantee you'll look better regardless of the number on the scale.

To continue on as you're doing--trying to lose weight fast (1 pound / week when you only want to lose 5 pounds???), but build muscle at the same time, and while doing a ton of cardio (which works to lose both fat and muscle; contradictory to your goal of building muscle) is an exercise in futility, and you'll end up just being frustrated. Work on one goal at a time and be patient. Good things come to those who wait, AND who lift heavy.

NekoneMeowMixx

@CarlydogsMom‌ Thank you for bringing that to my attention! I had set that goal back when I was in the 140's, and it honestly hasn't crossed my mind to change it. Would I want to do -0.5lb/week? Responding to your bullet points via numbered list as it's easier to keep organized:

1. I've pretty much dropped my weight loss goal, at least the "I want to be ###pounds" altogether at this point. I don't care so much about the number on the scale so much as shedding inches and getting my body fat percentage down. Ideally, I'd like to be between 16 - 18% (I'll know better once I get closer)

2. Would you suggest going up to 8 reps, as was recommended before? Or stick to the 5 sets, 5 reps? I lift heavy enough to put myself just below exhaustion each set

3. You are the first person to ever tell me this, but it honestly makes more sense... I thought that the calories burned from normal activity (1,910) didn't include my workout calories (averaging 250 - 400 calories a day) So I guess my burn would be closer to 2210 calories a day, meaning my defecit (if I don't eat my calories from working out back, which I do) would be like, 810... which I can see how that is scary... O.o

4. If I'm doing my calculations right, my lean body mass would be like, 100 pounds? I assume it's just whatever % isn't body fat...

5. I loathe cardio with every fiber of my being, but I LOVE being on the bike, so it's not really work at all to me. When I was doing 21 Day Fix late last fall (and not very diligently, either) but doing 4 - 8 mile bike rides a few times a week, and even my boyfriend noticed I had trimmed right up!

6. So my weight may go up, but overall, BMI and body fat should decrease gradually? (after a perhaps initial rise) I guess my biggest worry is that I won't see the weight gain in the form of muscle, but more pouch in my belly, and essentially undoing the progress I've made so far.

8. Sounds like a plan to me!
9.
Very, very, very appreciated! This has been soooo appreciated! xD

CarlydogsMom

OK, I'll try to respond to your numbers from my numbers

1. Good. All good. I guess if body fat % is a goal, get a good test of your baseline/starting point as you are now. Recognizing that body fat measurement tools vary in their accuracy, so use only one method at all times, and recognize that it's really the trend you're after, not necessarily that exact number from the measurement (i.e. calipers can only do so much, but if you use the same calipers over time, you should be able to see a trend).
2. Stick with 5x5. If you're concentrating on growing muscles, lifting heavier weights for fewer reps beats more reps at lighter weights.
3. You're welcome.
4. Yeah, I go with trying to get about 100-120 grams protein in a day. In general, I'd bet 100 would be fine for you. You can always go a bit higher. It's kind of challenging to get that much in, but protein powder helps.
5. I bike too, that's my main form of cardio. I slack off in winter, but that's when I set my bulking phase to begin, then cut in the summer.
6. Yes, you're weight may go up. Probably "should" go up is the better way to put it. You WANT to grow your muscles; you can't build a brick wall without bricks at the ready. Your body won't (in general) grab energy from your existing fat to build those muscles; it needs the extra energy you get from food to grow.
7. Take a look at the groups here, there's one "Stronglifts 5x5 for women" and "Eat, Train, Progress." Both are active and have great moderators.

And have fun! Seeing yourself get stronger is just amazing. I have only been lifting this past winter. I had lost a bunch of weight a few years ago, maintained but always was challenged over the long winter to keep the pounds at bay. So this fall I joined my local gym and started in with a personal trainer. I'm so glad I did, it's one of the best investments I've ever made for myself.

It was scary for me, too, when he said right in the beginning "I want you to eat above maintenance, you're going to gain 10 pounds over this winter." I almost went into shock. Then he explained essentially what I told you--some will be muscle, some will be fat, but you know how to lose the fat. Give it a shot.

So I did. In the past 5 months, yup, I've gained about 10 pounds. But I KNOW I've gotten stronger (overhead press went from barely 20 pounds to 70; squats from 45 to 105; deadlifts from maybe 55 to 145 as of last week, etc. etc.). I'm not lifting nearly so heavy as some of the totally awesome women on this site, but I'm getting there. I'm also turning 53 in about 6 weeks, and I'm ok with these numbers. I'm getting there. Also planning my first ride of the spring this coming Saturday, and the cutting will commence!!!! I can't wait until this fall, to see the results of this one-year attempt at gaining strength and subsequently losing fat. Then it begins again! Let's do it!!!

RGv2

jmaidan wrote: »

You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!

Nobody said you can't, but it is extremely slow, the deficit can't be too big and takes painstaking effort, especially for someone who's been training for awhile where noob gains won't be there to lean on.

Also, in this case, you're a dude and OP is a female. It is much easier for you to put on muscle in a deficit than it will be for the OP, because....you know, testosterone and stuff.

And, you don't need to make sure you're "eating clean", FWIW.

RoxieDawn

to the OP what @carlydogsmom said.. Great explaination.

P.S. You are not "skinny fat" alone... I am one as well..

NekoneMeowMixx

@CarlydogsMom‌ You are truly amazing me with your stellarness, and are truly a wealth of information!! As I'm nervous about taking any big, big steps, I decided I'd meet you on the middle for the daily calorie intake, adjusted my macros, and we'll see where I am in a month or so's time:

Net Calories Consumed: 1,500 cal/day
Carbs/Day: 131g
Fat/Day: 67g
Protein/Day: 94g (as I work out, my macros all go up, so I felt this was a good start, and I'll just shoot to go a little over each day)

Daily Calorie Deficit 210 calories

I feel like this is definitely a step in the right direction. Little steps lead to big changes!

And you are crazy motivation material! I was very sad to find the other day that the Smith machine at Planet Fitness has a 20lb bar, and not 45lb bar as a normal olympic bench would have. (I thought it felt light...) So that was super bumming, but as it stands (after doing all the recalculating/adjustments) I'm currently doing the following:

Squats: 70lbs
OH Press: 30lbs
Bench: 40lbs

My best squat is High School was like, 230 pounds (I could only do 1 rep, but still) got a long way to go, and I look forward to getting there!

MzShelleRenea

@carlydogsmom I know it wasn't addressed to me, but you made some great points that I appreciated.

NekoneMeowMixx

RGv2 wrote: »

jmaidan wrote: »

You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!

Nobody said you can't, but it is extremely slow, the deficit can't be too big and takes painstaking effort, especially for someone who's been training for awhile where noob gains won't be there to lean on.

Also, in this case, you're a dude and OP is a female. It is much easier for you to put on muscle in a deficit than it will be for the OP, because....you know, testosterone and stuff.

And, you don't need to make sure you're "eating clean", FWIW.

Heh, thank you. I think that's one thing that people really fail to realize, is just how different men and women's bodies work. I mean, sure, one day I'll be able to out-bench half the dudes at the gym (lol, yeah right) but our bodies are far better suited for sad movie marathons and ice cream binges than gaining muscle (sorry, not sorry) xP

RGv2

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

RGv2 wrote: »

jmaidan wrote: »

You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!

Nobody said you can't, but it is extremely slow, the deficit can't be too big and takes painstaking effort, especially for someone who's been training for awhile where noob gains won't be there to lean on.

Also, in this case, you're a dude and OP is a female. It is much easier for you to put on muscle in a deficit than it will be for the OP, because....you know, testosterone and stuff.

And, you don't need to make sure you're "eating clean", FWIW.

Heh, thank you. I think that's one thing that people really fail to realize, is just how different men and women's bodies work. I mean, sure, one day I'll be able to out-bench half the dudes at the gym (lol, yeah right) but our bodies are far better suited for sad movie marathons and ice cream binges than gaining muscle (sorry, not sorry) xP

Not sure if that needs a sarcasm sign or not, or if that is a dig at the statement.

NekoneMeowMixx

@RGv2‌ -- I was serious, in the fact that I agree that it is harder for us to gain muscle due to the lack of testosterone. My "ice cream and sad movies" referenced our evil abundance of estrogen, and also points out my terrible sense of humor...

But no, I genuinely did appreciate you mentioning that, because seriously, people overlook that when they tell me I should be eating 2500 calories a day, and I'm like, errr-- how?! Hah

RGv2

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

@RGv2‌ -- I was serious, in the fact that I agree that it is harder for us to gain muscle due to the lack of testosterone. My "ice cream and sad movies" referenced our evil abundance of estrogen, and also points out my terrible sense of humor...

But no, I genuinely did appreciate you mentioning that, because seriously, people overlook that when they tell me I should be eating 2500 calories a day, and I'm like, errr-- how?! Hah

lisag0109

I feel like you do @NekoneMeowMixx‌ ! We're somewhat similar except I'm 45yo, 5'5", 137#, 24%bf. I lost 50# and have been maintaining since October 2014 within 3-5# allowance.

Thank you @CarlydogsMom‌ for the great info and inspiration!

I've been going back and forth on this subject trying to figure it all out as well. I gained a few pounds since early this year and can't seem to shed them, decided to start lifting heavy, but scared to death to up my calories! Made the decision to go for it this week and moved up in calories. Trying to hit at least 1400, maybe a few more on lifting days. Starting slow, but I definitely want to get stronger and lose body fat, but the scale # is a little scary. I'm trying hard to remember the way I look and feel is more important than the number on the scale, especially since I've decided this new healthy lifestyle is where it's at!

I think trial and error is involved just like losing the weight was.

Good luck in your journey @NekoneMeowMixx‌ and thank you again @CarlydogsMom‌ for sharing your knowledge! I know I'm anxious and excited all at the same time for the next phase!

Azdak

You are getting good info. Just wanted to add that you are not "skinny fat". You may not be as muscular as you would like, but an LBM of 100-105 lbs for your height is perfectly average.

GrannyCrayCray

OP: Thanks for posting this topic - lots of good questions. @Carlydogsmom Thanks for the nicely detailed responses. The suggestions for Groups (Eat, Train, Progress and lifting forum for women) are also very helpful.

heyitshorse

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heyitshorse

I'm a guy who is 23. From hear-say and experience, net muscle gain on a caloric defecit is 'difficult' and unlikely. But maintaining it is possible.

Let me share with you my mistakes from past experience this year. Avoid these

case 1) bro-bulk / not tracking macros
I could gain muscle easily when on a ~700 caloric excess, however my fat gain would would almost be the same weight. I guestimate I gained 5 pounds of muscle and 5 pounds of fat in 5 months. I went from 155 to165, bf%=18

case 2) unvaried caloric cut
Then the period after that, I began to cut without a strategy. Just cutting about 700 calories OR MORE everyday again, not working out. I went back to158 bf%=15 and my muscle mass burned off. took about 2 months. BAD IDEA.

case 3) not knowing macros + not knowing how many calories burned by doing excess excercise. (eating less + working more - on the same day)
The period after I tried High Intensity Interval Training cardio. hear-say that is a good method to lose fat but retain muscle better than long cardio. In two weeks I went back to 165lbs, bf% =15, which was good in terms of muscle mass, but not where i wanted to be in terms of fat (i wanted to to be at a single digit). I did not realize I was excercising my *kitten* off more than I knew to reach a caloric defecit. Sometimes I would cut calories and do the same crazy amount of excercise, but BOTH muscles AND fat were burned off. I was eating very little and splurged on some days. In addition i was following a powerlifting progression program, (CNS killer). that with eating less is a nono.
Then i lost track of what happeend during this time and i went to 160, bf 15%.

This is what is working

1. cut calories where u lose 1 lb/week or a safe manageable amount.
2. eat surplus on workout up to recovery days, ie) 48 hours after a workout. (I workout 3x a week: T,TH,SAT or M,W,F)
3. Defecit on the two days of chill (SUN,M or SAT,SUN). Preferably, excercise to a deficit rather than eating a defecit. You lose valuable nutrients if you eat less. excercising to a defecit allows you to still eat enough food for nutrients, as well is not proportional to the feeling of hunger.
4. make sure NET calories are at a total defecit during ONE WEEK.
5? (this here is that bro-science I made up, not backed by science) do hypertrophy workouts rather than strength to make them gains [high volume]

So far i'm 158, bf13%. My lean mass isnt increasing, is minutely decreasing (comes with cutting calories in general), but being moderately maintained and my fat is decreasing.

Too long didn't read? In other words my workout days are cheat days in terms of calories. and my chill days are fasting periods.

(BRo-science) if this theory above is true, there is possibly a way to gain lean mass without gaining fat, by virtue of tracking weekly calories. Perhaps eat surplus on workout days. but maintain basal NET calories in one week.... Gonna try this after mah cut.

hope this helps