Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@CarlydogsMom You are truly amazing me with your stellarness, and are truly a wealth of information!! As I'm nervous about taking any big, big steps, I decided I'd meet you on the middle for the daily calorie intake, adjusted my macros, and we'll see where I am in a month or so's time:
Net Calories Consumed: 1,500 cal/day
Carbs/Day: 131g
Fat/Day: 67g
Protein/Day: 94g (as I work out, my macros all go up, so I felt this was a good start, and I'll just shoot to go a little over each day)
Daily Calorie Deficit 210 calories
I feel like this is definitely a step in the right direction. Little steps lead to big changes!
And you are crazy motivation material! I was very sad to find the other day that the Smith machine at Planet Fitness has a 20lb bar, and not 45lb bar as a normal olympic bench would have. (I thought it felt light...) So that was super bumming, but as it stands (after doing all the recalculating/adjustments) I'm currently doing the following:
Squats: 70lbs
OH Press: 30lbs
Bench: 40lbs
My best squat is High School was like, 230 pounds (I could only do 1 rep, but still) got a long way to go, and I look forward to getting there!
What are your net calories? What I mean is how are you gauging your gross and net?
And your squat in HS is really impressive. We had a local girl just set 2 records in the 132 pound raw women's teen 14-15 division. Dead of 230 and total weight 380.
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LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Just to note, I'm not recommending the 10x3 over the 3x10... especially for a beginner. Simply pointing there isn't a HUGE amount of difference.
Would you be willing to do a split program where one arm trains at 10x3 and the other trains at 3 x 10?
My premise is, in the first, you’d see your 1 RM go up more, in the second, you’d see the muscle mass go up more.
No, I wouldn't because I don't directly train arms. I also don't see a point doing 10x3 on something such as a curl because I'm not willing to find out my 1RM on curls and calculate programming based off that. Now, if we're talking Squats and Deads - Yep, I'll bite.
I only went that route because it would facilitate doing a split test with one person. But there are plenty of studies out there that show the correlation between of strength vs mass based on repetitions.
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@_Terrapin_ I had pulled those numbers directly from MFP. 1,500 cal/day was my allocation of how many calories I could eat in order to lose the projected 1lb/week (which we've come to realize is not the best goal for me) I'm currently trying to do some more research into what would be best for me (I think eating at maintenance, at least to start, and eating back my exercise calories) would be the right route, from what I can tell so far...
When I updated my "goals" via MFP, and put "maintain my current weight" and chose 4 workouts a week at 30 minutes each (realistic, as I'll be doing 3 days of Stronglifts, and then either hot yoga and/or cycling on an off day, depending on how I feel) and got this:
Net Calories/ Day: 1,910 Calories
Carbs/Day: 239.0 g
Fat/Day: 64.0 g
Protein/Day: 96.0 g
Those macros seem a little bit ridiculously out of whack though... I mean, I'm all for carbo loading, but I think I could really sacrifice some of those carbs for protein and fat... Perhaps I'm wrong though? Suggestions??
Also, I think I'm going to stick closer to 1800 calories a day, and see how that goes for me, for starters. I have a coworker loaning me his Fitbit to see how I like it, but I think knowing EXACTLY how much I'm burning every day would really help weed out the discrepancies that are MFP's calculations/estimates.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Just to note, I'm not recommending the 10x3 over the 3x10... especially for a beginner. Simply pointing there isn't a HUGE amount of difference.
Would you be willing to do a split program where one arm trains at 10x3 and the other trains at 3 x 10?
My premise is, in the first, you’d see your 1 RM go up more, in the second, you’d see the muscle mass go up more.
No, I wouldn't because I don't directly train arms. I also don't see a point doing 10x3 on something such as a curl because I'm not willing to find out my 1RM on curls and calculate programming based off that. Now, if we're talking Squats and Deads - Yep, I'll bite.
I only went that route because it would facilitate doing a split test with one person. But there are plenty of studies out there that show the correlation between of strength vs mass based on repetitions.
Like the one posted?
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@_Terrapin_ I had pulled those numbers directly from MFP. 1,500 cal/day was my allocation of how many calories I could eat in order to lose the projected 1lb/week (which we've come to realize is not the best goal for me) I'm currently trying to do some more research into what would be best for me (I think eating at maintenance, at least to start, and eating back my exercise calories) would be the right route, from what I can tell so far...
When I updated my "goals" via MFP, and put "maintain my current weight" and chose 4 workouts a week at 30 minutes each (realistic, as I'll be doing 3 days of Stronglifts, and then either hot yoga and/or cycling on an off day, depending on how I feel) and got this:
Net Calories/ Day: 1,910 Calories
Carbs/Day: 239.0 g
Fat/Day: 64.0 g
Protein/Day: 96.0 g
Those macros seem a little bit ridiculously out of whack though... I mean, I'm all for carbo loading, but I think I could really sacrifice some of those carbs for protein and fat... Perhaps I'm wrong though? Suggestions??
Also, I think I'm going to stick closer to 1800 calories a day, and see how that goes for me, for starters. I have a coworker loaning me his Fitbit to see how I like it, but I think knowing EXACTLY how much I'm burning every day would really help weed out the discrepancies that are MFP's calculations/estimates.
You would see more of a performance boost from the carbs over a higher protein intake, especially if you're going the route of caloric surplus.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@_Terrapin_ I had pulled those numbers directly from MFP. 1,500 cal/day was my allocation of how many calories I could eat in order to lose the projected 1lb/week (which we've come to realize is not the best goal for me) I'm currently trying to do some more research into what would be best for me (I think eating at maintenance, at least to start, and eating back my exercise calories) would be the right route, from what I can tell so far...
When I updated my "goals" via MFP, and put "maintain my current weight" and chose 4 workouts a week at 30 minutes each (realistic, as I'll be doing 3 days of Stronglifts, and then either hot yoga and/or cycling on an off day, depending on how I feel) and got this:
Net Calories/ Day: 1,910 Calories
Carbs/Day: 239.0 g
Fat/Day: 64.0 g
Protein/Day: 96.0 g
Those macros seem a little bit ridiculously out of whack though... I mean, I'm all for carbo loading, but I think I could really sacrifice some of those carbs for protein and fat... Perhaps I'm wrong though? Suggestions??
Also, I think I'm going to stick closer to 1800 calories a day, and see how that goes for me, for starters. I have a coworker loaning me his Fitbit to see how I like it, but I think knowing EXACTLY how much I'm burning every day would really help weed out the discrepancies that are MFP's calculations/estimates.
The MACROS, though some may agree or disagree, can be set with the idea of making the Protein and Fats based on BW(body weight) and LBM(lean body mass). The equations are floating around out there but basically(meaning my weak minds memory) they are
Protein at 1 gram per pound of LBM and fat at is an equation that evades me right now. These 2 numbers are your 'minimum' numbers for MACROS meaning hit them each day and every day. The rest are carbs. So, while carbs can be 'high' they usually correspond with workout intensity, i.e.--if I am running more then lifting I will probably have a slighter higher carb number. Again IMO, this is the MACRO to fart around with. While I playfully say food is fuel anybody training for a certain goal will have more precise numbers then the average person on the site trying to dump 10 to 100 pounds. Then again.....so after all the numbers are adjusted you'll probably find you have a fairly balanced MACRO set which will provide for a variety of 'fuel' intake.0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@_Terrapin_ I had pulled those numbers directly from MFP. 1,500 cal/day was my allocation of how many calories I could eat in order to lose the projected 1lb/week (which we've come to realize is not the best goal for me) I'm currently trying to do some more research into what would be best for me (I think eating at maintenance, at least to start, and eating back my exercise calories) would be the right route, from what I can tell so far...
When I updated my "goals" via MFP, and put "maintain my current weight" and chose 4 workouts a week at 30 minutes each (realistic, as I'll be doing 3 days of Stronglifts, and then either hot yoga and/or cycling on an off day, depending on how I feel) and got this:
Net Calories/ Day: 1,910 Calories
Carbs/Day: 239.0 g
Fat/Day: 64.0 g
Protein/Day: 96.0 g
Those macros seem a little bit ridiculously out of whack though... I mean, I'm all for carbo loading, but I think I could really sacrifice some of those carbs for protein and fat... Perhaps I'm wrong though? Suggestions??
Also, I think I'm going to stick closer to 1800 calories a day, and see how that goes for me, for starters. I have a coworker loaning me his Fitbit to see how I like it, but I think knowing EXACTLY how much I'm burning every day would really help weed out the discrepancies that are MFP's calculations/estimates.
The MACROS, though some may agree or disagree, can be set with the idea of making the Protein and Fats based on BW(body weight) and LBM(lean body mass). The equations are floating around out there but basically(meaning my weak minds memory) they are
Protein at 1 gram per pound of LBM and fat at is an equation that evades me right now. These 2 numbers are your 'minimum' numbers for MACROS meaning hit them each day and every day. The rest are carbs. So, while carbs can be 'high' they usually correspond with workout intensity, i.e.--if I am running more then lifting I will probably have a slighter higher carb number. Again IMO, this is the MACRO to fart around with. While I playfully say food is fuel anybody training for a certain goal will have more precise numbers then the average person on the site trying to dump 10 to 100 pounds. Then again.....so after all the numbers are adjusted you'll probably find you have a fairly balanced MACRO set which will provide for a variety of 'fuel' intake.
I believe the equation you're looking for on the fats is "0.35g of fat per lb of total body weight as a minimum target" at least, per this MFP forum post in Eat, Train, Progress. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055
Given that, and a little bit of playing around, I came up with this, which I'm hoping is decent enough so I can just stop fiddling around (for now) and be comfortable with what I'm doing...
Net Calories Consumed* / Day 1,800 cal/day
Carbs / Day 180.0 g
Fat / Day 70.0 g
Protein / Day 113.0 g
This ensures I'm getting enough protein and fat, per the equations, and sets my carbs up high enough that I can afford to go hog wild and get that energy I need. I know from previous advice/research, that complex carbs are harder to break down, and thus provide energy and aren't converted into sugar as quickly? I... may be... paraphrasing... (or entirely wrong) is this still the case for bulking? I presume you would want them to break down more slowly, but hell I've been wrong more than once so far, and I appreciate the knowledge of the "been there, done that"ers... :P0 -
Yes! Clear, concise, easy to understand and very helpful! I appreciated them, too!MzShelleRenea wrote: »@carlydogsmom I know it wasn't addressed to me, but you made some great points that I appreciated.
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I'm not so sure about women, but I do know this:
As long as I don't cut my calories more than 1200 a day, with a very clean diet and high protein intake I gain muscle while I lose fat / weight. The thing is though, it is nowhere near as efficient as muscle gain from a true bulk diet, where my protein would be 1.5g per lb of bodyweight and calories +500 of my daily expense.
It could be my genetics but this is how I'm doing it.
Daily expenditure of roughly 2800 without adding cardio sessions in.
2x cardio sessions daily. Both low intensity. 25 mins each.
Once in the AM, once post lift, or on rest days post work.
Macronutrient ratio of 45% protein, 35% carbs, 20% fat (As a mesomorph this is what I need usually). 1000-1200 calorie deficit each day.
Consuming enough carbs during intense training is critical to body fuel and preventing muscle burn. Also, I try to get as close to my bodyweight in protein grams consumed.
Lifting 5x a week while incorporating the daily cardio.
All of my food is scaled by the gram for accuracy, and I consume 20-30g's of BCAA's and glutamine to help prevent catabolism and help with muscle retention.
Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week. This is measured using biometric impedence, so the numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my weekly measurements verify that I am gaining muscle in small amounts with the fat loss.
Take this with a grain of salt of course, but just my 2 cents. Maybe this can help you.0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »I'm not so sure about women, but I do know this:
As long as I don't cut my calories more than 1200 a day, with a very clean diet and high protein intake I gain muscle while I lose fat / weight. The thing is though, it is nowhere near as efficient as muscle gain from a true bulk diet, where my protein would be 1.5g per lb of bodyweight and calories +500 of my daily expense.
It could be my genetics but this is how I'm doing it.
Daily expenditure of roughly 2800 without adding cardio sessions in.
2x cardio sessions daily. Both low intensity. 25 mins each.
Once in the AM, once post lift, or on rest days post work.
Macronutrient ratio of 45% protein, 35% carbs, 20% fat (As a mesomorph this is what I need usually). 1000-1200 calorie deficit each day.
Consuming enough carbs during intense training is critical to body fuel and preventing muscle burn. Also, I try to get as close to my bodyweight in protein grams consumed.
Lifting 5x a week while incorporating the daily cardio.
All of my food is scaled by the gram for accuracy, and I consume 20-30g's of BCAA's and glutamine to help prevent catabolism and help with muscle retention.
Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week. This is measured using biometric impedence, so the numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my weekly measurements verify that I am gaining muscle in small amounts with the fat loss.
Take this with a grain of salt of course, but just my 2 cents. Maybe this can help you.
No.0 -
I think I can handle this whole eating at maintenance thing. My biggest worry is macros... I'm absolute shite when it comes to figuring out what to eat based on my macros (I usually do my food planning for work days the night before or in a haste that morning).
Is there some sort of magical internet tool that provides users with a database of foods, where I can enter "x" g of carbs and "x" g of protein, and it will tell me what foods meet (or come close) to that? Or somewhere where I can say "I NEED MORE PROTEIN BUT HOLY GOODNESS, NO MORE CARBS!" without the endless hassle that is google searching and Buzzfeed lists...
tl;dr- I went a little carb happy today, and I need to make up my protein/fat, without going crazy on calories... this is a frequent issue (with varying macros) Plz halp.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »I think I can handle this whole eating at maintenance thing. My biggest worry is macros... I'm absolute shite when it comes to figuring out what to eat based on my macros (I usually do my food planning for work days the night before or in a haste that morning).
Is there some sort of magical internet tool that provides users with a database of foods, where I can enter "x" g of carbs and "x" g of protein, and it will tell me what foods meet (or come close) to that? Or somewhere where I can say "I NEED MORE PROTEIN BUT HOLY GOODNESS, NO MORE CARBS!" without the endless hassle that is google searching and Buzzfeed lists...
tl;dr- I went a little carb happy today, and I need to make up my protein/fat, without going crazy on calories... this is a frequent issue (with varying macros) Plz halp.
Plan your meals like this:
Breakfast: Protein and carbs (eggs and banana or oatmeal)
Lunch: Protein and vegetables (chicken/turkey/beef and something)
Dinner: Protein and vegetables (chicken/turkey/beef/fish/pork and something)
Then fill in what is missing with whatever you want.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Just to note, I'm not recommending the 10x3 over the 3x10... especially for a beginner. Simply pointing there isn't a HUGE amount of difference.
Would you be willing to do a split program where one arm trains at 10x3 and the other trains at 3 x 10?
My premise is, in the first, you’d see your 1 RM go up more, in the second, you’d see the muscle mass go up more.
No, I wouldn't because I don't directly train arms. I also don't see a point doing 10x3 on something such as a curl because I'm not willing to find out my 1RM on curls and calculate programming based off that. Now, if we're talking Squats and Deads - Yep, I'll bite.
I only went that route because it would facilitate doing a split test with one person. But there are plenty of studies out there that show the correlation between of strength vs mass based on repetitions.
Like the one posted?
Fair enough. I’ve done a little work on this.
One study basically confirms the strength-endurance continuum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436270) but another seems to refute the mass portion (http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2014/10000/Effects_of_Different_Volume_Equated_Resistance.27.aspx). Two base points I’ll add. 1) These studies were done with young, trained men. 2) The study that refutes the hypertrophy training range is fairly new (2014), so I was not aware of it prior to doing this meta search.
I did find an article that looked at the value of non-linear periodization (http://www.brinkzone.com/bodybuilding/strength-training-programs-whats-best/).
My take away: A 5x5 is a great program, but some folks might enjoy mixing in some moderate rep periodization without sacrificing results. I also suspect these studies didn’t go far into concepts like time under tension, which can be addressed at different rep ranges.
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MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
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AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Just to note, I'm not recommending the 10x3 over the 3x10... especially for a beginner. Simply pointing there isn't a HUGE amount of difference.
Would you be willing to do a split program where one arm trains at 10x3 and the other trains at 3 x 10?
My premise is, in the first, you’d see your 1 RM go up more, in the second, you’d see the muscle mass go up more.
No, I wouldn't because I don't directly train arms. I also don't see a point doing 10x3 on something such as a curl because I'm not willing to find out my 1RM on curls and calculate programming based off that. Now, if we're talking Squats and Deads - Yep, I'll bite.
I only went that route because it would facilitate doing a split test with one person. But there are plenty of studies out there that show the correlation between of strength vs mass based on repetitions.
Like the one posted?
Fair enough. I’ve done a little work on this.
One study basically confirms the strength-endurance continuum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436270) but another seems to refute the mass portion (http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2014/10000/Effects_of_Different_Volume_Equated_Resistance.27.aspx). Two base points I’ll add. 1) These studies were done with young, trained men. 2) The study that refutes the hypertrophy training range is fairly new (2014), so I was not aware of it prior to doing this meta search.
I did find an article that looked at the value of non-linear periodization (http://www.brinkzone.com/bodybuilding/strength-training-programs-whats-best/).
My take away: A 5x5 is a great program, but some folks might enjoy mixing in some moderate rep periodization without sacrificing results. I also suspect these studies didn’t go far into concepts like time under tension, which can be addressed at different rep ranges.
32 untrained men in this study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12436270
This was the same study that I already posted where there was no significant differences in hypertrophy - http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2014/10000/Effects_of_Different_Volume_Equated_Resistance.27.aspx
Just trying to make sure we're on the same page...0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »You can definitely build muscle on a deficit, well I can anyway. Just make sure you're eating clean, lots of protein. Keep your weights routine regular and heavy. Good luck!
Nobody said you can't, but it is extremely slow, the deficit can't be too big and takes painstaking effort, especially for someone who's been training for awhile where noob gains won't be there to lean on.
Also, in this case, you're a dude and OP is a female. It is much easier for you to put on muscle in a deficit than it will be for the OP, because....you know, testosterone and stuff.
And, you don't need to make sure you're "eating clean", FWIW.
Heh, thank you. I think that's one thing that people really fail to realize, is just how different men and women's bodies work. I mean, sure, one day I'll be able to out-bench half the dudes at the gym (lol, yeah right) but our bodies are far better suited for sad movie marathons and ice cream binges than gaining muscle (sorry, not sorry) xP
um. maybe for you. But I spend my nights busting my glorious a22 at the gym. SO you take your self serving pedantic sorry for me female rubbish and get out. That's just so sexist and horribly degrading to our gender it isn't even funny.
I'm genuinely affronted.
secondlyYou are truly amazing me with your stellarness, and are truly a wealth of information!! As I'm nervous about taking any big, big steps, I decided I'd meet you on the middle for the daily calorie intake, adjusted my macros, and we'll see where I am in a month or so's time
this.
Even if you take a big step it takes months to accomplish the goal- so don't sell yourself short by taking a half a22 step in the right direction. Pick a goal- and commit to the path required to get you moving forward. None of this stuff happens over night- not even in a week- we are talking MONTHS of work. so a "big step" is really not that big in the grand scheme of things. Comit and move foward.0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
heh0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Not unless you are on gear, like Kris Gethin.0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Not unless you are on gear, like Kris Gethin.
It is what it is. Whether he's taking anything or not is besides the point. The fact is it's definitely possible. I'm just stating what works for me. If you disagree with what I do for my results, that's fine. No need for the my opinon can beat up your opinion's dad MFP typicalities
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