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Is the amount of easy access processed food harming dieters health?
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I did say 'overweight ', not 'obese'.
I stick with what I said. Thin and eating solely overly processed foods is not as healthy as being overweight and eating whole mimimally processed food. Don't even inquire about science, I haven't got it.
This is changing the terms of the discussion. SOLELY overly processed foods (and I assume defining frozen vegetables as not overly processed, even if in a pre-made or convenience meal) in essence says that it's bad for your health not to eat vegetables.
Sure, someone who never eats vegetables or any other significant plant foods (I have no idea what you actually mean by "overly processed") and is thin might be, on average, less healthy than someone who does and is merely overweight, since the health risks for being overweight but not obese (especially for an older person) aren't so strong, and there are positive correlations with eating lots of vegetables and other plant foods and negative ones for eating certain kinds of highly processed foods (lots of processed meats, sugary soda, etc.), but that's not really meaningful. The question is whether the "processing" is somehow unhealthy independent of the consequences for weight.
Is it healthier to be obese but eat a "clean" diet or to be of normal weight but eat a lot of highly processed foods, along a variety of other foods, including vegetables? Both are equally active to take that out of the equation (as I think it's important and that at some point being obese is likely to be negatively correlated with being adequately active).0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I did say 'overweight ', not 'obese'.
I stick with what I said. Thin and eating solely overly processed foods is not as healthy as being overweight and eating whole mimimally processed food. Don't even inquire about science, I haven't got it.
I would agree with this with the qualifier of moderately or less overweight and are active based solely on experience. I have many friends my age (50's or older) who have never been overweight but have eaten a poor diet of convenience foods and get little exercise who are now suffering health problems linked to diet/activity like high BP, hyperlipidemia, T2 diabetes, insulin resistance, heart or vascular disease, etc. While other friends that eat more whole foods and homemade meals and stay active have avoided or suffered less of these diseases even if they are overweight. But I think activity level is as a big a part of it as diet, maybe more.
Good point.0 -
It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people eating ultra processed foods over the long run of a whole life time?
So your entire basis on whether a person is healthy or not is whether or not they wear shorts and are active, even if they are overweight? And how do you know that the thin, frail elderly people ate processed foods while the overweight retired shorts wearing bikers eat whole foods? Lastly, is this observation of yours maybe influenced by the actual age of the people? On one hand you reference retirees, which I would assume in their 50s-60s, and on the other hand you reference elderly people, what is that, 70s-80s? A lot can happen with a person's health in 2-3 decades....0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I know the main aim of dieting for most of us is to lose weight but what could processed food be doing to our organs? I'm honestly interested in whether being thin but eating these sorts of foods has a detrimental effect on health?
I don't think there is a simple answer to that question. It depends on the over balance of foods, genetics, medical history/problems, etc.
I think that in general, being very overweight/obese while eating whole/minimally processed foods is more likely to cause health problems than being thin and eating a lot of processed foods.
I think being overweight and eating whole, minimally processed foods would be healthier than being thin and eating a lot of highly processed foods.
Then you don't understand obesity and the associated comorbidities.
I din't say 'obese' I said ' overweight'.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I know the main aim of dieting for most of us is to lose weight but what could processed food be doing to our organs? I'm honestly interested in whether being thin but eating these sorts of foods has a detrimental effect on health?
I don't think there is a simple answer to that question. It depends on the over balance of foods, genetics, medical history/problems, etc.
I think that in general, being very overweight/obese while eating whole/minimally processed foods is more likely to cause health problems than being thin and eating a lot of processed foods.
I think being overweight and eating whole, minimally processed foods would be healthier than being thin and eating a lot of highly processed foods.
Then you don't understand obesity and the associated comorbidities.
I din't say 'obese' I said ' overweight'.
Read up on "MONW" (metabolically obese, normal weight). It's quite possible to suffer the comorbidities of obesity at any weight range.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
When you wrote "thin," I read it as "Slender, within a healthy weight range." If that wasn't what you meant, then I apologize.
If you're saying that underweight people who eat processed foods are less healthy than overweight people who eat mostly unprocessed foods, I don't have the data to know if that is true or not. I don't think you do either -- I don't see how you can tell how these people you are observing in your community are eating.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
When you wrote "thin," I read it as "Slender, within a healthy weight range."
This is how I read it too, especially given the context.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people eating ultra processed foods over the long run of a whole life time?
So your entire basis on whether a person is healthy or not is whether or not they wear shorts and are active, even if they are overweight? And how do you know that the thin, frail elderly people ate processed foods while the overweight retired shorts wearing bikers eat whole foods? Lastly, is this observation of yours maybe influenced by the actual age of the people? On one hand you reference retirees, which I would assume in their 50s-60s, and on the other hand you reference elderly people, what is that, 70s-80s? A lot can happen with a person's health in 2-3 decades....
The statement seems to be that people who are underweight and visibly frail and unhealthy are less healthy than people (who may be younger) who are overweight and active.
If you're comparing any groups of people, I think the one that can move around freely will tend to look much healthier than those who can't. How an observer can tell from this what they're eating regularly . . . I don't know.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
When you wrote "thin," I read it as "Slender, within a healthy weight range."
This is how I read it too, especially given the context.
To add to that, this is the post of Need2 that you originally responded to:I think that in general, being very overweight/obese while eating whole/minimally processed foods is more likely to cause health problems than being thin and eating a lot of processed foods.0 -
Well the people I know, see and observe in my apartment block and out an about are mostly from age 65 upward. They are frnch, a lot of dutch people, german, portugese. They all eat well from what i see shopping wise and smell and hear them cooking wise. They are wearing shorts even when over weight and they look good, as in muscular legs, walk a lot and some jog and i just wanted to say ove rweight elderly people seem to be faring better than thin ones.
So I stick with what I said, I think thin people who eat only ultra processed foods are apt to be less healthy in the long run than people who are over weight and eat whole foods that arent vey processed. I stick with it cause I think these people ar good examples. Even the really eldely ones!0 -
Well the people I know, see and observe in my apartment block and out an about are mostly from age 65 upward. They are frnch, a lot of dutch people, german, portugese. They all eat well from what i see shopping wise and smell and hear them cooking wise. They are wearing shorts even when over weight and they look good, as in muscular legs, walk a lot and some jog and i just wanted to say ove rweight elderly people seem to be faring better than thin ones.
So I stick with what I said, I think thin people who eat only ultra processed foods are apt to be less healthy in the long run than people who are over weight and eat whole foods that arent vey processed. I stick with it cause I think these people ar good examples. Even the really eldely ones!
I live in a large apartment building and, unless we're at the outdoor grill area at the same time, I have no idea what my neighbors are eating or how much of their diet is made up of processed foods. Maybe it's different in the US?
Being older and underweight *is* associated with health issues. I don't think anybody is defending being underweight as a path to health. But what about those who aren't thin, but are at a healthy weight and eat processed foods? Do any of those people live in your building?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
When you wrote "thin," I read it as "Slender, within a healthy weight range."
This is how I read it too, especially given the context.
To add to that, this is the post of Need2 that you originally responded to:I think that in general, being very overweight/obese while eating whole/minimally processed foods is more likely to cause health problems than being thin and eating a lot of processed foods.
Yes, I know. I took exception to throwing "obese"in with "over weight" so I said positively that I think overweight people who eat less processed foods are healthier than thin people who eat ultra processed foods. I especially believe that to be true from what I have observed in europe here. It might not be true in the U.S. I homestly wouldn't know.
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Well the people I know, see and observe in my apartment block and out an about are mostly from age 65 upward. They are frnch, a lot of dutch people, german, portugese. They all eat well from what i see shopping wise and smell and hear them cooking wise. They are wearing shorts even when over weight and they look good, as in muscular legs, walk a lot and some jog and i just wanted to say ove rweight elderly people seem to be faring better than thin ones.
So I stick with what I said, I think thin people who eat only ultra processed foods are apt to be less healthy in the long run than people who are over weight and eat whole foods that arent vey processed. I stick with it cause I think these people ar good examples. Even the really eldely ones!
And you know exactly what these people are eating....how?
She smells and hears it, of course. And some of them wear shorts.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »It must be where I live and my own experience. I'm living in a community in south portugal where there are tons of retired people and pretty much all of them are 'overweight'. They look very healthy, there are people wearing shorts and biking and walking and its amazing. Maybe 'thin', as was said above, is healthy for young people, but I'm seeing that for older people its the 'overweight' crowd that are very active and the thinner elderly are just not looking very active or healthy as the over weght ones are. I see weakness, canes, wheel chairs and unable to walkwell in elderly people who are thin underweight. I dunno, do you have science to prove me wrong? Would you say overweight, not obese, people are being that much more unhealthy than ' thin ' people over the long run of a whole life time?
Someone "looking" healthy isn't the same as being healthy -- my grandfather looked healthy until right before he died, despite having multiple health problems. He stayed active too.
And how do you know what any of these people are regularly eating? If you're judging this opinion off the people you pass on the street and how they look, I don't understand how you can know which of the people are eating mostly unprocessed and whole foods and which aren't.
And if by "thin," you actually mean "underweight," that's a whole different conversation. Being underweight is also associated with health issues and nobody here is saying that the underweight are going to be healthier than an overweight person (I don't have that information).
You were the one who made a definite statement, so you are the one who need to indicate why it is true. One doesn't have to prove you wrong to challenge it -- you were the one who made the statement. I have no idea if it is true or not -- but I know you don't know either, so I can't tell why you said it.
What do you mean by thin? I mean thin, frail, as when older people are thin.
When you wrote "thin," I read it as "Slender, within a healthy weight range."
This is how I read it too, especially given the context.
To add to that, this is the post of Need2 that you originally responded to:I think that in general, being very overweight/obese while eating whole/minimally processed foods is more likely to cause health problems than being thin and eating a lot of processed foods.
Yes, I know. I took exception to throwing "obese"in with "over weight" so I said positively that I think overweight people who eat less processed foods are healthier than thin people who eat ultra processed foods. I especially believe that to be true from what I have observed in europe here. It might not be true in the U.S. I homestly wouldn't know.
Your conclusions aren't based on the European population. They're based on your observations of your neighbors. We don't even know if it is true for Europe (assuming your method of "I know what they're cooking and eating" is a valid method of data collection, which I doubt).0 -
Well the people I know, see and observe in my apartment block and out an about are mostly from age 65 upward. They are frnch, a lot of dutch people, german, portugese. They all eat well from what i see shopping wise and smell and hear them cooking wise. They are wearing shorts even when over weight and they look good, as in muscular legs, walk a lot and some jog and i just wanted to say ove rweight elderly people seem to be faring better than thin ones.
So I stick with what I said, I think thin people who eat only ultra processed foods are apt to be less healthy in the long run than people who are over weight and eat whole foods that arent vey processed. I stick with it cause I think these people ar good examples. Even the really eldely ones!
I still don't understand how you know what the elderly frail people are eating. You see the healthy ones shopping and smell their foods. What about the others? Also, I would not expect a lot of ultra processed foods to be available in a country like Portugal... what kinds of foods have you observed them eating?0 -
Its a really small town, we don't really have much in the way of processed foods here, it lags behind english speaking countries. Basically we eat from a fresh fish market and fresh veg and fruit. There are farmed meat and dairly too. About as processed as it gets is frozen veg and baked goods. We are a close comunity. Mock if you want.
Its a compliment to me. Thank you.
Everybody knows what others are eating, windows are open its good weather and the walls are thin and we see each other at the market buying food.0 -
Well there are the clam diggers, and even though they are skinny, as they are out there digging clams and eat clams and not mch else, they don't look so good. Now there is a case of minimally processed food, but its not looking like they eat anything else and so maybe its not as straight forward as I said.0
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