All pills are not snake oil
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WinoGelato wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »smh
Yes i knew it was pointless when i posted but it was rWinoGelato wrote: »OP is it your contention that no one should comment about the possible outcomes of an individual's idea if he or she doesn't have firsthand experience with that idea?
For example, I've never jumped out of an airplane without a parachute but I'm pretty sure I know what the outcome would be if someone wanted to try. Should I not tell them, and instead think, "nah, they will figure it out, why would they bother listening to me, I've never tried it"?
Direct experience is only one method of validating an outcome. The vast majority of researchers don't conduct the experiment on themselves, that would invalidate the data. Should they not comment on the efficacy of supplements or other pills since they've never tried them first hand?
It was a compound point regarding not commenting if you don't know about a product and not commenting just to be cute or sarcastic without any useful points. And many have no basis for comments on a specific supplement other than their general disdain for all supplements. It would be different if they said something about that specific supplement, which i said
Did you have examples of supplements and pills which are in fact, effective for the vast majority of users and have a direct causal relationship to weight loss based on peer reviewed scientific studies? I saw a lot of comments about things you saw in threads that you thought were too sarcastic and generalistic but I'm struggling to understand why "it's snake oil, there are no miracle pills, save your money" is invalid advice?
I had a reply about anecdotes that was deleted, perhaps i was too inensitive. Many often confuse anecdotal evidence with scientific evidence. Even if someone claims that something "worked for them" it a) doesnt mean that it actually worked - it could have been something else (post hoc fallacy), b) their condition could have improved on its own and c) in no way provides the basis for a general suggestion or cure.
So direct experience isn't even a method for validating anything. A good example from Wikipedia:
"There's abundant proof that drinking water cures cancer. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. After drinking water she was cured."
So countering anything with someone's direct experience doesn't hold up to the rigors of the scientific method, no matter how much someone wants to believe themselves.0 -
To be honest, there is a time and a place for weight loss pills. Just like a VLC diet, they can be prescribed by a doctor, and supervised by a doctor, in order to drop a lot of weight quickly if it is needed for health reasons like having life preserving surgery. For everyone else, the few that actually work are just delaying the inevitable (and those few are prescription only). You need to relearn how to eat in order to lose weight and/or maintain a healthy weight.0
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WinoGelato wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »smh
Yes i knew it was pointless when i posted but it was rWinoGelato wrote: »OP is it your contention that no one should comment about the possible outcomes of an individual's idea if he or she doesn't have firsthand experience with that idea?
For example, I've never jumped out of an airplane without a parachute but I'm pretty sure I know what the outcome would be if someone wanted to try. Should I not tell them, and instead think, "nah, they will figure it out, why would they bother listening to me, I've never tried it"?
Direct experience is only one method of validating an outcome. The vast majority of researchers don't conduct the experiment on themselves, that would invalidate the data. Should they not comment on the efficacy of supplements or other pills since they've never tried them first hand?
It was a compound point regarding not commenting if you don't know about a product and not commenting just to be cute or sarcastic without any useful points. And many have no basis for comments on a specific supplement other than their general disdain for all supplements. It would be different if they said something about that specific supplement, which i said
Did you have examples of supplements and pills which are in fact, effective for the vast majority of users and have a direct causal relationship to weight loss based on peer reviewed scientific studies? I saw a lot of comments about things you saw in threads that you thought were too sarcastic and generalistic but I'm struggling to understand why "it's snake oil, there are no miracle pills, save your money" is invalid advice?
I had a reply about anecdotes that was deleted, perhaps i was too inensitive. Many often confuse anecdotal evidence with scientific evidence. Even if someone claims that something "worked for them" it a) doesnt mean that it actually worked - it could have been something else (post hoc fallacy), b) their condition could have improved on its own and c) in no way provides the basis for a general suggestion or cure.
I would add:
d) they feel stupid for having fallen for the scam and instead of admitting it, they prefer to save face by saying that yes, they are a special snowflake that actually experienced the advertised benefits.
I think this one factor alone accounts for most of the incidents of dogged determination to hold onto a belief in the face of all scientific evidence to the contrary.0 -
BINGO!]
I would add:
d) they feel stupid for having fallen for the scam and instead of admitting it, they prefer to save face by saying that yes, they are a special snowflake that actually experienced the advertised benefits.
I think this one factor alone accounts for most of the incidents of dogged determination to hold onto a belief in the face of all scientific evidence to the contrary.
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Agree with Jozz. All things are not snakeoil. Everyones circumstances and life are different and require differing approaches. I am 48 and i work at night. 12-14 hours at night and a goodly portion of the next day is spent sleeping. Hey, guess what i am vit. D deficient what a surprise. Oh you say i should eat better, guess again i eat great. Oh get more sun. Guess again again, i have to sleep. Is that not important to my health? So sue me i take a vit. D supplement and has helped enormously. I also use protein as well as creatine and supplement my B12 via... Wait for it. INJECTIONS. Oh my heavens.
Heads out of the sand people and sometimes outside the box also.
My 2 cents
If it's an injectable it is highly regulated and....wait for it...not classified as a supplement.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »
A placebo is something that doesn't work (an inactive or inert substance). When there's a placebo effect, it means there was a beneficial effect.
I'll remember this at my next FDA review panel.
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this may qualify as one of the most useless threads every generated....0
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VintageFeline wrote: »OP, please show me where people have told those on prescribed medications for medical conditions to stop taking their (not at all snake oil) snake oil supplements? I've never witnessed it. Nor have I seen people told not to take vitamin and mineral supplements if they are still working on getting all they need through diet (I take some supplements myself).
What I do see is a lot of people advising others not to spend their hard earned money on things that are proven not to work to aid weight loss, whether it's a cleanse, raspeberry ketones, teatox, green tea, whatever. Just because you're still clinging onto the false hope that you don't just have to get a grip on your calorie intake doesn't make these products any less snakey or oily.
Really? Now I personally don't have a grip on my calorie intake? Ok yet another example of somebody commenting on something they know nothing about. Smh
The irony of this post has broken my internet.0 -
smhVintageFeline wrote: »OP, please show me where people have told those on prescribed medications for medical conditions to stop taking their (not at all snake oil) snake oil supplements? I've never witnessed it. Nor have I seen people told not to take vitamin and mineral supplements if they are still working on getting all they need through diet (I take some supplements myself).
What I do see is a lot of people advising others not to spend their hard earned money on things that are proven not to work to aid weight loss, whether it's a cleanse, raspeberry ketones, teatox, green tea, whatever. Just because you're still clinging onto the false hope that you don't just have to get a grip on your calorie intake doesn't make these products any less snakey or oily.
Really? Now I personally don't have a grip on my calorie intake? Ok yet another example of somebody commenting on something they know nothing about. Smh
The irony of this post has broken my internet.
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Not surprised after your response on yoga headstands and "bunching" muscles. There's much more to supplement manufacturing than the public knows about. They figure it's in a bottle, so like medicine it's safe and works. Not the truth though.Patttience wrote: »I'm sorry I just get annoyed that I've read so many questions about supplements, and people just cut and paste "only a calorie deficit works". Or instantly post the thing doesn't work and is snake oil and will only lean your pockets. People have posted about medical issues and that's the response without reading, i.e. "my doctor prescribed such and such for my bad liver. will it make me gain weight"? response: "there are no magic pills." smh.
I realize there are no pills that you eat whatever you want and live on the couch and lose 50 pounds a day. But some supplements might effectively curb your appetite, or give you the energy to work out, etc. and even if it is a placebo effect on some of them, so what? If you're eating better and working out more and blame the pill, what's the harm unless it's actually dangerous. I think posting that a supplement is snake oil without knowing anything about it is just as reckless as promoting something you know nothing about. Supplements obviously work for some people. I think it makes more sense to talk about specific research and what the pros and cons and potential dangers are rather than just jumping on people whenever they mention any sort of pill. If you don't know, you don't have to answer.
I completely agree with you OP.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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christinev297 wrote: »Jozzmenia have you tried any of these weight loss products, and have they made a dramatic difference to your weight loss?
Like I said, the only thing they did for me was make me poorer..
I've taken alot in my 35 years on earth the only ones to havr a significant memorable effect were metabolife and adipex in terms of pills. Finding a protein i liked was also a godsend for my weight loss. Had a trainer recommend lipo 6 black but told me to drink extra water because it's bad for the liver. Smh. I've done medical weight loss, weight watchers, and different shakes.
That would terrify me. That said, I've done none of the "diets" you listed and lost weight.
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Agree with Jozz. All things are not snakeoil. Everyones circumstances and life are different and require differing approaches. I am 48 and i work at night. 12-14 hours at night and a goodly portion of the next day is spent sleeping. Hey, guess what i am vit. D deficient what a surprise. Oh you say i should eat better, guess again i eat great. Oh get more sun. Guess again again, i have to sleep. Is that not important to my health? So sue me i take a vit. D supplement and has helped enormously. I also use protein as well as creatine and supplement my B12 via... Wait for it. INJECTIONS. Oh my heavens.
Heads out of the sand people and sometimes outside the box also.
My 2 cents
So you are treating medical conditions with targeted supplements. Exactly what this thread is NOT about. Many of us do that.
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Agree with Jozz. All things are not snakeoil. Everyones circumstances and life are different and require differing approaches. I am 48 and i work at night. 12-14 hours at night and a goodly portion of the next day is spent sleeping. Hey, guess what i am vit. D deficient what a surprise. Oh you say i should eat better, guess again i eat great. Oh get more sun. Guess again again, i have to sleep. Is that not important to my health? So sue me i take a vit. D supplement and has helped enormously. I also use protein as well as creatine and supplement my B12 via... Wait for it. INJECTIONS. Oh my heavens.
Heads out of the sand people and sometimes outside the box also.
My 2 cents
So you are treating medical conditions with targeted supplements. Exactly what this thread is NOT about. Many of us do that.
So much this.
I take a calcium supplement because I used to get sufficient calcium from drinking a lot of milk. I no longer drink milk because I'd rather eat my calories.
I'm over 60, so getting sufficient calcium is a concern that my diet can no longer adequately address. So I take a calcium supplement. 0 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »Actually the only reason I didn't respond was because I have a job and a long commute, and my response would be too long. But I will respond more when I get home. But I was referring not just to diet pills specifically but to everything in the realm related to anything that goes in your mouth and is posted on MyFitnessPal. That includes vitamins and prescription medications. I was pointing out how a lot of people will respond and say it snake oil and there are no miracle pills without even reading the entire post or looking at the point or without knowing anything about the product That was my frustration. But I will respond more later.
Where did anyone say that prescriptions and vitamins are snake oil? The worst I've seen said about prescriptions (aside from the side effects) is that if you don't learn better habits while taking it, you won't have success when you eventually come off it, as they're only meant for short-term use. As for vitamins, if you aren't deficient in something, it doesn't do any good. Those things are both true.
Ugh i just said it. I've seen it plenty of times because people don't even read the topic fully they just have the same response to everything because they think anyone posting an inquiry wants to lose 50 pounds in three days.
Please try not to generalize. We actually could have a respectful conversation about this.
A lot of us here end up feeling protective of people because we DO see so many posts from those wanting to lose too much weight too fast, or wanting a solution for weight loss that simply doesn't exist.
It's really hard to see people insisting that there must be a good reason to spend a lot of money they don't need to spend and take miracle pills (some of which are straight-up dangerous; most of which are demonstrably useless) or buy wraps (also known to be useless) or whatever.
One big problem is that the supplement industry in the U.S. is not regulated. I could put, say, some ginger and some beetle wings and some cinnamon and some honey into capsules right now, sell it as 'Metabolism-Boosting Tiger Energy' supplement at $20 a bottle, and make any claim I want to about it as long as I don't make specific claims about being able to prevent or cure medical conditions. Wanna buy some? I have testimonials from 20 of my best friends about how well it works.
That's a problem. And pointing it out doesn't mean those doing so are being close-minded.
I could be respectful anyway. Some people resort to personal attacks... for attention i suppose. I must be morbidly obese if i have any difference of opinion. Smh.
And for those who bothered to read my initial post, i didn't say i support all pills or supplements or don't think people should provide information on them. But speaking of being general, the blanket and sarcastic statements don't help anyone. If someone said "does anyone know anything about metabolife" (old i know). I might say how i took it in college and it have massive energy to do more cardio and i lost about 15 pounds but one day woke up in the middle of the night with my heart racing. That would be need to know info. Saying there are no miracle pills, considering the person didn't ask if there were any miracle pills, is useless and condescending. And the term miracle pill implies someone is looking for a miracle. Thus the 50 pounds a day commenr. Asking if something curbs appetite or gives energy or curbs cravings, etc. Is not a miracle.
While you may believe that its useless and condescending, it is disingenuous to not tell people what sciences has proven... that diet pills and most supplements do NOT work. In the 6 yrs + that I have been hear, the only time people recommend getting off a doctor prescribed pill is when it comes to an appetite suppressant (so people learn how to stay full by themselves, which will help long term success). No one has even told someone to get off of the iron, vitamin D or etc.. supplement to address a deficiency, especially when under a doctors/specialist care. Many people, especially women, require supplements to address deficiencies.
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kshama2001 wrote: »
A placebo is something that doesn't work (an inactive or inert substance). When there's a placebo effect, it means there was a beneficial effect.
I'll remember this at my next FDA review panel.
You know, whenever we ask principle investigators to justify a placebo being used in a trial, I have no idea why they just don't say "because placebos work too"... They always have to think too hard and provide scientific rationale and stuff.0 -
I think that we need to stop focus on losing weight and instead focus on optimizing health. Power up your body with lots of veg, sufficient protein, fat and carbs and you will feel better, get off the couch, move, feel better and loose weight. Putting supplements, otherwise known as "speed" into your body eventually has an negative impact, meaning that you can no longer use it, and doesn't contribute to long term health. Stop looking for a magic pill. One of the reasons I am here is to avoid pills.0
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VintageFeline wrote: »OP, please show me where people have told those on prescribed medications for medical conditions to stop taking their (not at all snake oil) snake oil supplements? I've never witnessed it. Nor have I seen people told not to take vitamin and mineral supplements if they are still working on getting all they need through diet (I take some supplements myself).
What I do see is a lot of people advising others not to spend their hard earned money on things that are proven not to work to aid weight loss, whether it's a cleanse, raspeberry ketones, teatox, green tea, whatever. Just because you're still clinging onto the false hope that you don't just have to get a grip on your calorie intake doesn't make these products any less snakey or oily.
well said.
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did OP ever come back..?
And we learned that @slideaway1 crawls on his belly like a reptile (bonus points if you know the Ray Stevens lyrics). Photo of actual snake oil salesman below included to facilitate easy recognition.
aww.what a cute little snake.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
I'm addicted to sugar.snickerscharlie wrote: »
Low carb is the only way to lose weight! *stomps foot*0 -
If you want to swallow the stuff, I'll support your decision and wish you well. Good luck.
So your saying it's dangerous to take them but you will support said dangerous decision??
That's like saying it's not safe to jump off the Brooklyn bridge, but I'll support your decision to do it.
She's probably tired of people getting b*tthurt and tell her she's mean for telling them the truth.0 -
If you want to swallow the stuff, I'll support your decision and wish you well. Good luck.
So your saying it's dangerous to take them but you will support said dangerous decision??
That's like saying it's not safe to jump off the Brooklyn bridge, but I'll support your decision to do it.
She's probably tired of people getting b*tthurt and tell her she's mean for telling them the truth.
Probably, but not telling the truth is more harmful.
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caroldavison332 wrote: »I think that we need to stop focus on losing weight and instead focus on optimizing health. Power up your body with lots of veg, sufficient protein, fat and carbs and you will feel better, get off the couch, move, feel better and loose weight. Putting supplements, otherwise known as "speed" into your body eventually has an negative impact, meaning that you can no longer use it, and doesn't contribute to long term health. Stop looking for a magic pill. One of the reasons I am here is to avoid pills.
All for this!
Except we're in the weightloss forum so we're kinda preoccupied with the losing weight thing.
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kshama2001 wrote: »
A placebo is something that doesn't work (an inactive or inert substance). When there's a placebo effect, it means there was a beneficial effect.
I'll remember this at my next FDA review panel.
You know, whenever we ask principle investigators to justify a placebo being used in a trial, I have no idea why they just don't say "because placebos work too"... They always have to think too hard and provide scientific rationale and stuff.
Oh duck, the FDA is here?!?!
*scrambles to get notebooks in order*0 -
Ha, don't worry, I'm not FDA. Just work for an IRB at a local institution.crazyjerseygirl wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »
A placebo is something that doesn't work (an inactive or inert substance). When there's a placebo effect, it means there was a beneficial effect.
I'll remember this at my next FDA review panel.
You know, whenever we ask principle investigators to justify a placebo being used in a trial, I have no idea why they just don't say "because placebos work too"... They always have to think too hard and provide scientific rationale and stuff.
Oh duck, the FDA is here?!?!
*scrambles to get notebooks in order*
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This discussion has been closed.
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