Muscle Gain on a Calorie Deficit?
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LolBroScience wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@tzarba To my knowledge, you will gain about the same of each, but you're absolutely going to put on some fat if you want to gain muscle. If you start seeing a trend of say 5:1 fat/muscle pounds, THEN you have something to be worried about...
This is what I had to remind myself of when I stepped on the scale this morning and saw I'd jumped up 5 pounds. As @jemhh said, it's probably all water weight (which makes me hate my scale's inaccuracies even more, as it said I'd "lost" water weight...) but I look just as small, my pants still fit the same, and I don't feel bloated. If anything my muscles are sore (which is a good sign, of course) but in no way do I feel "fatter".
And yeah, I'll just have to wait and see how things go. I'm guessing I'll put on anywhere between 10 and 15 pounds within the next few months if I do things right (I think this is a safe assumption?) and I'm sure by then I would start noticing the muscle gains/gained strength. At which time I could start cutting.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/
That was actually an incredibly helpful article. I'm pasting and highlighting some of the last part for reference as to what I'm about to say:
Practical Recommendations
If you’re above 15% body fat (about 24-27% for women), diet first. If you can get to the 10-12% (19-24%) body fat range or so, I think you’ll be in an overall better position to gain mass.
After finishing your diet, regardless of how lean you get, take 2 weeks to eat at roughly maintenance calorie levels before starting your mass gaining phase. The reason has to do with the physiological adaptations to dieting described briefly above. Although you can’t reverse all of them short of getting fat again (or fixing the problem pharmaceutically), 2 weeks at maintenance, which by definition should be higher calories than you were eating on your diet, will help to normalize some of them. Leptin, thyroid, SNS output should improve a bit, along with other hormones, putting you in a better place to gain mass without super excessive fat gain. Make sure to get at least 100 grams of carbs/day or more during this phase so that thyroid will come back up.
Only try to add mass/bulk until you hit the top end body fat percentage listed in #1 above. So that’s about 15% body fat for men and 24-27% body fat for women. What this would mean in practice is that you diet to 10-12% body fat for men (22-24% for women), eat at maintenance for two weeks to try and normalize things, and then add mass until you hit 15% body fat for men (22-24% for women) and then diet back down. Over a number of cycles, you should be able to increase your muscle mass while keeping body fat under control
I'm currently at 23.6% body fat, which is just below the very high end of the body fat range at which he recommends beginning a "bulk" or mass gaining stage. At my lowest I was 22.1% which was after I had switched to 1400 calories as opposed to 1200 (whereas I was at 24.2%) so I feel like (for where I am right now) 1200 is definitely too low, but I think 2000 may be a bit too high. I think eating at maintenance until I can get closer to the 19% of things (I'd feel comfortable beginning a bulk around 20%) would yield the best results. Because if I start now (I've only been at it less than a week, and I've gained 1.5% body fat) I understand this is probably largely inaccurate, but following the trend, a 1.5% increase in body fat percentage in 4 days where I wasn't fluctuating much more than - 0.3 / + 0.3 every few days at a deficit just makes me think I'd be more comfortable with this when I'm a little closer to where I want to be body fat-wise, and then focus on bulking
(Please refrain from telling me how wrong I am and what a terrible idea this is, and I'm doing it all wrong-- unless you can provide better evidence that there's a better option)
This is the kind of evidence / tutorial / how-to that I was looking for. This makes a lot more sense now, thank you.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »UPDATE:
Went to the gym tonight (with the boyfriend, so I would have that extra motivation and someone to push me) and I wound up going from these weights:
Squat: 70lb
Bench: 40lb
Barbell Row: 50lb
to
Squat: 100lb
Bench: 45lb
Dumbbell Row: 25lb
HUGE improvement on my squats (I knew I wasn't pushing myself hard enough!) Managed to move up 5 pounds on my bench presses, as suggested by SL5x5, and switched to Dumbbbell row from Barbell row, since doing the barbell row was really messing up my back, and I wasn't comfortable with the form...
Feeling super confident about this bulking now... thanks again for all the advice!
Are you including the bar weight in those lift numbers?0 -
Yeah, I am. Planet Fitness' Smith machine bar is only 20 pounds as opposed to a traditional 45 pound Olympic bar (which I was very, very disappointed to find out, but pumped me up to start lifting heavier!)
Why do you ask? (Don't make fun of my tiny muscles :c) lol0 -
You have not gained 2 lbs. of fat (1.5% of your beginning bodyweight) in the past week while eating 2000 calories a day. There is absolutely no way that happened.0
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@jemhh I didn't think so either. I'm beginning to question the validity of the scale at all... How am I supposed to know what the best plan is for me if I don't even know where I'm at?
![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@tzarba To my knowledge, you will gain about the same of each, but you're absolutely going to put on some fat if you want to gain muscle. If you start seeing a trend of say 5:1 fat/muscle pounds, THEN you have something to be worried about...
I'm currently at 23.6% body fat, which is just below the very high end of the body fat range at which he recommends beginning a "bulk" or mass gaining stage. At my lowest I was 22.1% which was after I had switched to 1400 calories as opposed to 1200 (whereas I was at 24.2%) so I feel like (for where I am right now) 1200 is definitely too low, but I think 2000 may be a bit too high. I think eating at maintenance until I can get closer to the 19% of things (I'd feel comfortable beginning a bulk around 20%) would yield the best results. Because if I start now (I've only been at it less than a week, and I've gained 1.5% body fat) I understand this is probably largely inaccurate, but following the trend, a 1.5% increase in body fat percentage in 4 days where I wasn't fluctuating much more than - 0.3 / + 0.3 every few days at a deficit just makes me think I'd be more comfortable with this when I'm a little closer to where I want to be body fat-wise, and then focus on bulking
I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
And I agree with this:You have not gained 2 lbs. of fat (1.5% of your beginning bodyweight) in the past week while eating 2000 calories a day. There is absolutely no way that happened.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@jemhh I didn't think so either. I'm beginning to question the validity of the scale at all... How am I supposed to know what the best plan is for me if I don't even know where I'm at?
I think the best gauge is the mirror, honestly (and pictures). It comes down to how you feel about it (how much fat you feel comfortable carrying before you gain weight). But, if you don't have access to a bod pod or whatever, maybe triangulate between methods - the body fat calculators online, pics, and waist circumference.0 -
I realize that's unhelpful when you're trying to work to specific percentages, sorry 0
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I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
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futuremanda wrote: »NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »@tzarba To my knowledge, you will gain about the same of each, but you're absolutely going to put on some fat if you want to gain muscle. If you start seeing a trend of say 5:1 fat/muscle pounds, THEN you have something to be worried about...
I'm currently at 23.6% body fat, which is just below the very high end of the body fat range at which he recommends beginning a "bulk" or mass gaining stage. At my lowest I was 22.1% which was after I had switched to 1400 calories as opposed to 1200 (whereas I was at 24.2%) so I feel like (for where I am right now) 1200 is definitely too low, but I think 2000 may be a bit too high. I think eating at maintenance until I can get closer to the 19% of things (I'd feel comfortable beginning a bulk around 20%) would yield the best results. Because if I start now (I've only been at it less than a week, and I've gained 1.5% body fat) I understand this is probably largely inaccurate, but following the trend, a 1.5% increase in body fat percentage in 4 days where I wasn't fluctuating much more than - 0.3 / + 0.3 every few days at a deficit just makes me think I'd be more comfortable with this when I'm a little closer to where I want to be body fat-wise, and then focus on bulking
I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
I'm not honestly sure what the best route is, to be honest. I could eat at maintenance, then cut down to 20% body fat, but (I think) it makes more sense to cut to 20% first, and then eat at maintenance to regulate everything out, and then focus on bulking up some.I think the best gauge is the mirror, honestly (and pictures). It comes down to how you feel about it (how much fat you feel comfortable carrying before you gain weight). But, if you don't have access to a bod pod or whatever, maybe triangulate between methods - the body fat calculators online, pics, and waist circumference.
I think this really sums it up best for me. I totally don't mind having to "fatten up" a little in order to get muscle. I get that it comes with the territory and is really just a necessary evil. But I think I would feel a lot more comfortable starting at 20% body fat, then bulking up so I get about as "fat" (in the eyes of the mirror, scale, bodyfat % or whatever will show proper results) as I currently am (i.e-- ~24%)
And that's still helpful-- numbers are, at the end of the day, numbers to me. I use them as a rough estimate to my goals, but really I won't know how many pounds I want to be, or XX BMI/Bodyfat % I'd like to be at until I'm there. So in the meantime, just trying to guess to the best of my abilities and plan my plans from there...0 -
I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
I guess I was thinking shorter term. Like, "oh, I'll just eat at maintenance, pop down to 19%, then bulk" when really, it'd be a long road. My brain was just adding tone or context or something that wasn't there. Thanks!0 -
futuremanda wrote: »I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
I guess I was thinking shorter term. Like, "oh, I'll just eat at maintenance, pop down to 19%, then bulk" when really, it'd be a long road. My brain was just adding tone or context or something that wasn't there. Thanks!
Figured that's what you were thinking. 0 -
Imo you'd do better to stop trying to work with exact percentages because you don't have the tools to let you be accurate. You're using an inaccurate tool (bia scale) and using it to decide your every move. That's like using a metric ruler to measure in inches. Makes no sense.
You are going to have water/glycogen gains in the beginning, especially if you've been restricting carbs somewhat. That's not fat. It's just not.
Are you adding back exercise calories btw?0 -
futuremanda wrote: »I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
I guess I was thinking shorter term. Like, "oh, I'll just eat at maintenance, pop down to 19%, then bulk" when really, it'd be a long road. My brain was just adding tone or context or something that wasn't there. Thanks! Figured that's what you were thinking.
Yeah, I'm not looking for the short road. If it were winter, I'd probably be cool with playing chipmunk and just blaming the extra chub as hibernation weight, haha. But seeing as how it's already getting warm out, I'd rather just recomp through the season, keep adding weights to the bar, and come fall/winter I should be ready to start a bulk session
@jemhh I've been trying to, though I've been struggling to reach 2000 calories to begin with. I plan on trying a recomp, just to get me down to where I feel comfortable "fat-wise" and then I'll start bulking. But yeah, I plan on eating back calories either way.0 -
NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »futuremanda wrote: »I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
I guess I was thinking shorter term. Like, "oh, I'll just eat at maintenance, pop down to 19%, then bulk" when really, it'd be a long road. My brain was just adding tone or context or something that wasn't there. Thanks! Figured that's what you were thinking.
Yeah, I'm not looking for the short road. If it were winter, I'd probably be cool with playing chipmunk and just blaming the extra chub as hibernation weight, haha. But seeing as how it's already getting warm out, I'd rather just recomp through the season, keep adding weights to the bar, and come fall/winter I should be ready to start a bulk session
@jemhh I've been trying to, though I've been struggling to reach 2000 calories to begin with. I plan on trying a recomp, just to get me down to where I feel comfortable "fat-wise" and then I'll start bulking. But yeah, I plan on eating back calories either way.
Well, take it for what it's worth as I am a guy. I have been recomping for about 7 months or so. The process is slow even for me being a guy. I have dropped about 4% BF in that time. Arms, legs, chest measurements have all increased (chest 4" and biceps around 2"). Waist has gone from a 34" to 30" (true measurement at belly button). I have ate at maintenance or thereabouts and have put on 0 pounds.
I have no idea how it would work for you, but my gains/losses are much faster than yours will be most likely. Just trying to give you perspective on the amount of time it could take to get from 24% to 19% at maintenance calories.
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »futuremanda wrote: »I'm probably just confused, but: If you are around 23-24% bf, how will eating at maintenance get you to 19% bf? Or do you mean maintaining for a few weeks and then cutting?
Recomp...
I guess I was thinking shorter term. Like, "oh, I'll just eat at maintenance, pop down to 19%, then bulk" when really, it'd be a long road. My brain was just adding tone or context or something that wasn't there. Thanks! Figured that's what you were thinking.
Yeah, I'm not looking for the short road. If it were winter, I'd probably be cool with playing chipmunk and just blaming the extra chub as hibernation weight, haha. But seeing as how it's already getting warm out, I'd rather just recomp through the season, keep adding weights to the bar, and come fall/winter I should be ready to start a bulk session
@jemhh I've been trying to, though I've been struggling to reach 2000 calories to begin with. I plan on trying a recomp, just to get me down to where I feel comfortable "fat-wise" and then I'll start bulking. But yeah, I plan on eating back calories either way.
Well, take it for what it's worth as I am a guy. I have been recomping for about 7 months or so. The process is slow even for me being a guy. I have dropped about 4% BF in that time. Arms, legs, chest measurements have all increased (chest 4" and biceps around 2"). Waist has gone from a 34" to 30" (true measurement at belly button). I have ate at maintenance or thereabouts and have put on 0 pounds.
I have no idea how it would work for you, but my gains/losses are much faster than yours will be most likely. Just trying to give you perspective on the amount of time it could take to get from 24% to 19% at maintenance calories.
I appreciate it! I figure it would take a while, and like I said once I get closer to where I want to be, I'll know what "number" I really want to be at. I don't even know if I could lose 4 inches around my waist (I consider "waist" to be the natural waist, slimmest point. Then I measure the abdomen at the belly button) but those inches gained/lost are definitely where I'd like to be (in accordance to where I am-- I don't want my waist to be 30" :P)
I understand it can be a long process, which is why I'm going to give it a shot, and see how I feel. If nothing else, I'll increase my calorie intake by 100 calories every other week or so until I'm eating at a slight surplus and just slowly lead into a bulk
Like I said-- time will tell. We'll see0 -
Is there a "Like" or +1 on here? Thanks to @CarlydogsMom for the education.
To OP, the only thing I'd add is, try not to get too obsessive about it all, lest it create excess stress and anxiety, causing you to fall off the wagon completely.0 -
More thoughts on the subject.
(he thinks women have a hard time bulking [getting "fat"] and can get good results anyway with recomp)
http://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/
The vast majority of my clients show up to me already looking pretty good. My job is to simply make them look better by helping them increase their glute shape and decrease their bodyfat. In the past, I trained dozens of obese clients as well as dozens of skinny individuals who sought to gain weight. A proper eating plan to support differing clients’ goals is equally as important as the training itself. Overweight and obese individuals should adhere to a caloric deficit, while underweight individuals should adhere to a caloric surplus.
So it’s not rocket science to say the following:
Obese/overweight people should cut (not bulk)
Skinny/underweight people should bulk (not cut)
But what about those who are at their ideal weight? Should they bulk and cut, or stay the same weight while “recomping”? Does it make a difference if they’re male or female?
As I mentioned previously, many of my female clients nowadays show up to me weighing the appropriate amount – they’re already at their ideal bodyweight. Their caloric intake is appropriate for their goals, and therefore I don’t address their nutrition much, except to verify that they are consuming ample amounts of protein. I don’t have them bulk or cut, all I do is help them get stronger each week. We hammer our hip thrusts, back squats and front squats, deadlifts and sumo deadlifts, back extensions, Bulgarian split squats, chin ups, bench presses, military presses, and rows. In 6 months, voila, they’re looking so much better despite having not changed much in terms of bodyweight (see many of these transformations HERE at my testimonials page). As you can see, it’s indeed possible to make incredible improvements without dramatically altering caloric intake.
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NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »Yeah, I am. Planet Fitness' Smith machine bar is only 20 pounds as opposed to a traditional 45 pound Olympic bar (which I was very, very disappointed to find out, but pumped me up to start lifting heavier!)
Why do you ask? (Don't make fun of my tiny muscles :c) lol
Haha, I wouldn't ever make fun of someone for their body, or their progress.
I was asking because the 40lbs is less than the weight of the regular bar. If you really are enjoying lifting though, I would suggest that you find a gym with free weights rather than PF which has the Smith machine only. I'm really not being an elitist here because I go to PF for cardio stuff, but once you start getting up into higher weights, the Smith machine becomes dangerous. That, and it is teaching you bad habits while not working any of your stabalizer muscles.
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Hi, I just started reading this thread and am really enjoying the motivation. Its crazy, I am almost the same spot as you. I am 126lb, 5'6" 20%BF, and have been working with a nutritionist the past few months working on meal planning and some clean eating. I told her my goal was muscle gain and losing body fat, and she told me initially to gain the muscle, i would have to increase my calories to 2000 if not more. I NEVER eat that much..but after some time I got close to an average of 1900. Some days are better than others. I am also working with a trainer to readjust some of the diet and my powerlifting plan. I am interested in changing my macros, but sticking to the same amount of calories, (cutting the carbs down, as this can help some of that extra fat to be cut at the same time of gaining muscle). It is still a LONG HAUL, but it will be worth it. My trainer also added in some crossfit WODs to my powerlifting to give me some High intensity bursts to burn some calories while lifting weights. I ABSOLUTELY love my workouts and how I feel after. Currently adding in 20min cardio on the days that I dont have those WODs. I love the advice you've been given thus far and will probably be using it for some extra motivation and get me to tough it out. I am like you..when i get nervous I'm seeing results I dont like, i run for the bike and get back to cardio. 2 years ago that was all I did...spin class 4 days a week and some small weightlifting days...i was 117 and 10.8% fat...but NOTHING was toned..I was unhappy with that as well. My trainer told me the other day that I just need to keep working and never feel like I'm starting over or ever feel like I'm 5 steps behind, because the harder I work for it the more character I am building and will be happier in the end. I am ready for these changes, and ready to keep fighting for them!!!
Okay, I know I just rambled a lot, but all that to say, I think its great knowing there are others out there in my shoes and we can motivate each other! You're going to get there! Dont give up on it, each body is different, and you just have to tweak everything to find what your body is going to respond to. AND NEVER GIVE UP!!! :-)0
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