DEAR FAT PEOPLE
Replies
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ericGold15 wrote: »^^ All that is true in the US, but it does not add up to: "The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik."
Perhaps an example will clarify: while smoking is highly prevalent in a psychiatric ward, the overwhelming fraction of smokers do not have psychiatric illness.
Fair enough, I averaged all the beginning smokers out in my example. Not having any evidence to hand just now, though, I would say it's reasonable to guess that my hypothetical three-way correlation holds a good amount of the time.
(I believe one of the links above re: mental health relates to UK data. I'd expect it to hold cross-culturally. Makes sense, if you think about which neurotransmitters nicotine hits. Smoking is a maladaptive coping method/addiction.)0 -
ericGold15 wrote: »^^ All that is true in the US, but it does not add up to: "The beginning smoker is likely to have incipient or preexisting mental health problems & be really young & less well educated afaik."
Perhaps an example will clarify: while smoking is highly prevalent in a psychiatric ward, the overwhelming fraction of smokers do not have psychiatric illness.
Actually, I would question this too. First, they are addicts, so they have that particular mental illness, by definition. That's not what you mean, of course, but a lot of smokers do suffer from mood disorders (see links above)0 -
buffalobill41 wrote: »
In 1980, obese people were rarer and were probably obese because of more specific, individual reasons (psychological, medical, whatever). Today, you have to fight to NOT be overweight or obese. [/quote]
That is beyond ridiculous.
[/quote]
are you going to make me get more stuff0 -
Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)0 -
My personal feelings about the video: I think it was trashy. If you're going to make a video about such a topic it should be heartfelt and meaningful not making us into jokes. I've struggled with a binge eating disorder since I was a kid. There's a difference between someone caring about your health and someone making a joke for views. I've lost almost 35lbs so far but I'm still a big girl. It's a struggle that she will never know.0
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
Why does what we do here have to be the standard, though? I'd say it's fairly normal to maintain a healthy weight if that's one's goal, and most of the people that I know who do, do not use any kind of websites or anything. They eat adequate / small quantities of food, and honestly, most of them do not regularly exercise in a gym, for instance. Some bike a lot, others maybe play a sport or go boating, maybe park at the furthest parking spot available, that sort of thing. And hmm... A lot of them I can think of, actually have foods that they will not eat. Call it food demonization, or picky eating
Anyway, I don't necessarily see their choices as "fighting" to not be obese or abnormal, but I suppose that is more of an individually drawn conclusion than it is a fact
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.
The portion of her video that resonates with me, is that one shouldn't receive preferential treatment for choosing to not maintain a healthy weight
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Most of y'all completely missed the point of her video. She was talking about those people that don't exercise, take advantage of the system, and continue to stuff their faces with crap. I agree what she said, it's a slow suicide. At least she had the guts to say it. If you can't handle the truth then that's just too bad.
The portion of her video that resonates with me, is that one shouldn't receive preferential treatment for choosing to not maintain a healthy weight
Exactly. When I see two obese people stuffing their faces as a restaurant, are probably same people complaining about their knees, back, heart, or whatever other ailments that associate with obesity. It just shows how sensitive people can be0 -
buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
That's a bunch of hogwash. It really bothers me that our society is so full of enablers. Everything is hand-holding and 'don't try too hard' and 'just go with the flow'. Seriously? It's really not hard to not be obese, even in today's society. Becoming obese is the result of one thing- overeating. To not become obese one thing must happen - to not overeat. As an adult, just make the choice to not do that one behavior. It's really not a hard thing to do. And as a parent, make the choice to teach children how not to overeat.
Everyone who claims not to know how to do that, again, it's just a matter of self-education, which in the age of the internet, is just a matter of pointing and clicking.
To say one doesn't know how to do something is just ridiculous and lazy, and to allow people to continue that behavior is enabling. It leads to a society of weak people raising more weak people, and we don't need to be that way.
This all started when we decided we were more worried about self-esteem than rewarding accomplishment and started giving everyone a medal regardless of whether they actually did anything worthy.0 -
Yep, all this political correctness sucks.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
That's a bunch of hogwash. It really bothers me that our society is so full of enablers. Everything is hand-holding and 'don't try too hard' and 'just go with the flow'. Seriously? It's really not hard to not be obese, even in today's society. Becoming obese is the result of one thing- overeating. To not become obese one thing must happen - to not overeat. As an adult, just make the choice to not do that one behavior. It's really not a hard thing to do. And as a parent, make the choice to teach children how not to overeat.
Everyone who claims not to know how to do that, again, it's just a matter of self-education, which in the age of the internet, is just a matter of pointing and clicking.
To say one doesn't know how to do something is just ridiculous and lazy, and to allow people to continue that behavior is enabling. It leads to a society of weak people raising more weak people, and we don't need to be that way.
This all started when we decided we were more worried about self-esteem than rewarding accomplishment and started giving everyone a medal regardless of whether they actually did anything worthy.
QFT0 -
Didn't sound like an exaggeration to me.
I work with people everyday that their own decisions and choices bring them consequences, some devastating. However I can work with those individuals and challenge those choices and behaviors while still maintaining dignity and respect for them and their choices. I have a fundamental belief that if one cannot do that, they should probably find another line of work. I am not a nurse, but as a social worker....I think it should still apply to that field. This nurse disagrees. Oh well. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I am just saddened that her opinion affects client care in a fat shaming way. I am sure it is more common that I would like to think, but it doesn't make it okay.
Alright so let's look at another view point: doctors. Doctors can and will tell patients directly they need to lose weight, they need to stop smoking, they need to avoid salt, whatever. And some doctors have zero, I mean ZERO bedside manner. I get that it's always nicer to have a doctor who seems at least human but the reality is that if I have an issue or need care or medical attention, I want someone who knows their *kitten*. Whether they sugar coat it to me or not is not the point - I'm not looking for a best friend, I'm looking for someone who is going to save my life. So is it ok for doctors, but not nurses, to just be straight up and honest? I highly doubt she's making fun of them or bullying them, but if she's talking to them about how their being overweight is seriously affecting their health and jeopardizing the longevity of their life - I'm totally 100% in support of it. She is coming from a stand point of concern, not only for herself but for her patient.
As a social worker, this may not be the case for you because your situations require a much more delicate approach. In the ICU it's about saving people's lives, making sure they survive the night, their organs are still working, they're getting rid of and not retaining fluid, all of that stuff. Sorry, but there's a LARGE (no pun intended lol) difference between being a social worker and a nurse in the ICU. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, I'm saying there's a large difference.
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acorsaut89 wrote: »Didn't sound like an exaggeration to me.
I work with people everyday that their own decisions and choices bring them consequences, some devastating. However I can work with those individuals and challenge those choices and behaviors while still maintaining dignity and respect for them and their choices. I have a fundamental belief that if one cannot do that, they should probably find another line of work. I am not a nurse, but as a social worker....I think it should still apply to that field. This nurse disagrees. Oh well. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I am just saddened that her opinion affects client care in a fat shaming way. I am sure it is more common that I would like to think, but it doesn't make it okay.
Alright so let's look at another view point: doctors. Doctors can and will tell patients directly they need to lose weight, they need to stop smoking, they need to avoid salt, whatever. And some doctors have zero, I mean ZERO bedside manner. I get that it's always nicer to have a doctor who seems at least human but the reality is that if I have an issue or need care or medical attention, I want someone who knows their *kitten*. Whether they sugar coat it to me or not is not the point - I'm not looking for a best friend, I'm looking for someone who is going to save my life. So is it ok for doctors, but not nurses, to just be straight up and honest? I highly doubt she's making fun of them or bullying them, but if she's talking to them about how their being overweight is seriously affecting their health and jeopardizing the longevity of their life - I'm totally 100% in support of it. She is coming from a stand point of concern, not only for herself but for her patient.
As a social worker, this may not be the case for you because your situations require a much more delicate approach. In the ICU it's about saving people's lives, making sure they survive the night, their organs are still working, they're getting rid of and not retaining fluid, all of that stuff. Sorry, but there's a LARGE (no pun intended lol) difference between being a social worker and a nurse in the ICU. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, I'm saying there's a large difference.
There's a way to be honest while still being compassionate. The way that nurse was speaking before was with absolutely zero compassion and empathy.0 -
acorsaut89 wrote: »Didn't sound like an exaggeration to me.
I work with people everyday that their own decisions and choices bring them consequences, some devastating. However I can work with those individuals and challenge those choices and behaviors while still maintaining dignity and respect for them and their choices. I have a fundamental belief that if one cannot do that, they should probably find another line of work. I am not a nurse, but as a social worker....I think it should still apply to that field. This nurse disagrees. Oh well. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I am just saddened that her opinion affects client care in a fat shaming way. I am sure it is more common that I would like to think, but it doesn't make it okay.
Alright so let's look at another view point: doctors. Doctors can and will tell patients directly they need to lose weight, they need to stop smoking, they need to avoid salt, whatever. And some doctors have zero, I mean ZERO bedside manner. I get that it's always nicer to have a doctor who seems at least human but the reality is that if I have an issue or need care or medical attention, I want someone who knows their *kitten*. Whether they sugar coat it to me or not is not the point - I'm not looking for a best friend, I'm looking for someone who is going to save my life. So is it ok for doctors, but not nurses, to just be straight up and honest? I highly doubt she's making fun of them or bullying them, but if she's talking to them about how their being overweight is seriously affecting their health and jeopardizing the longevity of their life - I'm totally 100% in support of it. She is coming from a stand point of concern, not only for herself but for her patient.
As a social worker, this may not be the case for you because your situations require a much more delicate approach. In the ICU it's about saving people's lives, making sure they survive the night, their organs are still working, they're getting rid of and not retaining fluid, all of that stuff. Sorry, but there's a LARGE (no pun intended lol) difference between being a social worker and a nurse in the ICU. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, I'm saying there's a large difference.
Unless she is a nurse practitioner, then she should not be acting like a doctor, no. Doctors go through significantly more training to have the occupational right to advise patients medically, no matter how much a nurse thinks she knows.
The ICU is about saving patients' lives, so I'm wondering why anyone thinks it's the appropriate time for a nurse to get on her soapbox with a patient. When I was in the ICU because of my ED, no doctor/nurse thought it was the appropriate time to advise me against my unhealthy bulimic behaviors. The ICU is for saving a life. Discharge instructions and post-hospitalization follow ups are for continuing medical advice.0 -
acorsaut89 wrote: »Didn't sound like an exaggeration to me.
I work with people everyday that their own decisions and choices bring them consequences, some devastating. However I can work with those individuals and challenge those choices and behaviors while still maintaining dignity and respect for them and their choices. I have a fundamental belief that if one cannot do that, they should probably find another line of work. I am not a nurse, but as a social worker....I think it should still apply to that field. This nurse disagrees. Oh well. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I am just saddened that her opinion affects client care in a fat shaming way. I am sure it is more common that I would like to think, but it doesn't make it okay.
Alright so let's look at another view point: doctors. Doctors can and will tell patients directly they need to lose weight, they need to stop smoking, they need to avoid salt, whatever. And some doctors have zero, I mean ZERO bedside manner. I get that it's always nicer to have a doctor who seems at least human but the reality is that if I have an issue or need care or medical attention, I want someone who knows their *kitten*. Whether they sugar coat it to me or not is not the point - I'm not looking for a best friend, I'm looking for someone who is going to save my life. So is it ok for doctors, but not nurses, to just be straight up and honest? I highly doubt she's making fun of them or bullying them, but if she's talking to them about how their being overweight is seriously affecting their health and jeopardizing the longevity of their life - I'm totally 100% in support of it. She is coming from a stand point of concern, not only for herself but for her patient.
As a social worker, this may not be the case for you because your situations require a much more delicate approach. In the ICU it's about saving people's lives, making sure they survive the night, their organs are still working, they're getting rid of and not retaining fluid, all of that stuff. Sorry, but there's a LARGE (no pun intended lol) difference between being a social worker and a nurse in the ICU. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, I'm saying there's a large difference.
Unless she is a nurse practitioner, then she should not be acting like a doctor, no. Doctors go through significantly more training to have the occupational right to advise patients medically, no matter how much a nurse thinks she knows.
The ICU is about saving patients' lives, so I'm wondering why anyone thinks it's the appropriate time for a nurse to get on her soapbox with a patient. When I was in the ICU because of my ED, no doctor/nurse thought it was the appropriate time to advise me against my unhealthy bulimic behaviors. The ICU is for saving a life. Discharge instructions and post-hospitalization follow ups are for continuing medical advice.
I didn't say acting like a doctor but to be "rude" to a patient would be considered unprofessional or having inappropriate bedside manner, no?
They're obviously not doctors, but they're probably still pretty concerned about it. If you went into the ICU for an ED and to get treatment that's good that they were compassionate enough to handle it appropriately but not all health care professionals approach the situation the same. Not everyone is the same, they're there to save your life. They aren't there to be your friend. It doesn't always make things easy or sunshine and rainbows, but they saved your life right and provided you with the medical care you needed to heal and recover.
The point I was trying to make is that majority of health care workers (nurses, doctors, etc) will talk from a concerned medical stand point. While a nurse is not a doctor, you are correct, they can still talk to a patient about things. And it might be mean - or come across as mean - but when it's your health it's pretty important and I personally wouldn't take offense to it if a nurse told me that I might be better off to lose a few pounds. This is something I know to be true and so her saying isn't going to hurt my feelings. I've accepted that I need to lose weight . . . people who are 400+lbs probably also know they need to lose weight. If they take offense to someone saying it, then that is unfortunate. People tell smokers all the time they shouldn't smoke, it's bad for them. Smokers know that already . . . they aren't stupid but they don't take offense to in my experience.0 -
Win for her and for those in the professional and amateur outrage industry. She got over a million views, tons of tweets, enormous airplay, and an eff-ton of hand-wringing and bemoaning of her general mean-ness.
Most of what she said was funny (because a ton of it is true). Some of it was over the top, but that's comedy for you. We're all qualified to comment on it and have legitimate opinions either way, because virtually everyone on MFP (short of the folks in the gainers section) are either obese or formerly obese.
She's not concerned about your health or weight and doesn't pretend to be a doctor (duh - she's a comedian, not a doctor or public health professional) and in my personal opinion, fat shaming works - at least for some of us.
Yes, I've skimmed some of the research which purports to prove that fat shaming isn't effective for behavior change. It looks like it's research that tends to rely inordinately on self-report (which is problematic) and completely ignores ATI effects (aptitude-treatment interactions - Google it), which explains why it's easy to find anecdotal evidence of fat shaming being effective, despite the research that says that it shouldn't be.0 -
Whether people count calories, cut carbs, or throw out half of what they're served at restaurants, maintaining or getting to a normal weight absolutely does require special effort in our society. For overweight/obese people who want to lose, it involves getting into the required motivational space, and maintaining that motivation through many internal challenges and lots of external ones (social censure, lack of time) - everything this board is full of. However many threads MFP has, that's how hard it is. Not to mention navigating the misleading information we discussed previously. We celebrate success here because it's NOT easy!buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
Why does what we do here have to be the standard, though? I'd say it's fairly normal to maintain a healthy weight if that's one's goal, and most of the people that I know who do, do not use any kind of websites or anything. They eat adequate / small quantities of food, and honestly, most of them do not regularly exercise in a gym, for instance. Some bike a lot, others maybe play a sport or go boating, maybe park at the furthest parking spot available, that sort of thing. And hmm... A lot of them I can think of, actually have foods that they will not eat. Call it food demonization, or picky eating
Anyway, I don't necessarily see their choices as "fighting" to not be obese or abnormal, but I suppose that is more of an individually drawn conclusion than it is a fact0 -
buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes, get more stuff. Just because over half the population is obese doesn't mean you have to fight not to be. That level of not taking responsibility and victimization is really pathetic. It has never been easier to not be obese.
Pathetic, eh? We all, obviously, do have to take unusual measures to counteract the effects of living in default mode in our society. Every person here knows what's involved, and you're kidding yourself if you think what we do here is normal. It's what's required to stay healthy in an environment that leads us astray, but it's not normal.
(Personally, I'm doing well, thanks, 4+ years into maintenance, just shedding a few pounds regained after injury. I know it can be done.)
That's a bunch of hogwash. It really bothers me that our society is so full of enablers. Everything is hand-holding and 'don't try too hard' and 'just go with the flow'. Seriously? It's really not hard to not be obese, even in today's society. Becoming obese is the result of one thing- overeating. To not become obese one thing must happen - to not overeat. As an adult, just make the choice to not do that one behavior. It's really not a hard thing to do. And as a parent, make the choice to teach children how not to overeat.
Everyone who claims not to know how to do that, again, it's just a matter of self-education, which in the age of the internet, is just a matter of pointing and clicking.
To say one doesn't know how to do something is just ridiculous and lazy, and to allow people to continue that behavior is enabling. It leads to a society of weak people raising more weak people, and we don't need to be that way.
This all started when we decided we were more worried about self-esteem than rewarding accomplishment and started giving everyone a medal regardless of whether they actually did anything worthy.
Access to good information is easier than it was in some ways - I think MFP's the bomb - and harder in others.
People obviously don't know what to do, or they wouldn't come here and say they're completely shocked at how many calories things have. And we wouldn't be asked what crazy diets we're on. And people wouldn't be accused of having an ED when they refuse donuts at work.
The problem isn't to do with coddling people, it's to do with an obesogenic society that is the way it is for multiple reasons.
And I originally spoke about *overweight* and obesity, not just obesity.0 -
lol oh c'mon there were parts that were actually funny and she is right "make better choices". That is why we are here isn't it? To make better choices because we didn't in the past! So you can know it, you just cant say it.
Oh I am still classed as class 2 obese by that BMI *kitten* index. lol0 -
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Yes tomatoey, pathetic is the word. Just because something is a societal norm doesn't mean you aren't f***ing up. Healthcare, access to information, and availability of cheap healthy food are all at virtually an all time high in this country. Just because we have more entertaining sedentary activities and some ridiculously unhealthy food choices doesn't make people blameless. If you didn't know that ice cream cake and the new bacon wrapped bacon, butter, cheese, and bacon sandwich were unhealthy than you aren't very bright. This is why our country is falling behind because we just sit there and play the victim and act like it's some kind of patriotic freedom to be gluttonous, lazy, and ignorant. This is not meant to be an attack on obese people, everyone has their reasons and struggles but to act like it's not their fault because of society is like saying i literally can't go to the movies without checking facebook during the show.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes tomatoey, pathetic is the word. Just because something is a societal norm doesn't mean you aren't f***ing up. Healthcare, access to information, and availability of cheap healthy food are all at virtually an all time high in this country. Just because we have more entertaining sedentary activities and some ridiculously unhealthy food choices doesn't make people blameless. If you didn't know that ice cream cake and the new bacon wrapped bacon, butter, cheese, and bacon sandwich were unhealthy than you aren't very bright. This is why our country is falling behind because we just sit there and play the victim and act like it's some kind of patriotic freedom to be gluttonous, lazy, and ignorant. This is not meant to be an attack on obese people, everyone has their reasons and struggles but to act like it's not their fault because of society is like saying i literally can't go to the movies without checking facebook during the show.
While I don't agree with everything tomatoey has posted, I do know that no one is saying that obese people have no responsibility for their condition, only that there are larger, social structures at play to consider. Society and psychology have their part in the discussion - it doesn't mean that we absolve someone of their personal responsibility, only that we acknowledge human struggle. After all, can't we better help people to get well and stay well if we understand all the factors that made them unwell? Approaching it purely from a "you did this to yourself, now pull yourself up" approach (while absolutely true) doesn't seem to help the majority.0 -
"Today you have to fight NOT to be overweight or obese" I would say that's dropping responsibility and blaming societal norms in my opinion. And in general society doesn't run a "you did this to yourself, now pull yourself up" approach anymore. We did that in the past when we had much lower obesity rates. Now we coddle people and tell them things aren't their fault.0
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buffalobill41 wrote: »"Today you have to fight NOT to be overweight or obese" I would say that's dropping responsibility and blaming societal norms in my opinion. And in general society doesn't run a "you did this to yourself, now pull yourself up" approach anymore. We did that in the past when we had much lower obesity rates. Now we coddle people and tell them things aren't their fault.
I believe I prefaced my statement with "I don't agree with everything tomatoey says." I still disagree that the quoted statement somehow absolves a person of responsibility. It says the person needs to work harder against societal norms, which I would agree with. I have a history with an ED, which I take full responsibility for, and I still have to fight against those behaviors sometimes because of certain societal norms. I don't want to get into specifics, because it's off-topic. But me saying that I am affected by others is not the same as me saying I am a victim.
And the "pull yourself up" approach is not one I've argued is used often as a whole, but it is the approach being discussed in this thread.
Again, there's a big difference between "nothing is your fault, you're just a victim" and recognizing that a person's actions/decisions can be affected by outside circumstances. They are still in control (barring a mental disorder, of course), but it helps to know what all the variables are that make up human behavior. Society is one variable. If you can educate a person (as I was educated) on how to either avoid or respond to problematic societal norms, then you can help them make better decisions. In other words, help them take responsibility.0 -
acorsaut89 wrote: »Didn't sound like an exaggeration to me.
I work with people everyday that their own decisions and choices bring them consequences, some devastating. However I can work with those individuals and challenge those choices and behaviors while still maintaining dignity and respect for them and their choices. I have a fundamental belief that if one cannot do that, they should probably find another line of work. I am not a nurse, but as a social worker....I think it should still apply to that field. This nurse disagrees. Oh well. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I am just saddened that her opinion affects client care in a fat shaming way. I am sure it is more common that I would like to think, but it doesn't make it okay.
Alright so let's look at another view point: doctors. Doctors can and will tell patients directly they need to lose weight, they need to stop smoking, they need to avoid salt, whatever. And some doctors have zero, I mean ZERO bedside manner. I get that it's always nicer to have a doctor who seems at least human but the reality is that if I have an issue or need care or medical attention, I want someone who knows their *kitten*. Whether they sugar coat it to me or not is not the point - I'm not looking for a best friend, I'm looking for someone who is going to save my life. So is it ok for doctors, but not nurses, to just be straight up and honest? I highly doubt she's making fun of them or bullying them, but if she's talking to them about how their being overweight is seriously affecting their health and jeopardizing the longevity of their life - I'm totally 100% in support of it. She is coming from a stand point of concern, not only for herself but for her patient.
As a social worker, this may not be the case for you because your situations require a much more delicate approach. In the ICU it's about saving people's lives, making sure they survive the night, their organs are still working, they're getting rid of and not retaining fluid, all of that stuff. Sorry, but there's a LARGE (no pun intended lol) difference between being a social worker and a nurse in the ICU. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, I'm saying there's a large difference.
Circumventing the forum filters to get your needed swears in, eh? That's cool.
And I don't need a friend in the slightest. I need a professional nurse who is able to give care with respect and dignity. It's the standard for which practice should be done.
Nurses and social workers aren't that different at all. Except I am learning social workers are bound by a different set of ethics which require to give care with dignity and respect.
Not sure what my needed swears are . . . but I don't have like a daily target, I just spew profanity here and there and it looks better than a bunch of asterisks in my opinion. . . thank goodness no one's quality of care is in my hands with that one.
Also - maybe nurses are not the same where you are as they are here but in my experience - and granted I don't live in a hospital but I've been to one a few times and I've had experiences with a social worker or two - there's a massive difference. Sorry but as a social worker you are not performing the same type of duties as nurse is. I never said one was less worthy or less important or less anything than the other, but you're just different.
First quote I could find to describe the field of social work [it's from wikipedia]: Social work is a professional and academic discipline that seeks to improve the quality of life and enhance wellbeing[1] of individuals, families, couples, groups, and communities through research, policy planning, community development, direct practice, crisis intervention, ensuring social welfare and security for those affected by social disadvantages such as poverty, psychosocial care to mentally and physically disabled, and raising voices against social injustice for social reforms, including social actions against violations of civil liberties and human rights.
First quote I could find about the field of nursing [also from wikipedia]: Nurses develop a plan of care, working collaboratively with physicians, therapists, the patient, the patient's family and other team members, that focuses on treating illness to improve quality of life.
So nurses treat a medical illness to improve life whereas social workers do not; they also work to enhance quality of life (I will say that) but just not in the same way. So if you want to say similar because of that, then sure. But in my experience they are just aren't the same.
Further, a nurse can be honest about something but still provide care with dignity and respect. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. I'm not saying all health care professionals follow this rule but the majority in my experience do - they can be blunt but respectful.
The type of care social workers give is way different, further you're dealing with one nurse who may or may not have made a comment that could be interpreted a number of different ways. You interpreted one way and others did another way.0 -
I believe I prefaced my statement with "I don't agree with everything tomatoey says." I still disagree that the quoted statement somehow absolves a person of responsibility. It says the person needs to work harder against societal norms, which I would agree with.
Yes, this is a sensible way to think about it, IMO.
Understanding the influences is part of figuring out how to deal with it.
People aren't fatter today because we have less self-control. We are in an environment that is not historically the norm. That doesn't mean we can't help but be fat, but some of us may have to more consciously figure out how not to give into impulses that wouldn't have been an issue at some other times or places.
(And personally I'd far rather live in this time and place, despite that tradeoff.)0 -
buffalobill41 wrote: »Yes tomatoey, pathetic is the word. Just because something is a societal norm doesn't mean you aren't f***ing up. Healthcare, access to information, and availability of cheap healthy food are all at virtually an all time high in this country. Just because we have more entertaining sedentary activities and some ridiculously unhealthy food choices doesn't make people blameless. If you didn't know that ice cream cake and the new bacon wrapped bacon, butter, cheese, and bacon sandwich were unhealthy than you aren't very bright. This is why our country is falling behind because we just sit there and play the victim and act like it's some kind of patriotic freedom to be gluttonous, lazy, and ignorant. This is not meant to be an attack on obese people, everyone has their reasons and struggles but to act like it's not their fault because of society is like saying i literally can't go to the movies without checking facebook during the show.
While I don't agree with everything tomatoey has posted, I do know that no one is saying that obese people have no responsibility for their condition, only that there are larger, social structures at play to consider. Society and psychology have their part in the discussion - it doesn't mean that we absolve someone of their personal responsibility, only that we acknowledge human struggle. After all, can't we better help people to get well and stay well if we understand all the factors that made them unwell? Approaching it purely from a "you did this to yourself, now pull yourself up" approach (while absolutely true) doesn't seem to help the majority.
More like, "you did this to yourself, so you have the power to undo it"
0 -
Yeah, i mean we pretty much agree, just a couple of the things she said kind of set me off. I just really hate blaming society to even a small degree for this or anything, people are responsible for their own actions. I'm mostly a bleeding heart liberal but that's one issue where i'm very conservative. In some ways modern society makes it easier to be obese but in virtually every practical way it's easier than ever to not be.0
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