Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
Replies
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Agree with @jimmmer. That article was comparing a really intense level of bulking (like 1500-2000 calories over daily maintenance, if I remember right as I skimmed it several days ago), versus what both I and others were suggesting here for you. Call that Bulking with a capital B. The writer even said it's preferable to do what many of us here recommended for you multiple times in this thread: eating in a much lower excess of calories, i.e. 150-200, in order to...again...allow your muscles to grow and to make your weight lifting actually effective in order to meet YOUR stated goals.
Staying at maintenance, you'll probably end up stronger, but you won't see that body re-comp that you want unless you're willing to be really patient, really strict about macro intake, and willing to focus on it for a very long time. Or take the plunge (again, really, why the obsession with staying at maintenance) and just eat in a slight excess for a few months and see what happens.0 -
@CarlydogsMom Okay, that makes a lot more sense then... I kind of got the feeling that he was talking a bit more extreme than I was considering (the lack of numbers/figures aimed towards women made it harder to put into terms for me and my body)
I guess what I'm most struggling to find is my exact numbers to figure out just exactly WHAT that surplus of 150 - 200 is... A coworker let me borrow his Fitbit Flex, which logged me at 1,849 calories burned yesterday. (working 10 hours, no workout)
I did calculations on my BMR (calories burned at rest) and per the site's "enter and calcuate" I got 1436 kcal. When I did the math myself, I got 1410.36
Then came TDEE. With "light exercise" I got 1939.2
"Moderate Exercise" yielded a TDEE of 2186.1
Daily Energy Intake Recommendations for Strength Training gave me 1,809.
So I guess what's most overwhelming me at this point is all these numbers... I just want to make sure that I'm doing this all right...
From what I'm gathering, I'm burning about 1,800 calories (not including exercise) so, I would want to be eating (surplus: 150 - 200) between 1,950 and 2,000 calories a day? And then I would also want to eat back my exercise calories on days when I do that?!
I'm not even worried about weight gain or getting "fat" or whatever at this point. I'm just not sure how the hell to fit that much food into my body! (without risking "empty" calories) I'm used to eating 1,400 a day, so that's a really big jump up.
Suggestions?0 -
The way to figure out your maintenance, and then bulking, calories is by eating more, tracking your food and weight, and observing whether or not you are gaining and how fast. Every calculator is just an estimate.
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.0 -
The way to figure out your maintenance, and then bulking, calories is by eating more, tracking your food and weight, and observing whether or not you are gaining and how fast. Every calculator is just an estimate.
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of trial and error will go into this! According to MFP, my TDEE is 1,720. So averaging out with what my Fitbit told me the past two days, I feel it's safe to say I'm between 1700 and 1800 somewhere. That being said, I just set my food goals to the following:
Calories Consumed/Day 1,900 cal/day
Carbs/Day 214.0 g (45%)
Fat/Day 42.0 g (20%)
Protein/Day 166.0 g (35%)
This is just under what MFP recommended for gaining +0.5 pounds a week (~1970 calories) so I figure this will give me a little wiggle room. I tend to weigh myself every day/couple of days, (also BF%, Water Weight, and BMI) just to get an idea of what my body's doing and how it's responding... As you said, every calculator is just an estimate, so I'll just have to be patient and do my own math here!0 -
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
You will probably feel better working out though if most of the extra calories come from nutritionally dense foods. The 100 calories from an apple for example will fuel your training better than 100 calories from ice cream.
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Packerjohn wrote: »
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
You will probably feel better working out though if most of the extra calories come from nutritionally dense foods. The 100 calories from an apple for example will fuel your training better than 100 calories from ice cream.
Yeah... I mean, I don't mind treating myself now and then, but eating "garbage" foods all the time won't get me very far-- not a big fan of the "if it fits, eat it" mentality...0 -
They're all very close numbers, go with around 2,000 or so and keep track of macros, weight, etc. Don't forget that heavy load weightlifting often causes muscles to retain water, hence the scale will bounce around, even within a 24-hr period or longer. Follow your trends versus a single number.0
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@CarlydogsMom Okay, that makes a lot more sense then... I kind of got the feeling that he was talking a bit more extreme than I was considering (the lack of numbers/figures aimed towards women made it harder to put into terms for me and my body)
I guess what I'm most struggling to find is my exact numbers to figure out just exactly WHAT that surplus of 150 - 200 is... A coworker let me borrow his Fitbit Flex, which logged me at 1,849 calories burned yesterday. (working 10 hours, no workout)
I did calculations on my BMR (calories burned at rest) and per the site's "enter and calcuate" I got 1436 kcal. When I did the math myself, I got 1410.36
Then came TDEE. With "light exercise" I got 1939.2
"Moderate Exercise" yielded a TDEE of 2186.1
Daily Energy Intake Recommendations for Strength Training gave me 1,809.
So I guess what's most overwhelming me at this point is all these numbers... I just want to make sure that I'm doing this all right...
From what I'm gathering, I'm burning about 1,800 calories (not including exercise) so, I would want to be eating (surplus: 150 - 200) between 1,950 and 2,000 calories a day? And then I would also want to eat back my exercise calories on days when I do that?!
I'm not even worried about weight gain or getting "fat" or whatever at this point. I'm just not sure how the hell to fit that much food into my body! (without risking "empty" calories) I'm used to eating 1,400 a day, so that's a really big jump up.
Suggestions?
Well since you've started this thread I think your profile indicated you're 24 YO female. Your profile is private today so it will make a few things harder to help you with but:
TDEE includes NEAT and EAT
MFP uses NEAT and you add EAT(exercise calories)
So your friend gave you a fitbit which you used and it measured NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis)
You are combining and confusing two different ways of measuring your caloric need.
Also, if 'you risk empty calories' is bothering you then stop using these terms to define your intake. Write out a few meals which assist in hitting your MACROS, then write in a few random foods or 'empty calorie' choices(not a term I'd use) and see how close you get to your goal. I think you'll find greater long term success with any goal related to weight and health if you make up your mind to enjoy food for what it is. . . fuel. Hope this helps.
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »
Well since you've started this thread I think your profile indicated you're 24 YO female. Your profile is private today so it will make a few things harder to help you with but:
TDEE includes NEAT and EAT
MFP uses NEAT and you add EAT(exercise calories)
So your friend gave you a fitbit which you used and it measured NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis)
You are combining and confusing two different ways of measuring your caloric need.
Also, if 'you risk empty calories' is bothering you then stop using these terms to define your intake. Write out a few meals which assist in hitting your MACROS, then write in a few random foods or 'empty calorie' choices(not a term I'd use) and see how close you get to your goal. I think you'll find greater long term success with any goal related to weight and health if you make up your mind to enjoy food for what it is. . . fuel. Hope this helps.
Are you sure you've got the right profile? I just double checked and my profile does is fact say I'm 23, and I made sure my privacy settings are set to "viewable by MFP members only" so I'm not sure why it would be having that issue. I keep my diary and profile open to all MFP members for this exact purpose. Is anyone else having this issue? :S
I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT (I wasn't aware of the difference, NEAT vs. TDEE) but it makes a lot more sense now. MFP guessed my NEAT (based on activity level) to be 1,720. When I wore the Fitbit, it calculated my NEAT to be 1,849. (didn't exercise that day) The average of these two numbers is just under 1800, so (until I get more data to work off of) I'm guessing my NEAT to be 1800.
With that being said, I realized that I need to be eating at LEAST 1800 (just for maintenance of NEAT alone) which makes it obvious why I've plateaued while eating 1400 (but also why I saw such improvement going from 1200 to 1400 intake) So, as per @CarlydogsMom and others suggested, I'll set my calorie intake to 1950 - 2000, making sure to eat back any calories that I burn during exercise.CarlydogsMom wrote: »They're all very close numbers, go with around 2,000 or so and keep track of macros, weight, etc. Don't forget that heavy load weightlifting often causes muscles to retain water, hence the scale will bounce around, even within a 24-hr period or longer. Follow your trends versus a single number.
I currently have it at 1900, but after doing the math, I think you're right that 2,000 would be better. I'd rather be on the high end and adjust as needed than not be eating enough and run out of fuel for my workouts!!
Yeah, I figure that the scale will bounce around a lot, so I try not to put as much stock into it as much as NSV. My scale calculates water weight, BF%, and BMI (how accurately, who knows) but like you said, it's all about the trends. Obviously if I see my BF% and BMI skyrocketing, that might be cause for worry, but I'm not concerned about fluctuating. Gotta ride the waves to reach the shore.
...or something like that... xD0 -
BF% and BMI won't skyrocket
they'll just start a slow enough trend going up, but also don't forget you're going to be putting on muscle (slowly, as per the norm) and a small bit of fat while you're eating over maintenance--so yes, those numbers may rise slightly, but that's to be expected. Just enjoy the lifting, enjoy getting stronger, enjoy seeing more plates put on that bar!
Oh, start NOW, take pictures and measurements! Front, sideways, flexed arms, unflexed arms, etc etc.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
You will probably feel better working out though if most of the extra calories come from nutritionally dense foods. The 100 calories from an apple for example will fuel your training better than 100 calories from ice cream.
rubbish. 205 calories of snickers is significantly superior to 250 calories of say broccoli as a preworkout.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT...
MFP is neither NEAT nor TDEE - it's whichever way the user wants to use it.
Set your activity level to include your exercise habits, don't log exercise, and you're TDEE. Or set your activity level to not include your exercise habits, log your exercise, and you're NEAT.
Or do a hybrid where some but not all exercise is reflected in your activity level, and only log "excess" exercise, and you're doing a hybrid NEAT/TDEE.
It's all up to you...
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You can gain strength up to a point as well as definition but will not actually gain mass on a deficit.0
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foursirius wrote: »You can gain strength up to a point on a deficit but will not actually gain mass.
Not necessarily true.0 -
CarlydogsMom wrote: »BF% and BMI won't skyrocket they'll just start a slow enough trend going up, but also don't forget you're going to be putting on muscle (slowly, as per the norm) and a small bit of fat while you're eating over maintenance--so yes, those numbers may rise slightly, but that's to be expected. Just enjoy the lifting, enjoy getting stronger, enjoy seeing more plates put on that bar!
Oh, start NOW, take pictures and measurements! Front, sideways, flexed arms, unflexed arms, etc etc.
Done and done. I took these last night after a grueling 90 minute hot yoga session (burned damned near 800 calories, was NOT expecting that and it was far too late to try and eat it all back) so pardon the grossness that is my sweaty hair/flesh
These are both unflexed; I tried taking flexed but it was difficult the way I was taking them. I'll have to have someone else take them, or use a standalone camera. But it's a good starting point!
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT...
MFP is neither NEAT nor TDEE - it's whichever way the user wants to use it.
Set your activity level to include your exercise habits, don't log exercise, and you're TDEE. Or set your activity level to not include your exercise habits, log your exercise, and you're NEAT.
Or do a hybrid where some but not all exercise is reflected in your activity level, and only log "excess" exercise, and you're doing a hybrid NEAT/TDEE.
It's all up to you...
I personally use it as a rough estimate for NEAT, and then cross reference what my fitbit claims my NEAT was for the day, and then just manually add in my workout calories (Fitbit Flex said I burned 210 calories last night during yoga, while my Polar heart rate montior said I burned 782) so it's a guessing game, but I'll learn my body and in time I'll get this whole thing figured out!0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT...
MFP is neither NEAT nor TDEE - it's whichever way the user wants to use it.
Set your activity level to include your exercise habits, don't log exercise, and you're TDEE. Or set your activity level to not include your exercise habits, log your exercise, and you're NEAT.
Or do a hybrid where some but not all exercise is reflected in your activity level, and only log "excess" exercise, and you're doing a hybrid NEAT/TDEE.
It's all up to you...
I personally use it as a rough estimate for NEAT, and then cross reference what my fitbit claims my NEAT was for the day, and then just manually add in my workout calories (Fitbit Flex said I burned 210 calories last night during yoga, while my Polar heart rate montior said I burned 782) so it's a guessing game, but I'll learn my body and in time I'll get this whole thing figured out!
You can't use a Polar to gauge calorie burns from activities like weight lifting, yoga, etc. The algorithms they use are based on how steady state cardio activities affect heart rate. Activities that use different energy systems produce false readings.
Azdak has a good write up if you're interested:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-176980 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT...
MFP is neither NEAT nor TDEE - it's whichever way the user wants to use it.
Set your activity level to include your exercise habits, don't log exercise, and you're TDEE. Or set your activity level to not include your exercise habits, log your exercise, and you're NEAT.
Or do a hybrid where some but not all exercise is reflected in your activity level, and only log "excess" exercise, and you're doing a hybrid NEAT/TDEE.
It's all up to you...
I personally use it as a rough estimate for NEAT, and then cross reference what my fitbit claims my NEAT was for the day, and then just manually add in my workout calories (Fitbit Flex said I burned 210 calories last night during yoga, while my Polar heart rate montior said I burned 782) so it's a guessing game, but I'll learn my body and in time I'll get this whole thing figured out!
You can't use a Polar to gauge calorie burns from activities like weight lifting, yoga, etc. The algorithms they use are based on how steady state cardio activities affect heart rate. Activities that use different energy systems produce false readings.
Azdak has a good write up if you're interested:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
Every calorie burn is an estimate (even with a heart rate monitor). It has several assumptions and while you might be meeting most of them with a standard run, you’re probably not meeting all of them. So, there is an error rate. Plug it in and go. If, after a few weeks, you aren’t seeing the results you want, tweak the estimates and charge on.0 -
UPDATE (kind of): So I've been doing this 2,000 calorie deal for about a week now. As you see above, I had taken photos on the 30th (Monday) with updated scale "measurements". This morning, purely out of curiosity, I hopped on the scale and was kind of shocked at the changes already.
Monday:
132.7 pounds
23% Bodyfat
56.3% H20
21.3 BMI
Today:
137.1
23.6% Bodyfat
55.9% H20
22BMI
INB4: PATIENCE, KID. TAKES TIME. YOU'LL NOTICE FLUCTUATION. DON'T FREAK OUT.
Yes, yes, yes-- I understand. Just reiterating to those who have reached out to me or mentioned in the thread that they have similar goals, to EXPECT THIS. I wasn't fluctuating more than +2/-2 pounds around my 132 weight (I weighed myself every other day to make note of any trends) so when, not even a *week* after starting this minimal surplus deal (and I haven't even been able to eat my full 2,000 calories yet) I'm already ballooning, as far as the scale is concerned. Oddly enough, however, I don't *look* any different- If anything, my tummy looks a little flatter, and I feel... lighter? Fancy that, huh?
I'm still not happy about the number, but so long as it doesn't become a steady, upward trend, then we should be just fine. I'm excited to get closer to my goals and start seeing some NSV, so I can stop stressing about how this will all play out...0 -
This is why I would never own a scale that tells me anything more than my body weight. It would drive me insane. Eat right, lift heavy, repeat, you will reap the benefits.0
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Thanks for the update @NekoneMeowMixx!!!
I've been following your post trying to wrap my head around macros/cals for information on how to tailor the numbers to my goals.0 -
Heh, yeah. I try to remind myself that this is all strictly calculations, and the accuracy of such is probably WAY, way off. Unfortunately, the whole "follow the overall trend" rule is still nagging at me.
Another thing I'm struggling with (and I just made a thread under food and nutrition, actually) is managing to eat the total 2,000 daily calories. I mean, I'm a fat kid at heart, so when I heard it would help me, I was like, "hell yeah"
^Literally this is me.
But in actual practice, I am going insane. I just went grocery shopping yesterday evening and bought a ton of healthy food. (Lots of veggies, especially). I logged everything that I have to eat for the day until I get home at 6, and have dinner. AND I STILL HAVE OVER 900 CALORIES LEFT FOR THE DAY. I'm also nowhere close to reaching my macros. I don't know what to do, and it's becoming increasingly frustrating. I eat when I'm hungry, and so far I just haven't been able to push that 2,000 calorie mark without eating Jet's Pizza, or having a donut, or something grossly unhealthy that I (and my stomach) hate me for later.
I don't know if it's just mind over matter, and I need to start eating double what I am (not a fan of the idea) or if I just need some help finding more "dense" foods. Either way-- going crazy!! I don't want all this sweet, sweet gym time going to waste! >:c
@giusa -- You're welcome! Hopefully you're not/won't encounter(ing) these struggles, because oh my wow, are they REAL. v.v0 -
Hey, I just left a comment on your home page, but wanted to add more since there's more details here. It IS hard, isn't it? My hardest challenge is meeting my protein macro (over or about 100 g.). I googled "highest protein per calorie foods" and got some good ideas. Also, good things to add may be a protein powder shake made with whole milk (I'll add plain whole-fat greek yogurt/milk/protein powder and a bit of water to thin it out). Chocolate milk after your workout is a good recovery drink, too. Lift, eat right, and have fun!0
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What macros are you missing on? My protein sources are made up with chicken, pork, lean ground turkey, greek yogurt, cottage cheese, and if I am still short I will supplement with Whey Protein Powder.
Fats are usually made up with avocado, peanut butter, coconut oil, low calorie low sodium cheese like swiss, whole milk, butter, etc.
Carbs are usually really easy to fill in and I typically go over on my carbs.0 -
@CarlydogsMom It feels impossible some days, I swear, haha. And unfortunately whole milk and I don't really get along. I was using soy and almond milk (switched to the latter after hearing about soy in excess being bad for women, and also because it typically had more protein) but I just made the switch to fat free milk, and I'm hoping my body can handle that okay, because I do love me some chocolate milk, and it seems a damned shame to miss out on the luxury of added protein just because my body doesn't want me to drink milk...
@DvIDwnInGA (It won't let me tag you for some reason >.>) Protein is my biggest struggle, honestly. I eat cottage cheese and greek yogurt almost every day when I work (I bought a bento style lunch box and a cup of each fits perfectly in) I also make sure I have some source of protein (today it's healthy ones turkey lunchmeat-- higher protein, with a fraction of the sodium) not sure what's for dinner, but I'm thinking probably pork steaks. (even that won't get me close to what I need though, I don't think)
I usually have no issue going over carbs (though I try not to) I'm noticing that the sodium content on a cup of cottage cheese (0% milkfat) is absurd (like 600mg or something) which may not seem like much but is pin-pointed as the culprit when I haven't even logged my full days' food and I'm already balls deep over my sodium intake, but my calories and protein is like, "wahhh wahhhh...."
Question: If I do by some miraculous miracle of wowness, manage to hit (consistently) all of my GOOD macros, what's the allowance on calories? I mean, I presume a surplus is still needed in order to gain muscle. But I would think that less calories higher protein/fat/carbs is better than high calories with virtually no nutritional significance...0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Heh, yeah. I try to remind myself that this is all strictly calculations, and the accuracy of such is probably WAY, way off. Unfortunately, the whole "follow the overall trend" rule is still nagging at me.
Another thing I'm struggling with (and I just made a thread under food and nutrition, actually) is managing to eat the total 2,000 daily calories. I mean, I'm a fat kid at heart, so when I heard it would help me, I was like, "hell yeah"
^Literally this is me.
But in actual practice, I am going insane. I just went grocery shopping yesterday evening and bought a ton of healthy food. (Lots of veggies, especially). I logged everything that I have to eat for the day until I get home at 6, and have dinner. AND I STILL HAVE OVER 900 CALORIES LEFT FOR THE DAY. I'm also nowhere close to reaching my macros. I don't know what to do, and it's becoming increasingly frustrating. I eat when I'm hungry, and so far I just haven't been able to push that 2,000 calorie mark without eating Jet's Pizza, or having a donut, or something grossly unhealthy that I (and my stomach) hate me for later.
I don't know if it's just mind over matter, and I need to start eating double what I am (not a fan of the idea) or if I just need some help finding more "dense" foods. Either way-- going crazy!! I don't want all this sweet, sweet gym time going to waste! >:c
@giusa -- You're welcome! Hopefully you're not/won't encounter(ing) these struggles, because oh my wow, are they REAL. v.v
you need more calorie dense foods aka bagels, steak, ice cream, pasta, rice, etc...
this is problem with trying to "eat clean" when increasing calories, it becomes impossible to hit the higher calorie mark on vegetables and fish.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Question: If I do by some miraculous miracle of wowness, manage to hit (consistently) all of my GOOD macros, what's the allowance on calories? I mean, I presume a surplus is still needed in order to gain muscle. But I would think that less calories higher protein/fat/carbs is better than high calories with virtually no nutritional significance...
Depends if you have met your minimums for the day or not0 -
@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.0 -
First thing you really need to do is stop thinking carbs are bad. Yes you eat them, but you seem to have it in your head that they are a negative thing.0
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If protein is your biggest struggle, grab some protein powder. Most of your decent protein powders will come in at 120 to 130 calories per scoop and will provide 24 to 25 grams of protein. Mix it in with some plain greek yogurt. Or put it in a shaker and drink with some milk.
I also like to eat pre cooked chicken as a snack. I will grab a pack of pre cooked chicken from Costco and throw some mustard and red pepper flake on it and nuke it for a snack. I like to do this on my cardio days as it is more satisfying than drinking my extra protein. 220 cals for 44 grams of protein.
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