I'm a geek: I read 2 atkins books this week.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »
This is by no means the only experiment on MSG. It had already been proven to be safe.
You said it was unethical, not immoral.
msg could be "safe" but it is well known that can be a trigger for some people
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.1991.hed3102107.x/abstract0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
Strangely, I am also non-keto (166g of carbs yesterday) and I see a totally different scenario.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
That's not what I'm seeing (I'm not keto etc - I'm actually more your WOE). I'm leaving it at that though.
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »
This is by no means the only experiment on MSG. It had already been proven to be safe.
You said it was unethical, not immoral.
msg could be "safe" but it is well known that can be a trigger for some people
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.1991.hed3102107.x/abstract
I don't see anywhere where that study was double-blinded.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »
This is by no means the only experiment on MSG. It had already been proven to be safe.
You said it was unethical, not immoral.
msg could be "safe" but it is well known that can be a trigger for some people
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.1991.hed3102107.x/abstract
I don't see anywhere where that study was double-blinded.
That's the mindset of many MFP users: peer reviewed papers are not enough rigorous for them if not double-blinded, while undocumented translators' amateur experiments are "great"...
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I also know that not everyone would benefit from a lchf just like a zone or moderation diet will not help everyone.
This I agree with. If everyone could agree on this and not insist that there's One Best Diet (which IMO seems to be promoted mainly by the keto folks, but occasionally by moderation types), we'd have a much happier forum.
I don't know if it is mostly keto folks... there's a lot less of us around. I suppose it is possible that we are both noticing the posts that bother us - posts that say our way of eating is wrong or inferior.
Numbers aside, I think most of the non-keto folks are like me -- we have a particular way we like to eat but understand that there are many different ways that people can eat in a healthy fashion, including keto. That's why I always say it can work for people and is worth experimenting with if you aren't already happy with what you are doing.
It seems to me that lately lots and lots of keto folks like to argue that that's the only way to be healthy and that people should reduce fruit and even veg and the like. Lots of drivebys along those lines lately, among other things.
I'm also not keto, and do not see the boards this way.0 -
I am now reading TNT (Targeted Nutrition Tactics) which was put out by Men's Health, and written by Jeff Volek, who was a coauthor of The Life and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living. Interesting so far.
The book focuses on a low carb to moderate carb diet, but it also has an emphasis on weight lifting a few times per week for improved health. This book really is about improving health, and weight loss is approached as a side affect of improving your health.
Life is divided into time zones:- Fat Burning Time Zone - which is all days or most days of the week (they have multiple plans from very low carb to moderate carb for different needs and wants)
- Reloading Time Zone - Days when more carbs are eaten. Optional.
- Muscle Building Time Zone - Lmited time frame around exercise when protein, and possibly carbs (depending on plan) should be eaten
It has a lower carb leaning but easily accommodates moderate carbs, and can even have higher carb days.
It made sense to me. I'd recommend this book for low carbers, moderate carbers, and carb cyclers.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »
This is by no means the only experiment on MSG. It had already been proven to be safe.
You said it was unethical, not immoral.
msg could be "safe" but it is well known that can be a trigger for some people
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1526-4610.1991.hed3102107.x/abstract
From the synopsis, that study doesn't prove what you're saying it does. They showed a MSG free diet reduced headaches. That doesn't show that MSG causes headaches. It shows foods that contain MSG are associated with headaches. That's a very different experiment.0 -
IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
This is fascinating.0 -
IdoScience wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »IdoScience wrote: »This one was a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Myth-Determine/dp/1942761325/ref=br_lf_m_497vzbcvrpng9yy_1_1_img/181-2648524-1335660?ie=UTF8&s=books
If you want to get really deep this post by researcher Denise Minger is great
http://rawfoodsos.com/2015/10/06/in-defense-of-low-fat-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/
I will look into the Low Carb Myth. I am eating LCHF to improve my health, and it has worked. The book looks like it focuses on fat loss with a higher carb diet only, and not the improvements to autoimmune diseases or arthritis - inflammation - on a LCHF diet.... Doesn't look promising to someone coming from my direction. More of a "rah-rah moderation" book.
Not really about "moderation". The author is definitely against highly processed foods. But he does dive into a lot of the dogma with low carb diets, it doesn't quite go far enough into the metabolic and hormonal disruptions around long term low carb diets.
What metabolic and hormonal disruptions?
I apologize for the long video. It is queued up to start hopefully at 13:51. Also the last 25-30 minutes the Q&A asks and talks about keto diets.
this is a presentation by an endocrinologist with 25 years of clinical experience specializing in diabetes. In this presentation she discusses how low carb diets affects your hormones and metabolism and patients developing diabetes from low carb diets who never had diabetes before. Also, that going too low in carbs is a stressor on the body(adrenals?). The biochemistry is above the layman head, but it is very eye opening seeing as her old books were based on using low carb diets. My lab result confirm a lot of what negative effects she is talking about. She says short-term low carb studies are promising but the negative effects don't manifest until a much longer timeframe. She discusses nitric oxide,cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, insulin, thyroid, adrenal fatigue etc.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm0MG_zYIdQ&t=13m51s
Some of what she said made sense to me.
A couple of years ago I was taking cortisol. I was moderate to high carb, recovering from some autoimmune issues, and my cortisol was low. I was probably at the beginning of prediabetes. Cortisol (meds)+ insulin = fat gain. I gained 20lbs in one year.
The fact that she says we can't rebuild like we could when we were younger. Makes sense.
She says cortisol will go up on a LC diet. That may not be a problem for me.
I do have insulin resistance. If I eat above 30g of carbs in one day, the next day my FBG is usually up around the prediabetic levels again. Same happens when sick. If I exercise, FBG goes down... This seems to fly in the face of what she is saying.
I can't figure out how she expects those with insulin resistance to treat themselves. We're supposed to eat everything in moderation. We're not supposed to go low carb? Moderation should work? What if it doesn't? It doesn't appear to work for me. I KNOW what my BG looks like if I eat 75+ g of carbs per meal.
I dunno. Maybe her books would make more sense for someone like me. The video didn't. I suspect she is just another diet book author though, meaning it may work for some but don't assume it is true for you.0 -
"We do not want to go into ketosis. That's about breaking down, right? To get into ketosis... in fact, what is diabetic KETOacidosis? It's not having enough insulin to keep yourself from ketosis."
I stopped watching shorty after this. I don't know what her qualifications are but I believe she's working from a faulty knowledge base and drawing incorrect conclusions.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »"We do not want to go into ketosis. That's about breaking down, right? To get into ketosis... in fact, what is diabetic KETOacidosis? It's not having enough insulin to keep yourself from ketosis."
I stopped watching shorty after this. I don't know what her qualifications are but I believe she's working from a faulty knowledge base and drawing incorrect conclusions.
According to the original poster she is an endocrinologist I believe with 25 years of experience specialising in diabetes.0 -
I have a friend who gets migraines from MSG. I believe him. He is affected by many foods. He doesn't just get migraines when he eats out at a Chinese place. It's not in his head just because MSG doesn't bother all or even most.
Non sequitur. In fact, that's exactly why the MSG is probably not causing it - if he gets migraines from lots of thing it's probably those things instead of the MSG.
Not that either of us have any evidence, but this is a really bad reason to believe in the MSG lie.
It took him years to figure out what was wrong. Trial and error to find his triggers. Kind of like how it took me 38 years to discover that I had celiac disease. Who would have thought that the innocent PBJ sandwich would cause arthritis, hair loss, fatigue, migraines and stomach aches for days?
It is pretty egocentric of you to assume you know what affects his health. There are a few common additives that get him. He rarely eats out now, and cannot even eat at most people's homes. If he avoids them he is fine. I doubt he cured himself with the power of his mind.
I was told it was all in my head too, starting from childhood. Just because the doctor didn't figure it out doesn't mean it isn't real.
It made your hair fall out? Hmm I have been suspecting things but this is great to know.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »"We do not want to go into ketosis. That's about breaking down, right? To get into ketosis... in fact, what is diabetic KETOacidosis? It's not having enough insulin to keep yourself from ketosis."
I stopped watching shorty after this. I don't know what her qualifications are but I believe she's working from a faulty knowledge base and drawing incorrect conclusions.
According to the original poster she is an endocrinologist I believe with 25 years of experience specialising in diabetes.
Well no wonder I'm not impressed... 25 years of prescribing high carb diets to diabetics. Do you know what's known to reverse diabetes? Bariatric surgery, very low calorie diets/fasting -- ketosis is going to be involved in all of those.
The current diabetic recommendations leave something to be desired, IMO.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »"We do not want to go into ketosis. That's about breaking down, right? To get into ketosis... in fact, what is diabetic KETOacidosis? It's not having enough insulin to keep yourself from ketosis."
I stopped watching shorty after this. I don't know what her qualifications are but I believe she's working from a faulty knowledge base and drawing incorrect conclusions.
According to the original poster she is an endocrinologist I believe with 25 years of experience specialising in diabetes.
Well no wonder I'm not impressed... 25 years of prescribing high carb diets to diabetics. Do you know what's known to reverse diabetes? Bariatric surgery, very low calorie diets/fasting -- ketosis is going to be involved in all of those.
The current diabetic recommendations leave something to be desired, IMO.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I googled her and she doesnt seem to be exactly a high carb advocate:
http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/schwarzbein-principle.html
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Gianfranco_R wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »"We do not want to go into ketosis. That's about breaking down, right? To get into ketosis... in fact, what is diabetic KETOacidosis? It's not having enough insulin to keep yourself from ketosis."
I stopped watching shorty after this. I don't know what her qualifications are but I believe she's working from a faulty knowledge base and drawing incorrect conclusions.
According to the original poster she is an endocrinologist I believe with 25 years of experience specialising in diabetes.
Well no wonder I'm not impressed... 25 years of prescribing high carb diets to diabetics. Do you know what's known to reverse diabetes? Bariatric surgery, very low calorie diets/fasting -- ketosis is going to be involved in all of those.
The current diabetic recommendations leave something to be desired, IMO.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I googled her and she doesnt seem to be exactly a high carb advocate:
http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/schwarzbein-principle.html
"By the numbers: In terms of numbers, an inactive person can have up to 15g of carbohydrates at every meal. The more active you are, the more you get - she maintains that carbohydrates are an important source of glycogen for muscles.There are no calorie restrictions."
Thank you for the link, Gianfranco. It's really quite interesting that she prescribes a ketogenic level of carbohydrate but believes ultimately it's a dangerous/unhealthy state? Either or I think from what little I've listened to she's fundamentally wrong on several points -- in my opinion, of course, so you can take that for what it's worth.
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IdoScience wrote: »Why did you leave high starch/carb diets for reversing diabetes off your list? <snip>
Because I haven't heard of any research showing high starch diets reverse diabetes and I haven't read anything I find compelling from a raw food/vegan/vegetarian point of view -- besides the standard eat whole foods type of thing.
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