Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.
Well, you will gain more optimally if you are in a caloric surplus. As far as micronutrients are concerned, you will not receive "extra credit" once your needs have been met.
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LolBroScience wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.
Well, you will gain more optimally if you are in a caloric surplus. As far as micronutrients are concerned, you will not receive "extra credit" once your needs have been met.
I totally understand that... "Too much of a good thing" doesn't really make for a better thing, haha. I have another post running, specifically about not being able to get my calorie intake, and was told quote: "If you're bulking, nutritionally dense is of less importance than getting calories in."
Please explain this because that just does not make sense in my eyes. Perhaps (as I originally argued) I'm not looking to bulk. To be clear, I don't want to gain excessive fat with my muscle build (muscle = fat gain. Period. No way around it. Yes, I get it) but I want to have a REASONABLE, and controlled gain. The idea of shoving my face full of pizza day in and day out because it's more about calories, and macros or whatever, to me, is bullsh*t.
Maybe a recomp is more along the lines of what I'm looking for? I understand it takes longer, but I mean, it's not impossible...0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!
Nobody said you can't, but it is extremely slow, the deficit can't be too big and takes painstaking effort, especially for someone who's been training for awhile where noob gains won't be there to lean on.
Also, in this case, you're a dude and OP is a female. It is much easier for you to put on muscle in a deficit than it will be for the OP, because....you know, testosterone and stuff.
And, you don't need to make sure you're "eating clean", FWIW.
Heh, thank you. I think that's one thing that people really fail to realize, is just how different men and women's bodies work. I mean, sure, one day I'll be able to out-bench half the dudes at the gym (lol, yeah right) but our bodies are far better suited for sad movie marathons and ice cream binges than gaining muscle (sorry, not sorry) xP
@NekoneMeowMixx , Do not sell yourself short. If you set your mind to it, you could out bench half the dudes at the gym. I follow a lot of people on Instagram and Facebook that lift. There are two woman on there that constantly amaze me. Leanna Carr and Kim Valentine. Kim just set a world record for the squat in her weight class. She weighs 114lbs and did a squat of 402lbs, benched 192 lbs, and deadlifted 374. When you look at her it is hard fathoming someone like her doing such a thing. Leanna, isn't quite in Kim's strength range, but again, a smaller female but out lifts a lot of men I know. So, woman can be strong and still retain their girlish figure.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@CarlydogsMom Okay, that makes a lot more sense then... I kind of got the feeling that he was talking a bit more extreme than I was considering (the lack of numbers/figures aimed towards women made it harder to put into terms for me and my body)
I guess what I'm most struggling to find is my exact numbers to figure out just exactly WHAT that surplus of 150 - 200 is... A coworker let me borrow his Fitbit Flex, which logged me at 1,849 calories burned yesterday. (working 10 hours, no workout)
I did calculations on my BMR (calories burned at rest) and per the site's "enter and calcuate" I got 1436 kcal. When I did the math myself, I got 1410.36
Then came TDEE. With "light exercise" I got 1939.2
"Moderate Exercise" yielded a TDEE of 2186.1
Daily Energy Intake Recommendations for Strength Training gave me 1,809.
So I guess what's most overwhelming me at this point is all these numbers... I just want to make sure that I'm doing this all right...
From what I'm gathering, I'm burning about 1,800 calories (not including exercise) so, I would want to be eating (surplus: 150 - 200) between 1,950 and 2,000 calories a day? And then I would also want to eat back my exercise calories on days when I do that?!
I'm not even worried about weight gain or getting "fat" or whatever at this point. I'm just not sure how the hell to fit that much food into my body! (without risking "empty" calories) I'm used to eating 1,400 a day, so that's a really big jump up.
Suggestions?
yes to the bold and ital sec. . . .
No doubt it is frustrating. Someone may have already provided some guidance. . . .in the event they did not. . . . get rid of the flex fitbit number. Calculate your NEAT(the MFP way) add your exercise calories each day. If I'm trying to reduce calories I do not eat back all my exercise calories if I want to gain weight I eat them all back and add 100-150 calories(why? exactly) for a slight surplus. Done. If you find at the end of a day you need more calories eat something, anything to fill it. Whether you have foods by categories or not if it is pizza, spaghetti, broccoli, turnips, just eat more of them. Make sense? Boy I hope so. Oh, and the muscle part. Yes lift heavier over time or progressive load to add muscle. Will you add fat? Yes. And?!? Who cares. Trying to be exact with the ration will be incredibly frustrating. Slight cal increase and good luck.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.
if you are bulking then carbs + excess calories are king. After you fill in your protein and fat minimums the rest should be coming from carbs, or a majority of the rest.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.
Well, you will gain more optimally if you are in a caloric surplus. As far as micronutrients are concerned, you will not receive "extra credit" once your needs have been met.
I totally understand that... "Too much of a good thing" doesn't really make for a better thing, haha. I have another post running, specifically about not being able to get my calorie intake, and was told quote: "If you're bulking, nutritionally dense is of less importance than getting calories in."
Please explain this because that just does not make sense in my eyes. Perhaps (as I originally argued) I'm not looking to bulk. To be clear, I don't want to gain excessive fat with my muscle build (muscle = fat gain. Period. No way around it. Yes, I get it) but I want to have a REASONABLE, and controlled gain. The idea of shoving my face full of pizza day in and day out because it's more about calories, and macros or whatever, to me, is bullsh*t.
Maybe a recomp is more along the lines of what I'm looking for? I understand it takes longer, but I mean, it's not impossible...
yea, no one is arguing that.
What we are saying is that you should be hitting your macro and micro targets for the day and then filling in with what you want.
This means that you should eat nutritionally dense foods like vegetables, fish, rice, whole grains, etc; but that you can also eat calorie dense foods like pizza, full fat cottage cheese and yogurt, ice cream, etc.
I find it amusing that you are having all these problems trying to bulk, and people - who have ran successful bulk/cut cycles - are giving you great advice and you are just through it out as BS...
If you know so much and are doing so great then keep doing what you are doing and report back in a few month with your progress. Sorry, but this is getting tiresome.
When I wanted to do my bulk, I came into this forum, read the stickies, posted a thread, and followed the advice given and I gained ten pounds in four months. I did not question all the people that were giving me advice, because they had already accomplished what I wanted to do.
This is the equivalent of going to driving school and questioning the instructor as to how they are teaching you, when you have zero experience driving..
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@ndj1979 -- Mmm, bagels. Yeah, I need to do some research on more calorie dense foods. I try not to go overboard on the carbs-- I have no problem eating my daily macro intakes' worth, but I think 200g is probably a *little* excessive when I'm not eating a fraction of that number in protein...
@LolBroScience -- Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. If I can meet my minimum (at least) for all my macros, it seems like that would be more important than meeting my calorie goal. And who knows-- maybe once I figure out how to meet my macros, I'll be able to get higher up there on my calories, in turn.
Well, you will gain more optimally if you are in a caloric surplus. As far as micronutrients are concerned, you will not receive "extra credit" once your needs have been met.
I totally understand that... "Too much of a good thing" doesn't really make for a better thing, haha. I have another post running, specifically about not being able to get my calorie intake, and was told quote: "If you're bulking, nutritionally dense is of less importance than getting calories in."
Please explain this because that just does not make sense in my eyes. Perhaps (as I originally argued) I'm not looking to bulk. To be clear, I don't want to gain excessive fat with my muscle build (muscle = fat gain. Period. No way around it. Yes, I get it) but I want to have a REASONABLE, and controlled gain. The idea of shoving my face full of pizza day in and day out because it's more about calories, and macros or whatever, to me, is bullsh*t.
Maybe a recomp is more along the lines of what I'm looking for? I understand it takes longer, but I mean, it's not impossible...
You seem to have an all or nothing mindset and it's not the case. Yes, calories are king... but the majority of your intake should come from nutritionally dense foods. If you're only eating calorie laden "dirty foods" your macro breakdown will more than likely be out of wack.
Up to you whether or not you want to recomp or bulk. A reasonable and controlled gain is just a matter of controlling the caloric surplus and slowly increasing calories over time as you increase work capacity through exercise, lifting etc.0 -
apparently OP has moved on because she did not like the answers she got in here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31933102#Comment_31933102
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apparently OP has moved on because she did not like the answers she got in here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31933102#Comment_31933102
meh0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »apparently OP has moved on because she did not like the answers she got in here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31933102#Comment_31933102
meh
my sentiments exactly...0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »apparently OP has moved on because she did not like the answers she got in here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31933102#Comment_31933102
meh
my sentiments exactly...
Try any of the new Talenti yet?
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I created the other thread because I was looking for advice on how to eat more (calorie-wise) when I haven't been hungry enough to eat all the calories I need. It started to turn into a war on "what's right to eat and what isn't" and then I expressed my ignorance on the subject, and opened myself to their suggestions. I have nothing against anyone in this thread: I just wanted to start a new thread, as I felt it was more related to nutrition.
There's still good advice occuring on this thread (example: @_Terrapin_ ) and there's also a wealth of information flooding in on the other thread (which has been more active, hence why I haven't gotten a change to respond to this one yet)0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »apparently OP has moved on because she did not like the answers she got in here...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/31933102#Comment_31933102
meh
my sentiments exactly...
Try any of the new Talenti yet?
which one..??
I finally got sea salt caramel and was not impressed...heresy I know...
I want to get my hands on that cookie dough flavor, but I can't find it..0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I created the other thread because I was looking for advice on how to eat more (calorie-wise) when I haven't been hungry enough to eat all the calories I need. It started to turn into a war on "what's right to eat and what isn't" and then I expressed my ignorance on the subject, and opened myself to their suggestions. I have nothing against anyone in this thread: I just wanted to start a new thread, as I felt it was more related to nutrition.
There's still good advice occuring on this thread (example: @_Terrapin_ ) and there's also a wealth of information flooding in on the other thread (which has been more active, hence why I haven't gotten a change to respond to this one yet)
ummm please point to any trolling that LOLBro or myself did? We provided you with answers that you did not want to hear as you were caught up in the whole "clean eating" mantra. From your comments in the other thread, it appears that you have moved on from that, so that is good..
You got a lot of good advice in this thread, you just chose to ignore it.-1 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »To be clear, I don't want to gain excessive fat with my muscle build (muscle = fat gain. Period. No way around it. Yes, I get it) but I want to have a REASONABLE, and controlled gain. The idea of shoving my face full of pizza day in and day out because it's more about calories, and macros or whatever, to me, is bullsh*t.
Maybe a recomp is more along the lines of what I'm looking for? I understand it takes longer, but I mean, it's not impossible...
From everything I've been reading on here and other sites, I don't think it's possible to gain just all muscle. With muscle gain comes some fat gain. And that's where the cutting phase comes in. Right?0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »To be clear, I don't want to gain excessive fat with my muscle build (muscle = fat gain. Period. No way around it. Yes, I get it) but I want to have a REASONABLE, and controlled gain. The idea of shoving my face full of pizza day in and day out because it's more about calories, and macros or whatever, to me, is bullsh*t.
Maybe a recomp is more along the lines of what I'm looking for? I understand it takes longer, but I mean, it's not impossible...
From everything I've been reading on here and other sites, I don't think it's possible to gain just all muscle. With muscle gain comes some fat gain. And that's where the cutting phase comes in. Right?
yes.
Most assume a 1:1 ratio of fat to muscle gain. So ten pound gain = five pounds of fat and five pounds of muscle.
You can try to minimize this by doing a 'slow bulk" where you shoot for .5 pound per week gain over four to six months...0 -
After that initial water weight gain (which may subside) it will be harder than you think to put on weight, especially if you try hard to eat "clean." I started reverse dieting since 2/22. I've averaged 2500 calories for around 3 weeks and I'm up less than a pound overall. I'm older and have PCOS, which you'd think would require lower calories but nope, not needed. There's no way I could eat completely "clean" and hit that number. So I hit my macros and then eat whatever.0
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Going by BMI, 115 to 150 is a healthy weight for your height.NekoneMeowMixx wrote:I'm a 23 year old woman, 5 foot 6" tall, with the current specs:
131.2 pounds
22.1% body fat
21 BMI
http://www.shapeup.org/bmi/bmi6.pdf
Here's a body fat calculator
http://fitness.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Body-Fat-Navy
It says that athletic is 14-20%, fit is 21-24%, and 25-31% is acceptable.
So you're fine by both those measurements.
.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/I want to get toned and lean, so I'm not sure what the best way to go about that is.
If you want to build muscle & burn fat, eat at maintenance or a slight surplus and increase your protein percentage while continuing to lift weights.
It's very unlikely you'd gain any muscle while losing weight. The best that can usually be hoped for is to maintain what you had.
(That calculator says I've gained (IIRC) 4 lb of muscle while losing over 80 lb of fat. I think it's measurement error, but I'm happy to know that at least I haven't lost much, if any, muscle.)
.
[qutoe]my current "daily goals" are as follows:
Calorie Limit: 1,400
Carbs: 122.75g
Fat:62.0 g
Protein: 87.75g[/quote]
This calculator from the Baylor College of Medicine says that if you're _inactive_ you'd need just over 1600 cal/day.
https://www.bcm.edu/cnrc-apps/healthyeatingcalculator/eatingCal.html
It will also tell you how many servings of the food groups you should be eating.
Here's a table which explains the healthy macro ranges:
http://www.iom.edu/Global/News Announcements/~/media/C5CD2DD7840544979A549EC47E56A02B.ashx
page 1, carbs, 45 - 65% of calories (4 cal per gram)
page 2, fat, 20 - 35% of calories (9 cal per gram)
page 4, protein, 10 - 35% of calories (4 cal per gram)
So for 1600 cal and high protein, you'd have:
carbs 45% = 720 cal, 180g
fat 20% = 320 cal, 36g
protein 35% = 560 cal, 140g
If your activity level continues to be higher, you could get 300-600 cal more.0 -
@tzarba To my knowledge, you will gain about the same of each, but you're absolutely going to put on some fat if you want to gain muscle. If you start seeing a trend of say 5:1 fat/muscle pounds, THEN you have something to be worried about...
This is what I had to remind myself of when I stepped on the scale this morning and saw I'd jumped up 5 pounds. As @jemhh said, it's probably all water weight (which makes me hate my scale's inaccuracies even more, as it said I'd "lost" water weight...) but I look just as small, my pants still fit the same, and I don't feel bloated. If anything my muscles are sore (which is a good sign, of course) but in no way do I feel "fatter".
And yeah, I'll just have to wait and see how things go. I'm guessing I'll put on anywhere between 10 and 15 pounds within the next few months if I do things right (I think this is a safe assumption?) and I'm sure by then I would start noticing the muscle gains/gained strength. At which time I could start cutting.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@tzarba To my knowledge, you will gain about the same of each, but you're absolutely going to put on some fat if you want to gain muscle. If you start seeing a trend of say 5:1 fat/muscle pounds, THEN you have something to be worried about...
This is what I had to remind myself of when I stepped on the scale this morning and saw I'd jumped up 5 pounds. As @jemhh said, it's probably all water weight (which makes me hate my scale's inaccuracies even more, as it said I'd "lost" water weight...) but I look just as small, my pants still fit the same, and I don't feel bloated. If anything my muscles are sore (which is a good sign, of course) but in no way do I feel "fatter".
And yeah, I'll just have to wait and see how things go. I'm guessing I'll put on anywhere between 10 and 15 pounds within the next few months if I do things right (I think this is a safe assumption?) and I'm sure by then I would start noticing the muscle gains/gained strength. At which time I could start cutting.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/0
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