DEAR FAT PEOPLE
Replies
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ericGold15 wrote: »
This has been true for a decade or two if memory serves.I am so tired, though, of hearing people talk about how overweight people "did it to themselves", even on this site. When the problem is really just living a default life in our society with a human body. This is an obesogenic society, end of. It is statistically normal to be overweight or obese.
So in 1980 an obese person took personal responsibility, but when the population median was crossed it became something else ?
In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese.0 -
I think you are taking heat because of your 'no sympathy' comment.Obesity does complicate taking care of patients on every level and with overweight and obese people being the large majority of our population, it doesn't matter what I do it's my responsibility as a nurse to know how that affects their care and how to safely manage them. Sorry that offends everyone lol and yes it's still a pain to find 5 free people to hell you turn, it never won't be a pain.
I am a hospital based physician, and I also have ICU duties. It is a rare patient who has not had a hand to one degree or another in their current reason for admission. By personal ethics and a somewhat poorly articulated professional standard, I do not judge my patients, and I respect the right of every competent person to make their own choices about themselves. Is there sympathy where there is no judgement ?
I don't feel any sympathy for a smoker who wants to smoke, but I'll feel for the person if they develop cancer.
Is that internally consistent ? I think so ... for the most part. On the other hand though, I will not endanger myself to pick up an obese person, and I will object e.g to higher taxes to subsidize the care of obesity.
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To nurses and others in medical fields complaining about occupational hazards, and complications involved in treating obese people: it seems like your training, equipment, and staffing are not adequately addressing the needs of these patients. They are not a few patients, either.
There's prevention, sure, and I guess have your private thoughts - but if this is a major problem in e.g. the ER, or in surgery, and you do not have the means or resources to deal with it, somebody needs to put some time into adequately preparing you to adequately treat these people.
Like are you guys trained to do these various procedures on obese people in school? Is there now special equipment & tools & stuff for this group?0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »
I think you are taking heat because of your 'no sympathy' comment.Obesity does complicate taking care of patients on every level and with overweight and obese people being the large majority of our population, it doesn't matter what I do it's my responsibility as a nurse to know how that affects their care and how to safely manage them. Sorry that offends everyone lol and yes it's still a pain to find 5 free people to hell you turn, it never won't be a pain.
I am a hospital based physician. It is a rare patient who has not had a hand to one degree or another in their current reason for admission. By personal ethics and a somewhat poorly articulated professional standard, I do not judge my patients, and I respect the right of every competent person to make their own choices about themselves. Is there sympathy where there is no judgement ?
I don't feel any sympathy for a smoker who wants to smoke, but I'll feel for the person if they develop cancer.
Is that internally consistent ? I think so.
Oh, ok you should be able to answer my question above (hopefully you will).
The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik. The intermediate smoker is an addict. Maybe you should be sympathetic.0 -
I was around in 1980; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not.ericGold15 wrote: »
This has been true for a decade or two if memory serves.I am so tired, though, of hearing people talk about how overweight people "did it to themselves", even on this site. When the problem is really just living a default life in our society with a human body. This is an obesogenic society, end of. It is statistically normal to be overweight or obese.
So in 1980 an obese person took personal responsibility, but when the population median was crossed it became something else ?
In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese.
We had cars, TVs, and junk food. People actually ate 'TV dinners.' Everybody I knew worked in a sedentary job. Super models were skinny.
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ericGold15 wrote: »
I was around in 1980; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not.ericGold15 wrote: »
This has been true for a decade or two if memory serves.I am so tired, though, of hearing people talk about how overweight people "did it to themselves", even on this site. When the problem is really just living a default life in our society with a human body. This is an obesogenic society, end of. It is statistically normal to be overweight or obese.
So in 1980 an obese person took personal responsibility, but when the population median was crossed it became something else ?
In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese.
We had cars, TVs, and junk food. People actually ate 'TV dinners.' Everybody I knew worked in a sedentary job. Super models were skinny.
I was little, but I was there, actually. I wasn't doing much in 1980, but by around 1983ish, I was riding bikes and running around outdoors until sundown, every day it didn't rain. No TV dinners in our house.
Super models were skinny, but most people weren't overweight. (I'm pretty sure there are stats that back this up, but I'm not in a mood to go digging around, sorry.)0 -
You make me wonder if you actually understand the meaning of sympathy.The intermediate smoker is an addict. Maybe you should be sympathetic.
As for your other comments, I *empathize* with the addict, as I do with any person who is suffering. Your notions about the beginning smoker are balderdash.
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ericGold15 wrote: »
You make me wonder if you actually understand the meaning of sympathy.The intermediate smoker is an addict. Maybe you should be sympathetic.
As for your other comments, I *empathize* with the addict, as I do with any person who is suffering. Your notions about the beginning smoker are balderdash.
Mental health
People with mental health problems are more likely to smoke, and smoke more heavily, than the general population, and they’re often overlooked when it comes to offering help to quit.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/sifting-the-evidence/2014/jul/15/smoking-and-mental-health-whats-the-connection
https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/publications/smoking-and-mental-health
Cigarette Smoking and Psychiatric Comorbidity in Children and Adolescents
Psychiatric comorbidity is common in adolescent cigarette smokers, especially disruptive behavior disorders (such as oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder), major depressive disorders, and drug and alcohol use disorders. Anxiety disorders are modestly associated with cigarette smoking. Both early onset (<13 years) cigarette smoking and conduct problems seem to be robust markers of increased psychopathology, including substance abuse, later in life. In spite of the high comorbidity, very few adolescents have nicotine dependence diagnosed or receive smoking cessation treatment in child and adolescent psychiatric treatment settings.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709606341
Age
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/287555-overview#a4
Studies reveal that the average age of first-time smokers is 14.5 years and the average age of daily smokers is 17.7 years. Approximately 20% of high school seniors smoke.
http://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/about-smoking/facts-figures/children-teens-and-tobacco.html
Key Facts About Tobacco Use Among Children and Teenagers
Among adults who smoke, 68 percent began smoking regularly at age 18 or younger, and 85 percent started when they were 21 or younger.4 The average age of daily smoking initiation for new smokers in 2008 was 20.1 years among those 12-49 years old.5
Every day, almost 3,900 children under 18 years of age try their first cigarette, and more than 950 of them will become new, regular daily smokers.6 Half of them will ultimately die from their habit.7
People who begin smoking at an early age are more likely to develop a severe addiction to nicotine than those who start at a later age. Of adolescents who have smoked at least 100 cigarettes in their lifetime, most of them report that they would like to quit, but are not able to do so.8
Prevalence of Tobacco Use Among Children and Teenagers
In 2007, 20 percent of high school students reported smoking in the last 30 days, down 45 percent from 36.4 percent in 1997 when rates peaked after increasing throughout the first half of the 1990s.9
Among high school students in 2007, the most prevalent forms of tobacco used were cigarettes (20 percent), cigars (13.6 percent), and smokeless tobacco (includes chewing tobacco and snuff; 7.9 percent).10
The decline in smoking among high school girls has slowed recently. Between 1999 and 2003, cigarette smoking prevalence among high school girls decreased by 37 percent. However, between 2003 and 2007, there was only a 15 percent decrease in prevalence of cigarette use.11
In 2004, 11.7 percent of middle school students reported using any tobacco product; 8.4 percent used cigarettes. In 2004, 5.3 percent of middle school students were current cigar users, a decline of 30 percent since 1997.12
Since 1990 teenagers and young adults have had the highest rates of maternal smoking during pregnancy. In 2005, 16.6 percent of female teens aged 15-19 and 18.6 percent of women aged 20-24 smoked during pregnancy.13
In 2007, 49.7 percent of current smokers in high school had tried to quit smoking cigarettes.14 In 2002, 55.4 percent of middle school students who smoked seriously tried to quit.15
Additional Facts About Tobacco Use Among Children and Teenagers
The 1998 Master Settlement Agreement (MSA) prohibited tobacco companies from advertising their products in ways that target youth. However, this has not accomplished its intended goal of curtailing tobacco exposure in children.16 Since the MSA, the average youth in the U.S. has been exposed to 559 tobacco ads.17 The impact of the MSA has been weakened as Big Tobacco switched the target of their marketing resources to young adults, seen as a primary role model by older teens.18
Exposure to pro-tobacco marketing and media more than doubles the chances (2.2 times) of children and adolescents starting tobacco use.19
One study found that teens exposed to the greatest amount of smoking in movies were 2.6 times more likely to start smoking themselves compared with teens who watched the least amount of smoking in movies.20
SES & Education
Smoking rates are higher among low socioeconomic (SES) groups, and there is evidence that inequalities in smoking are widening over time in many countries. Low SES smokers may be more likely to smoke and less likely to quit because smoking is heavily concentrated in their social contexts. This study investigated whether low SES smokers (1) have more smoking friends, and (2) are more likely to gain and less likely to lose smoking friends over time. Correlates of having more smoking friends and gaining or losing smoking friends were also considered.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25156228
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/12/303/
Lower educated respondents were significantly more likely to be smokers, smoked more cigarettes per day, had higher initiation ratios, and had lower quit ratios than higher educated respondents. Income inequalities were smaller than educational inequalities and were not all significant, but were in the same direction as educational inequalities. Among women, educational inequalities widened significantly between 2001 and 2008 for smoking prevalence, smoking initiation, and smoking cessation. Among low educated women, smoking prevalence remained stable between 2001 and 2008 because both the initiation and quit ratio increased significantly. Among moderate and high educated women, smoking prevalence decreased significantly because initiation ratios remained constant, while quit ratios increased significantly. Among men, educational inequalities widened significantly between 2001 and 2008 for smoking consumption only.
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^^ All that is true in the US, but it does not add up to: "The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik."
Perhaps an example will clarify: while smoking is highly prevalent in a psychiatric ward, the overwhelming fraction of smokers do not have psychiatric illness.0 -
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In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese. [/quote]
That is beyond ridiculous.
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^ All that is true in the US, but it does not add up to: "The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik."
Perhaps an example will clarify: while smoking is highly prevalent in a psychiatric ward, the overwhelming fraction of smokers do not have psychiatric illness.
Fair enough, I averaged all the beginning smokers out in my example. Not having any evidence to hand just now, though, I would say it's reasonable to guess that my hypothetical three-way correlation holds a good amount of the time.
(I believe one of the links above re: mental health relates to UK data. I'd expect it to hold cross-culturally. Makes sense, if you think about which neurotransmitters nicotine hits. Smoking is a maladaptive coping method/addiction.)0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »^^ All that is true in the US, but it does not add up to: "The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik."
Perhaps an example will clarify: while smoking is highly prevalent in a psychiatric ward, the overwhelming fraction of smokers do not have psychiatric illness.
Actually, I would question this too. First, they are addicts, so they have that particular mental illness, by definition. That's not what you mean, of course, but a lot of smokers do suffer from mood disorders (see links above)0 -
buffalobill41 wrote: »
In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese. [/quote]
That is beyond ridiculous.
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are you going to make me get more stuff0 -
Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)0 -
My personal feelings about the video: I think it was trashy. If you're going to make a video about such a topic it should be heartfelt and meaningful not making us into jokes. I've struggled with a binge eating disorder since I was a kid. There's a difference between someone caring about your health and someone making a joke for views. I've lost almost 35lbs so far but I'm still a big girl. It's a struggle that she will never know.0
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
Why does what we do here have to be the standard, though? I'd say it's fairly normal to maintain a healthy weight if that's one's goal, and most of the people that I know who do, do not use any kind of websites or anything. They eat adequate / small quantities of food, and honestly, most of them do not regularly exercise in a gym, for instance. Some bike a lot, others maybe play a sport or go boating, maybe park at the furthest parking spot available, that sort of thing. And hmm... A lot of them I can think of, actually have foods that they will not eat. Call it food demonization, or picky eating
Anyway, I don't necessarily see their choices as "fighting" to not be obese or abnormal, but I suppose that is more of an individually drawn conclusion than it is a fact
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.
The portion of her video that resonates with me, is that one shouldn't receive preferential treatment for choosing to not maintain a healthy weight
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.
The portion of her video that resonates with me, is that one shouldn't receive preferential treatment for choosing to not maintain a healthy weight
Exactly. When I see two obese people stuffing their faces as a restaurant, are probably same people complaining about their knees, back, heart, or whatever other ailments that associate with obesity. It just shows how sensitive people can be0
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