Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
Replies
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »This is OP, actually, haha. And I do believe that muscle mass is my goal, though I could be mistaken and just throwing around buzzwords like an *kitten*... Essentially, my goal is to get stronger, and have near-visible to visible muscular shape-- "toned" if you will. I want to be lean, and I don't want all those flabby bits here and there. So if that involves bulking, then cutting, and "gaining muscle mass" then yes, that is what I want.
I understand that women simply don't have the testosterone to get HUGE, but I'm also not really looking to have a bodybuilder's form-- just get lean, tone, and strong.
Hope that makes sense!
<---Competitive female bodybuilder. Lean, strong and toned when I'm not on stage flexing. Still might want to re-think what you know about female bodybuilders. As long as you don't use steroids you won't look like one. I've been lifting heavy and hard since 2011.
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MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Not unless you are on gear, like Kris Gethin.
It is what it is. Whether he's taking anything or not is besides the point. The fact is it's definitely possible. I'm just stating what works for me. If you disagree with what I do for my results, that's fine. No need for the my opinon can beat up your opinion's dad MFP typicalities
No, that is precisely the point. Context.0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Not unless you are on gear, like Kris Gethin.
It is what it is. Whether he's taking anything or not is besides the point. The fact is it's definitely possible. I'm just stating what works for me. If you disagree with what I do for my results, that's fine. No need for the my opinon can beat up your opinion's dad MFP typicalities
No, that is the point. You can't make those kinds of gains (especially in a deficit) unless you use steroids. Period. You can do whatever you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you are getting results you aren't. While you are at it you may want to ditch using bioelectrial impedence to monitor body fat/lean mass gains.0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Not unless you are on gear, like Kris Gethin.
It is what it is. Whether he's taking anything or not is besides the point. The fact is it's definitely possible. I'm just stating what works for me. If you disagree with what I do for my results, that's fine. No need for the my opinon can beat up your opinion's dad MFP typicalities
sigh
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@MattLewis521 I... I think it's been said, and I'm not into animal cruelty, so I'll spare the dead horse...
I am not interested in taking steroids to meet my fitness goals.
I am not interested in taking Herbalife to meet my fitness goals.
I am not interested in taking Shakeology to meet my fitness goals.
In short, that is EXACTLY the point... Sure, it's possible. I mean, ANYTHING is possible with the right amount of drugs, money, manipulation, scandal, lies, blah, blah, blah, etc... If THAT'S what it takes for YOU to get the results you need, then good on you. But don't act like you're working half as hard as the rest of us who aren't using your "Miracle Bro-Gro" to get gains...
@usmcmp I certainly hope I didn't offend, as that wasn't my intentions. As I mentioned multiple times throughout my post, I'm quite uneducated in regards to the fitness world, and by the help of you lovely fitness folks, I'm looking to change that. I will admit at first I saw the body building photo, and thought to myself "that's more than I'm looking to achieve" and then once I see dress photo (and the others on your profile) I was like, "Damn!", your success is incredibly applaud-worthy, and I hope I can muster the dedication to get near where you are.
tl;dr: I guess the better way to phrase it was, I'm not interested in bodybuilding, hence I'm not interested in bulking up/cutting enough to where I could actually do bodybuilding. I mean, I also used to think I wanted to be 125 pounds, but as you can tell that goal is changing. It's a journey-- who knows where I'll wind up!!0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »Muscle gains while on a calorie deficit is not likely to happen. You’ve seen some gain, but that had more to do with being new to lifting and keeping your deficit at a reasonable level.
If you want to go for both, then you’ll need to lower your expectations of each. Here’s how I would do it:
- Change the calorie deficit to 250 per day (this will slow your fat loss).
- Increase your protein a little.
- Change your rep range from 5 to 8, but still lift as heavy as you can (shift from strength to hypertrophy focus).
It might take another two months to see any tangible results.
this right here is it!
well put sir0 -
Also, to whomever it was that commented on my "sexist" post, please note that I as well, have female genitalia, so obviously I have our best interest in mind just as much as you. I simply have a sense of humor that clearly operates on a different level than yours (which is fine) but that's called the internet and you can't let everything offend you.
With that being said-- what I meant by that post, is that women (naturally, typically, USUALLY) have less testosterone than men. THEREFORE, it takes more effort for us to gain muscle than most men. We were literally put here to make babies and barefoot it in the kitchen, but we excel and surpass that, because dammit we rock, and if we wanna lift, then SO BE IT!
Of course there are ways around the whole "having to work harder than men" but again that brings us to @MattLewis521 point about the point that doesn't exist
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@MattLewis521 I... I think it's been said, and I'm not into animal cruelty, so I'll spare the dead horse...
I am not interested in taking steroids to meet my fitness goals.
I am not interested in taking Herbalife to meet my fitness goals.
I am not interested in taking Shakeology to meet my fitness goals.
In short, that is EXACTLY the point... Sure, it's possible. I mean, ANYTHING is possible with the right amount of drugs, money, manipulation, scandal, lies, blah, blah, blah, etc... If THAT'S what it takes for YOU to get the results you need, then good on you. But don't act like you're working half as hard as the rest of us who aren't using your "Miracle Bro-Gro" to get gains...
@usmcmp I certainly hope I didn't offend, as that wasn't my intentions. As I mentioned multiple times throughout my post, I'm quite uneducated in regards to the fitness world, and by the help of you lovely fitness folks, I'm looking to change that. I will admit at first I saw the body building photo, and thought to myself "that's more than I'm looking to achieve" and then once I see dress photo (and the others on your profile) I was like, "Damn!", your success is incredibly applaud-worthy, and I hope I can muster the dedication to get near where you are.
tl;dr: I guess the better way to phrase it was, I'm not interested in bodybuilding, hence I'm not interested in bulking up/cutting enough to where I could actually do bodybuilding. I mean, I also used to think I wanted to be 125 pounds, but as you can tell that goal is changing. It's a journey-- who knows where I'll wind up!!
It would take at least 3 years of very very dedicated work to build the kind of muscle to even come close to competing. That is why we keep saying that you aren't accidentally going to end up there even if you were to do a bulk/cut cycle. It is very tough work.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »Muscle gains while on a calorie deficit is not likely to happen. You’ve seen some gain, but that had more to do with being new to lifting and keeping your deficit at a reasonable level.
If you want to go for both, then you’ll need to lower your expectations of each. Here’s how I would do it:
- Change the calorie deficit to 250 per day (this will slow your fat loss).
- Increase your protein a little.
- Change your rep range from 5 to 8, but still lift as heavy as you can (shift from strength to hypertrophy focus).
It might take another two months to see any tangible results.
this right here is it!
well put sir
So see this is where I have my dilemma... I do accept that bumping up from my original 1400 calories (at least a 500 deficit) is a good idea. When I went from 1200 to 1400, I lost like, 9 pounds and started gaining muscle. Now I plateaued... While I don't want to keep doing the inchworm and halt progress, when I could be eating at the proper deficit (or maintenance, or surplus) and seeing the results that my hard work in the gym deserves
I'm not worried about losing weight right now. I'm concerned with gaining muscle first and foremost. YES, I still want to lose a chunk of the body fat that I have. If that will be easier to do once there's some muscle on my bones, then I'll go that route. Just seems silly to shed the amount of fat I wanna lose (when it's probably just a single digit number of pounds at this point) when I'll be gaining some anyway during gaining muscle...
Hence... bulking seems to be the way to go... Right? Lol0 -
MattLewis521 wrote: »MattLewis521 wrote: »Generally, I lose about 2lb a week, and can put on roughly .25-.45lb of muscle in a week.
.45 lbs/week is 23 lbs of muscle added in a year.
That is an extraordinarily high amount of lean mass added. Like...Mr. Olympia with syringes sticking out his butt scale of extraordinary...
Ahh you're right my number was high, what I get for typing this while I work. It's .15-.35lb / week.
That said...
I would disagree with your statement when you have guys like Kris Gethin (Chief Editor of BB.com) who provenly put on 20lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kris-gethins-12-week-muscle-building-trainer.html
I haven't done the routine personally, but it would seem 20ish lbs of muscle a year is not so far fetched..
Also you're using Lean Mass and Muscle interchangeably.
Lean mass includes stuff like fluid in your muscles, bone density, connective tissue, etc as well as muscle
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Muscle gains while on a calorie deficit is not likely to happen. You’ve seen some gain, but that had more to do with being new to lifting and keeping your deficit at a reasonable level.
If you want to go for both, then you’ll need to lower your expectations of each. Here’s how I would do it:
- Change the calorie deficit to 250 per day (this will slow your fat loss).
- Increase your protein a little.
- Change your rep range from 5 to 8, but still lift as heavy as you can (shift from strength to hypertrophy focus).
It might take another two months to see any tangible results.
this right here is it!
well put sir
So see this is where I have my dilemma... I do accept that bumping up from my original 1400 calories (at least a 500 deficit) is a good idea. When I went from 1200 to 1400, I lost like, 9 pounds and started gaining muscle. Now I plateaued... While I don't want to keep doing the inchworm and halt progress, when I could be eating at the proper deficit (or maintenance, or surplus) and seeing the results that my hard work in the gym deserves
I'm not worried about losing weight right now. I'm concerned with gaining muscle first and foremost. YES, I still want to lose a chunk of the body fat that I have. If that will be easier to do once there's some muscle on my bones, then I'll go that route. Just seems silly to shed the amount of fat I wanna lose (when it's probably just a single digit number of pounds at this point) when I'll be gaining some anyway during gaining muscle...
Hence... bulking seems to be the way to go... Right? Lol
if you primary goal is gaining muscle then set MFP to .5 or 1 pound per week gain, eat to that number, and keep doing strong lifts..
however, I do not agree with the advice of changing the rep range in strong lifts. It is a structured program and the rep ranges are set to what they are for a reason...
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Also, to whomever it was that commented on my "sexist" post, please note that I as well, have female genitalia, so obviously I have our best interest in mind just as much as you. I simply have a sense of humor that clearly operates on a different level than yours (which is fine) but that's called the internet and you can't let everything offend you.
With that being said-- what I meant by that post, is that women (naturally, typically, USUALLY) have less testosterone than men. THEREFORE, it takes more effort for us to gain muscle than most men. We were literally put here to make babies and barefoot it in the kitchen, but we excel and surpass that, because dammit we rock, and if we wanna lift, then SO BE IT!
Of course there are ways around the whole "having to work harder than men" but again that brings us to @MattLewis521 point about the point that doesn't exist
That was me and I'm a pretty inoffensible person- and clearly since I'm behind bars I don't have a problem speaking up -and what you said- is affronting- grab your tits and saddle up and get to work. You're life on earth is more than pumping out babies... and yes women are perfectly capable of being sexist. And your idea that a women's only purpose in life is to pump out a child and live in the kitchen barefoot is as sexist as they come.
That's like saying "I'm not racist- I dated a black guy once"
Never the less- moving on.
It takes years to get to a high level competitive stage- and gear to move up towards pro/pro leagues.- But you can change your body significantly with hard work and dedication.
You don't need supplements- herablife- or shakeology- you just need to work hard for a long time. But it's more than do-able.0 -
this got weird0
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »
So see this is where I have my dilemma... I do accept that bumping up from my original 1400 calories (at least a 500 deficit) is a good idea. When I went from 1200 to 1400, I lost like, 9 pounds and started gaining muscle. Now I plateaued... While I don't want to keep doing the inchworm and halt progress, when I could be eating at the proper deficit (or maintenance, or surplus) and seeing the results that my hard work in the gym deserves
I'm not worried about losing weight right now. I'm concerned with gaining muscle first and foremost. YES, I still want to lose a chunk of the body fat that I have. If that will be easier to do once there's some muscle on my bones, then I'll go that route. Just seems silly to shed the amount of fat I wanna lose (when it's probably just a single digit number of pounds at this point) when I'll be gaining some anyway during gaining muscle...
Hence... bulking seems to be the way to go... Right? Lol
Everyone is a little different. I usually do fine with the slow and steady. I can cycle my eating across a week so I feel well fed and have the energy to train well. Every few weeks, I see measurement improvements and know I’m getting good body composition changes.
When I do bulk and cut, I feel like bi-polar psychopath. The bulks are awesome, high energy time when I love the world, lift heavy, see great strength gains and have the mental clarity to solve world peace. The cuts are hell, low energy, burn the world, fighting (and hating) the strength decline (even if it is two steps forward, one step back, I hate that step back), and a fuzzy, lack of mental focus.
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Recomps which integrate calorie/carb cycling can certainly achieve this, although you'd be looking at fat loss over a greater amount of time than a traditional bulk/cut routine. I've been doing a +20/-30 recomp cycle for the last two months, and have consistently upped my PRs while steadily (albeit slowly) losing BF. I'm down about 3%, and I've seen notable improvement in my strength and overall definition. It's a matter of what your goals are, really.0
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@AllanMisner That is what I'm really afraid of... I mean, I was doing/feeling just fine on 1400, and I feel like even during the cutting stage, I probably won't want to be on such a high (500+) deficit, right?
@joeboland I apologize, but I guess I'm not sure what you mean by recomps integrating calorie/carb cycling? From what I did gather from your post, bulking/cutting seems to be the "quicker" way to get things done?
@JoRocka I'm going to stop responding, as my messages are getting grossly misconstrued and I'm genuinely looking for advice, not a fight. I'm not trying to attack you or your beliefs. And I never said that I believe that our sole purpose is to have babies... I mean, that's (if you look at the bible, or science, or whatever have you) our greatest advantage over men. We can have babies. We can populate. That's kind of what we do. It's not ALL that we do. We have jobs. We have rights. We have (clearly) opinions of our own, and for most of us, the ability to respect those opinions. I'm sorry that you feel that I'm such a misogynist, and I apologize if you took what I said to offense, but you're more than welcome to excuse yourself from this thread if you're genuinely that bothered by sarcasm and the internet.0 -
I'm just learning all this so if I get something wrong someone please correct me.
To gain muscle you have to eat more.
To loose fat you have to eat less.
I think I found a good medium (at least for me)
My BMR - 1498
MY TDEE - 2191
I have MFP set to 1800 calories a day and I usually eat 2000 a day when I work out. I'm loosing weight very VERY slowly (I've lost about 3 pounds in 35 days of religious MFP logging) but I've lost at least a good inch off my waist and hips (I didn't start tape measuring until about 3 weeks ago)
So find a good middle and don't expect the scale to move a lot but it can be done.
Side note: I don't know if this matters with muscle gain or not but I did do a lot of weight lifting before I got on my calorie deficit.0 -
@Asher_Ethan What kind of exercise are you doing? How long for, and how often? A good inch off your waist and hips in approx a month is a pretty good NSV in my opinion! I've lost *maybe* half an inch in the near 70 days of religious logging, though I lost 9 pounds... That's why I decided to start focusing on muscle, since my current plan wasn't getting me anywhere in regards to my goals (inches wise, at least)0
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If you want to lose weight, eat in a deficit.
If you want lose weight and hold on to as much muscle mass as possible while eating in a deficit, lift heavy stuff and hit your macros.
If you want to add muscle, you are going to have to eat to get it and except the fact that some fat will come with it.
Can you look like you added muscle while eating in a deficit? Yes you can. Can you gain strength as a new lifter while eating in a deficit? Yes you can. Can you do this forever? No.
To gain muscle mass you are going to need to eat in a caloric surplus, or start looking for something along the lines of an Anabolic.
The truth is, you are probably just hoping to look muscular, which you CAN do if you lift heavy stuff in a deficit. Just make sure you pay attention to your macros.
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Thank you @gia07, @MzShelleRenea, @lisag0109; @labyars; @rybo; and @scaryg53. Appreciate the feedback. I still am a newbie on weight training and hesitate to weigh (geezus) in on this topic in these forums when there are so many others that have worked through all this information over years and years. It was a little mind-blowing when I first started and did some research. Had to toss what I thought I knew was "right" right out the window (cardio forever, and maybe mess around with some of those weight machines if I feel like it! And, what do you mean I have to eat over maintenance, can't my muscles just use my excess fat for energy to grow? HUH????).
@NekoneMeowMixx, you've gotten some good information. I found the introduction in the book "Practical Programming for Strength Training" (Rippetoe et. al; companion to Starting Strength) a good, very short encapsulation of "exercise" versus "training" (you can download the free sample of that e-book to get that intro on Amazon without buying the whole thing, but it's a good book regardless). Take a look especially at how he suggests capitalizing on lifting progressively heavier loads for new lifters. I'm going to PM you with a bit more details.
Don't worry about the concept of "bulking." It's just a word meaning building up muscle. You're not going to actually look bulky. Once again, looking bulky is something that happens over a long period of time with intense training. Not gonna happen unless you want it to.
Just to lighten things up a bit:
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@Asher_Ethan What kind of exercise are you doing? How long for, and how often? A good inch off your waist and hips in approx a month is a pretty good NSV in my opinion! I've lost *maybe* half an inch in the near 70 days of religious logging, though I lost 9 pounds... That's why I decided to start focusing on muscle, since my current plan wasn't getting me anywhere in regards to my goals (inches wise, at least)
@NekoneMeowMixx 3 hours a week of weight training and usually 4 hours a week of cardio. Recently It's been 6 hours a week of cardio because I have a half marathon next month that I'm trying to get ready for.0 -
@CarlydogsMom I'm looking forward to it! And the e-card post made me laugh, literally out loud... xD0
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I wish I had more information on the item below the cardboard Arnold notice....what "rectum..." problem did that kitten have???0
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Never recommended that for clients. Just focused on one or the other. I also tried out that combo personally just to see. I cut calories and started lifting heavy again. At first I did lose weight, but plateaued quickly as my body essentially recomp'd. I held around 200 pounds but start to get more definition. So measurements would change, but not weight.0
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UPDATE:
Went to the gym tonight (with the boyfriend, so I would have that extra motivation and someone to push me) and I wound up going from these weights:
Squat: 70lb
Bench: 40lb
Barbell Row: 50lb
to
Squat: 100lb
Bench: 45lb
Dumbbell Row: 25lb
HUGE improvement on my squats (I knew I wasn't pushing myself hard enough!) Managed to move up 5 pounds on my bench presses, as suggested by SL5x5, and switched to Dumbbbell row from Barbell row, since doing the barbell row was really messing up my back, and I wasn't comfortable with the form...
Feeling super confident about this bulking now... thanks again for all the advice!0 -
Good for you, nice on the squats!0
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »UPDATE:
Went to the gym tonight (with the boyfriend, so I would have that extra motivation and someone to push me) and I wound up going from these weights:
Squat: 70lb
Bench: 40lb
Barbell Row: 50lb
to
Squat: 100lb
Bench: 45lb
Dumbbell Row: 25lb
HUGE improvement on my squats (I knew I wasn't pushing myself hard enough!) Managed to move up 5 pounds on my bench presses, as suggested by SL5x5, and switched to Dumbbbell row from Barbell row, since doing the barbell row was really messing up my back, and I wasn't comfortable with the form...
Feeling super confident about this bulking now... thanks again for all the advice!
Here's an article about bulking. It discusses eating enough calories to fuel your workouts but stays away from some of the higher weight gain bulking plans. Might be what you're looking for. Good luck.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking0 -
@Packerjohn Great article-- I definitely appreciate it! I don't think I was quite to the point of eating THAT many calories per day (thank goodness) but it's good to know that the whole "bulk/cut" thing is pretty defunct.DvlDwnInGA wrote: »If you want to lose weight, eat in a deficit.
To gain muscle mass you are going to need to eat in a caloric surplus, or start looking for something along the lines of an Anabolic.
The truth is, you are probably just hoping to look muscular, which you CAN do if you lift heavy stuff in a deficit. Just make sure you pay attention to your macros.
The article that @Packerjohn provided seems like what everyone was suggesting when they said bulk/cut. The truth is, I'm not looking for the body building type shape. See, under "The Illusion of Small"
Losing body fat will make you look and feel smaller and less muscular at first (...) muscle definition will look the same, but clothes will be looser and you'll feel smaller because muscles will be flat from a lack of glycogen.
THIS is what I'm after. YES, I want to be strong, but I'm looking for lean, flat muscles; I simply don't have the desire to "bulk" up or obtain a single digit (or near single digit) body fat percentage... Honestly I see myself pretty happy at 16 - 18% (based on calculations and reference photos I've seen)
Because I understand that "16 - 18% body fat" means a lot of different things depending on many different factors, I've included a reference photo for what I'm basing my 16 - 18% on...
Soooo, given this... What do? I'm thinking of putting my calories to about 1600 (maintenance level, according to some cross-referencing/research) and going from there?
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I think you're confused.
Single digit is lean for guys. For girls 16-18% is lean.
I'm not sure bulking/cutting is "defunct". It's a tool that you can use and will be extremely effective if you use it properly. It's the quickest way to do things.
Recomp can also produce good results if you have the mental fortitude, iron discipline and patience it requires.
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This discussion has been closed.
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