Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
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Thank you @gia07, @MzShelleRenea, @lisag0109; @labyars; @rybo; and @scaryg53. Appreciate the feedback. I still am a newbie on weight training and hesitate to weigh (geezus) in on this topic in these forums when there are so many others that have worked through all this information over years and years. It was a little mind-blowing when I first started and did some research. Had to toss what I thought I knew was "right" right out the window (cardio forever, and maybe mess around with some of those weight machines if I feel like it! And, what do you mean I have to eat over maintenance, can't my muscles just use my excess fat for energy to grow? HUH????).
@NekoneMeowMixx, you've gotten some good information. I found the introduction in the book "Practical Programming for Strength Training" (Rippetoe et. al; companion to Starting Strength) a good, very short encapsulation of "exercise" versus "training" (you can download the free sample of that e-book to get that intro on Amazon without buying the whole thing, but it's a good book regardless). Take a look especially at how he suggests capitalizing on lifting progressively heavier loads for new lifters. I'm going to PM you with a bit more details.
Don't worry about the concept of "bulking." It's just a word meaning building up muscle. You're not going to actually look bulky. Once again, looking bulky is something that happens over a long period of time with intense training. Not gonna happen unless you want it to.
Just to lighten things up a bit:
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@Asher_Ethan What kind of exercise are you doing? How long for, and how often? A good inch off your waist and hips in approx a month is a pretty good NSV in my opinion! I've lost *maybe* half an inch in the near 70 days of religious logging, though I lost 9 pounds... That's why I decided to start focusing on muscle, since my current plan wasn't getting me anywhere in regards to my goals (inches wise, at least)
@NekoneMeowMixx 3 hours a week of weight training and usually 4 hours a week of cardio. Recently It's been 6 hours a week of cardio because I have a half marathon next month that I'm trying to get ready for.0 -
@CarlydogsMom I'm looking forward to it! And the e-card post made me laugh, literally out loud... xD0
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I wish I had more information on the item below the cardboard Arnold notice....what "rectum..." problem did that kitten have???0
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Never recommended that for clients. Just focused on one or the other. I also tried out that combo personally just to see. I cut calories and started lifting heavy again. At first I did lose weight, but plateaued quickly as my body essentially recomp'd. I held around 200 pounds but start to get more definition. So measurements would change, but not weight.0
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UPDATE:
Went to the gym tonight (with the boyfriend, so I would have that extra motivation and someone to push me) and I wound up going from these weights:
Squat: 70lb
Bench: 40lb
Barbell Row: 50lb
to
Squat: 100lb
Bench: 45lb
Dumbbell Row: 25lb
HUGE improvement on my squats (I knew I wasn't pushing myself hard enough!) Managed to move up 5 pounds on my bench presses, as suggested by SL5x5, and switched to Dumbbbell row from Barbell row, since doing the barbell row was really messing up my back, and I wasn't comfortable with the form...
Feeling super confident about this bulking now... thanks again for all the advice!0 -
Good for you, nice on the squats!0
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »UPDATE:
Went to the gym tonight (with the boyfriend, so I would have that extra motivation and someone to push me) and I wound up going from these weights:
Squat: 70lb
Bench: 40lb
Barbell Row: 50lb
to
Squat: 100lb
Bench: 45lb
Dumbbell Row: 25lb
HUGE improvement on my squats (I knew I wasn't pushing myself hard enough!) Managed to move up 5 pounds on my bench presses, as suggested by SL5x5, and switched to Dumbbbell row from Barbell row, since doing the barbell row was really messing up my back, and I wasn't comfortable with the form...
Feeling super confident about this bulking now... thanks again for all the advice!
Here's an article about bulking. It discusses eating enough calories to fuel your workouts but stays away from some of the higher weight gain bulking plans. Might be what you're looking for. Good luck.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking0 -
@Packerjohn Great article-- I definitely appreciate it! I don't think I was quite to the point of eating THAT many calories per day (thank goodness) but it's good to know that the whole "bulk/cut" thing is pretty defunct.DvlDwnInGA wrote: »If you want to lose weight, eat in a deficit.
To gain muscle mass you are going to need to eat in a caloric surplus, or start looking for something along the lines of an Anabolic.
The truth is, you are probably just hoping to look muscular, which you CAN do if you lift heavy stuff in a deficit. Just make sure you pay attention to your macros.
The article that @Packerjohn provided seems like what everyone was suggesting when they said bulk/cut. The truth is, I'm not looking for the body building type shape. See, under "The Illusion of Small"
Losing body fat will make you look and feel smaller and less muscular at first (...) muscle definition will look the same, but clothes will be looser and you'll feel smaller because muscles will be flat from a lack of glycogen.
THIS is what I'm after. YES, I want to be strong, but I'm looking for lean, flat muscles; I simply don't have the desire to "bulk" up or obtain a single digit (or near single digit) body fat percentage... Honestly I see myself pretty happy at 16 - 18% (based on calculations and reference photos I've seen)
Because I understand that "16 - 18% body fat" means a lot of different things depending on many different factors, I've included a reference photo for what I'm basing my 16 - 18% on...
Soooo, given this... What do? I'm thinking of putting my calories to about 1600 (maintenance level, according to some cross-referencing/research) and going from there?
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I think you're confused.
Single digit is lean for guys. For girls 16-18% is lean.
I'm not sure bulking/cutting is "defunct". It's a tool that you can use and will be extremely effective if you use it properly. It's the quickest way to do things.
Recomp can also produce good results if you have the mental fortitude, iron discipline and patience it requires.
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Agree with @jimmmer. That article was comparing a really intense level of bulking (like 1500-2000 calories over daily maintenance, if I remember right as I skimmed it several days ago), versus what both I and others were suggesting here for you. Call that Bulking with a capital B. The writer even said it's preferable to do what many of us here recommended for you multiple times in this thread: eating in a much lower excess of calories, i.e. 150-200, in order to...again...allow your muscles to grow and to make your weight lifting actually effective in order to meet YOUR stated goals.
Staying at maintenance, you'll probably end up stronger, but you won't see that body re-comp that you want unless you're willing to be really patient, really strict about macro intake, and willing to focus on it for a very long time. Or take the plunge (again, really, why the obsession with staying at maintenance) and just eat in a slight excess for a few months and see what happens.0 -
@CarlydogsMom Okay, that makes a lot more sense then... I kind of got the feeling that he was talking a bit more extreme than I was considering (the lack of numbers/figures aimed towards women made it harder to put into terms for me and my body)
I guess what I'm most struggling to find is my exact numbers to figure out just exactly WHAT that surplus of 150 - 200 is... A coworker let me borrow his Fitbit Flex, which logged me at 1,849 calories burned yesterday. (working 10 hours, no workout)
I did calculations on my BMR (calories burned at rest) and per the site's "enter and calcuate" I got 1436 kcal. When I did the math myself, I got 1410.36
Then came TDEE. With "light exercise" I got 1939.2
"Moderate Exercise" yielded a TDEE of 2186.1
Daily Energy Intake Recommendations for Strength Training gave me 1,809.
So I guess what's most overwhelming me at this point is all these numbers... I just want to make sure that I'm doing this all right...
From what I'm gathering, I'm burning about 1,800 calories (not including exercise) so, I would want to be eating (surplus: 150 - 200) between 1,950 and 2,000 calories a day? And then I would also want to eat back my exercise calories on days when I do that?!
I'm not even worried about weight gain or getting "fat" or whatever at this point. I'm just not sure how the hell to fit that much food into my body! (without risking "empty" calories) I'm used to eating 1,400 a day, so that's a really big jump up.
Suggestions?0 -
The way to figure out your maintenance, and then bulking, calories is by eating more, tracking your food and weight, and observing whether or not you are gaining and how fast. Every calculator is just an estimate.
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.0 -
The way to figure out your maintenance, and then bulking, calories is by eating more, tracking your food and weight, and observing whether or not you are gaining and how fast. Every calculator is just an estimate.
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of trial and error will go into this! According to MFP, my TDEE is 1,720. So averaging out with what my Fitbit told me the past two days, I feel it's safe to say I'm between 1700 and 1800 somewhere. That being said, I just set my food goals to the following:
Calories Consumed/Day 1,900 cal/day
Carbs/Day 214.0 g (45%)
Fat/Day 42.0 g (20%)
Protein/Day 166.0 g (35%)
This is just under what MFP recommended for gaining +0.5 pounds a week (~1970 calories) so I figure this will give me a little wiggle room. I tend to weigh myself every day/couple of days, (also BF%, Water Weight, and BMI) just to get an idea of what my body's doing and how it's responding... As you said, every calculator is just an estimate, so I'll just have to be patient and do my own math here!0 -
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
You will probably feel better working out though if most of the extra calories come from nutritionally dense foods. The 100 calories from an apple for example will fuel your training better than 100 calories from ice cream.
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Packerjohn wrote: »
Don't worry about empty calories. You don't have to eat all chicken and broccoli. You can eat ice cream, etc.
You will probably feel better working out though if most of the extra calories come from nutritionally dense foods. The 100 calories from an apple for example will fuel your training better than 100 calories from ice cream.
Yeah... I mean, I don't mind treating myself now and then, but eating "garbage" foods all the time won't get me very far-- not a big fan of the "if it fits, eat it" mentality...0 -
They're all very close numbers, go with around 2,000 or so and keep track of macros, weight, etc. Don't forget that heavy load weightlifting often causes muscles to retain water, hence the scale will bounce around, even within a 24-hr period or longer. Follow your trends versus a single number.0
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@CarlydogsMom Okay, that makes a lot more sense then... I kind of got the feeling that he was talking a bit more extreme than I was considering (the lack of numbers/figures aimed towards women made it harder to put into terms for me and my body)
I guess what I'm most struggling to find is my exact numbers to figure out just exactly WHAT that surplus of 150 - 200 is... A coworker let me borrow his Fitbit Flex, which logged me at 1,849 calories burned yesterday. (working 10 hours, no workout)
I did calculations on my BMR (calories burned at rest) and per the site's "enter and calcuate" I got 1436 kcal. When I did the math myself, I got 1410.36
Then came TDEE. With "light exercise" I got 1939.2
"Moderate Exercise" yielded a TDEE of 2186.1
Daily Energy Intake Recommendations for Strength Training gave me 1,809.
So I guess what's most overwhelming me at this point is all these numbers... I just want to make sure that I'm doing this all right...
From what I'm gathering, I'm burning about 1,800 calories (not including exercise) so, I would want to be eating (surplus: 150 - 200) between 1,950 and 2,000 calories a day? And then I would also want to eat back my exercise calories on days when I do that?!
I'm not even worried about weight gain or getting "fat" or whatever at this point. I'm just not sure how the hell to fit that much food into my body! (without risking "empty" calories) I'm used to eating 1,400 a day, so that's a really big jump up.
Suggestions?
Well since you've started this thread I think your profile indicated you're 24 YO female. Your profile is private today so it will make a few things harder to help you with but:
TDEE includes NEAT and EAT
MFP uses NEAT and you add EAT(exercise calories)
So your friend gave you a fitbit which you used and it measured NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis)
You are combining and confusing two different ways of measuring your caloric need.
Also, if 'you risk empty calories' is bothering you then stop using these terms to define your intake. Write out a few meals which assist in hitting your MACROS, then write in a few random foods or 'empty calorie' choices(not a term I'd use) and see how close you get to your goal. I think you'll find greater long term success with any goal related to weight and health if you make up your mind to enjoy food for what it is. . . fuel. Hope this helps.
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »
Well since you've started this thread I think your profile indicated you're 24 YO female. Your profile is private today so it will make a few things harder to help you with but:
TDEE includes NEAT and EAT
MFP uses NEAT and you add EAT(exercise calories)
So your friend gave you a fitbit which you used and it measured NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis)
You are combining and confusing two different ways of measuring your caloric need.
Also, if 'you risk empty calories' is bothering you then stop using these terms to define your intake. Write out a few meals which assist in hitting your MACROS, then write in a few random foods or 'empty calorie' choices(not a term I'd use) and see how close you get to your goal. I think you'll find greater long term success with any goal related to weight and health if you make up your mind to enjoy food for what it is. . . fuel. Hope this helps.
Are you sure you've got the right profile? I just double checked and my profile does is fact say I'm 23, and I made sure my privacy settings are set to "viewable by MFP members only" so I'm not sure why it would be having that issue. I keep my diary and profile open to all MFP members for this exact purpose. Is anyone else having this issue? :S
I was actually informed the other day that MFP is only NEAT (I wasn't aware of the difference, NEAT vs. TDEE) but it makes a lot more sense now. MFP guessed my NEAT (based on activity level) to be 1,720. When I wore the Fitbit, it calculated my NEAT to be 1,849. (didn't exercise that day) The average of these two numbers is just under 1800, so (until I get more data to work off of) I'm guessing my NEAT to be 1800.
With that being said, I realized that I need to be eating at LEAST 1800 (just for maintenance of NEAT alone) which makes it obvious why I've plateaued while eating 1400 (but also why I saw such improvement going from 1200 to 1400 intake) So, as per @CarlydogsMom and others suggested, I'll set my calorie intake to 1950 - 2000, making sure to eat back any calories that I burn during exercise.CarlydogsMom wrote: »They're all very close numbers, go with around 2,000 or so and keep track of macros, weight, etc. Don't forget that heavy load weightlifting often causes muscles to retain water, hence the scale will bounce around, even within a 24-hr period or longer. Follow your trends versus a single number.
I currently have it at 1900, but after doing the math, I think you're right that 2,000 would be better. I'd rather be on the high end and adjust as needed than not be eating enough and run out of fuel for my workouts!!
Yeah, I figure that the scale will bounce around a lot, so I try not to put as much stock into it as much as NSV. My scale calculates water weight, BF%, and BMI (how accurately, who knows) but like you said, it's all about the trends. Obviously if I see my BF% and BMI skyrocketing, that might be cause for worry, but I'm not concerned about fluctuating. Gotta ride the waves to reach the shore.
...or something like that... xD0 -
BF% and BMI won't skyrocket
they'll just start a slow enough trend going up, but also don't forget you're going to be putting on muscle (slowly, as per the norm) and a small bit of fat while you're eating over maintenance--so yes, those numbers may rise slightly, but that's to be expected. Just enjoy the lifting, enjoy getting stronger, enjoy seeing more plates put on that bar!
Oh, start NOW, take pictures and measurements! Front, sideways, flexed arms, unflexed arms, etc etc.0
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