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If it's all CICO - why can't you outrun a bad diet?
Replies
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midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Wickedfaery73 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Wickedfaery73 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't think I could eat 3000 calories in cheeseburgers, so there's that.
In my teens and early 20s, I could outrun a bad diet, in the sense that I never thought about what I ate and yet did not gain weight.
By my 30s, I could not do that -- I needed to at least be a little mindful, even at my most active.Also, might I suggest we next debate "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" or possibly "a stitch in time saves 9."
Heh, this.
3000 calories would be approximately 6.5 McDoubles
So you are agreeing with me? ;-)
I don't know I bet you probably could, physically at least, eat 6.5 Mcdoubles in a day. LOL They are tiny little things ( to me at least
) I could eat 3 at a time
I dislike McD's burgers, so I doubt it. Don't know about the McDouble as I don't think it existed yet last time I was at a McD's, but research demonstrates that it is .75 the size of a Quarter Pounder (which I can't imagine eating more than one of at a time), so I doubt I could without making a real effort and feeling sick and overstuffed, even over the course of a day. And, of course, that contradicts the idea that people would just consume these calories quickly and without thinking (as with the "it would take me 4 hours to burn off 3000 calories and then I'd eat that back with a cheeseburger" claim I was responding too).
I seriously doubt that thoughtless eating plus a cheeseburger would result in me normally eating anywhere near 3000 calories in a day, and I'd never think to order multiple cheeseburgers. I just don't know why people hypothesize such odd and unusual behavior in these discussions.
Most people gain weight relatively gradually over time, after all.
Appetite and hunger are individual differences, which are ignored by such a simple statement.
Personally, I've never actually eaten more than 4 McDoubles at a single time, but I'm sure I could have had more if I didn't have anything else along with it.
Well, my original statement was that I doubted *I* could eat 3000 calories in cheeseburgers (in what was originally posed as a meal immediately after a huge workout). I didn't say no one could. (I also could manage to eat 3000 calories in a day, I'm sure, although I don't think that's the calorie count I'd hit just by including a cheeseburger.)
The question, though, is whether these extreme scenarios justify the claim that "no one can outrun a bad diet." Let's not forget this all important point! ;-)
I also am trying to find the highest cal widely-available cheeseburger and am failing. Here are a couple that are 1350.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/double-down-by-numbers-unhealthiest/
You see 3K calories a day as extreme, and I don't think that is even close to extreme. Tell me 30K is extreme and I can agree as it is something I can't do every single day... only once in awhile. Again, the original statement we are debating completely ignores individual differences.
ETA: This made me hungry for McDouble's, so for lunch, I just got 2 Mcdouble's with no buns (I'm eating low carb). I'm still just as hungry as before I ate them, but if I had gotten 4 instead of 2, I would only have 22 calories left for dinner tonight.
I have a binging problem myself, but I have problems imagining a 30k day. Can you walk through am example of what you eat in a 30k calorie day?
I would have to go back and find it, but the highest I've logged was 27K I think, back in 2014. If I remember correctly, there were 2 dozen donuts, 4 lbs. (pre-cooked weight) of spaghetti, meatballs, sauce and parmesean cheese. Pizza, cheese sticks, brownies, cookies, and 2 home-made cakes with frosting. I also believe there was a carton of ice cream and a bag or 2 of potato chips and dip at some point for snacks. I think if I wasn't logging, I would have eaten more because I get to where I say I'm not restricting, but I know I really not eating all I want as I see that number of calories.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I would venture to say that the average person eating a cheeseburger is probably not making it, but rather getting it from a fast flood restaurant.
Wow, seriously? I would venture to guess most people grill outside all summer, and make their own cheeseburgers quite often....
Not with Five Guys or Wendy's around. If I'm grilling it will be slabs of beef, fish or lamb. Love a tasty burger though. As for calories, 3000 is just an average day at maintenance.
Wait. What thread is this again?
I don't have either of those near me.
I've never even ate at a Five Guys and I've traveled to 48 U.S. States and have literally driven right past them (though usually that is in the middle of the night and they are closed). I definitely need to find one of those places.
Honestly, though, I don't have an outside grill. But I do have one of those counter-top grills (George Foreman knock-off) and cook hamburgers on it regularly.
I personally don't get what's so great about Five Guys, though they do have interesting fries. I prefer In-n-Out, hands down.0 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I would venture to say that the average person eating a cheeseburger is probably not making it, but rather getting it from a fast flood restaurant.
Wow, seriously? I would venture to guess most people grill outside all summer, and make their own cheeseburgers quite often....
Not with Five Guys or Wendy's around. If I'm grilling it will be slabs of beef, fish or lamb. Love a tasty burger though. As for calories, 3000 is just an average day at maintenance.
Wait. What thread is this again?
Ha ha! This, along with the Fruit thread, has been subverted to a discussion of delicious meat product that really, we don't want to outrun. Our work here is done!
I'm a homemade, Steak n' Shake, or Red Robin kinda burger girl myself.
There was a local burger place (huge variety of interesting burgers) not far from me that I tried a few months ago and was looking forward to trying again (Spritzburger). I was going to link their website, which is how I discovered they lost their lease. So sad.
Also, I am definitely making a burger tonight.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I would venture to say that the average person eating a cheeseburger is probably not making it, but rather getting it from a fast flood restaurant.
Wow, seriously? I would venture to guess most people grill outside all summer, and make their own cheeseburgers quite often....
Not with Five Guys or Wendy's around. If I'm grilling it will be slabs of beef, fish or lamb. Love a tasty burger though. As for calories, 3000 is just an average day at maintenance.
Wait. What thread is this again?
Ha ha! This, along with the Fruit thread, has been subverted to a discussion of delicious meat product that really, we don't want to outrun. Our work here is done!
I'm a homemade, Steak n' Shake, or Red Robin kinda burger girl myself.
There was a local burger place (huge variety of interesting burgers) not far from me that I tried a few months ago and was looking forward to trying again (Spritzburger). I was going to link their website, which is how I discovered they lost their lease. So sad.
Also, I am definitely making a burger tonight.
There is a local place that has won awards for best in state (in various categories) 2 years in a row now.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I would venture to say that the average person eating a cheeseburger is probably not making it, but rather getting it from a fast flood restaurant.
Wow, seriously? I would venture to guess most people grill outside all summer, and make their own cheeseburgers quite often....
Not with Five Guys or Wendy's around. If I'm grilling it will be slabs of beef, fish or lamb. Love a tasty burger though. As for calories, 3000 is just an average day at maintenance.
Wait. What thread is this again?
Ha ha! This, along with the Fruit thread, has been subverted to a discussion of delicious meat product that really, we don't want to outrun. Our work here is done!
I'm a homemade, Steak n' Shake, or Red Robin kinda burger girl myself.
There was a local burger place (huge variety of interesting burgers) not far from me that I tried a few months ago and was looking forward to trying again (Spritzburger). I was going to link their website, which is how I discovered they lost their lease. So sad.
Also, I am definitely making a burger tonight.
That's tomorrow night. I'd move it to tonight but I am making my own hamburger buns and the dough needs to sit overnight.1 -
Former model wolfs down Wendy's 3000 calorie TRex Burger (MY Wendy's doesn't have this!)
http://rare.us/story/watch-this-model-wolf-down-a-nine-patty-3000-calorie-burger-in-under-four-minutes/
ETA: I guess its been banned LOL0 -
This is purely for debate purposes - if weight loss is purely calories in and calories out, why can't you 'outrun a bad diet' - surely if you run enough to burn off the calories of a bad dietary intake, you can for all intents and purposes outrun a bad diet?
If a person is in a caloric deficit surely they will lose irrespective of what their food intake is.
begin.....
I've always just taken it to mean that exercise alone won't help you lose weight if you aren't paying attention to how much you eat. Most people who that phrase applies to are people who think that they can lose weight just by exercising and still eat any amount of food.4 -
This is purely for debate purposes - if weight loss is purely calories in and calories out, why can't you 'outrun a bad diet' - surely if you run enough to burn off the calories of a bad dietary intake, you can for all intents and purposes outrun a bad diet?
If a person is in a caloric deficit surely they will lose irrespective of what their food intake is.
begin.....
When people say this, all they're saying is that just because you workout doesn't mean you can eat all the foods...which is what a lot of people think. I see people all of the time in my gym kicking *kitten* and taking names...but their bodies really haven't changed at all...they're still not lean...because they eat too much...thus they aren't "outrunning their diets."3 -
In for burger talk.
Wendy's Baconator puts any McD's burger to shame.
I like Five Guys ok but not sure they're worth the hype.
I've never had In 'n Out.
Burger King really is the king of fast food burgers.
Red Robin is totally awesome.
Also love me some Whataburger (pronounced "waterburger")
I NEVER think of McD's when someone mentions "cheeseburger." I think of a big, beefy, hot burger with cheddar cheese and bacon.
I grill awesome burgers at home.
I'm totally happy eating home grilled burgers (with cheese) with a fork and no bun when cutting.
I once wrapped ground beef around cheese and grilled a reverse burger. The cheese oozed out the sides and it was fantastic.
Oh, and "you can't outrun a bad diet" is a trendy phrase but isn't universally true. It depends on how bad the diet and how far you can run.11 -
Somehow when I go to a really great burger place, I end up with either a seared Ahi tuna burger, or a fried chicken sandwich. I'm starting to think I fail at hamburger even though I really enjoy a good one.
It's just that I can make a really good one at home, but I'm not likely to spend the outrageous grocery store price for sushi grade fish and I've never deep fried chicken before (I have flash-fried bite sized chunks for a Korean dish).
Back to topic - I'm also of the opinion that bad diet means either or both 1) eating more calories than meets your goals; 2) not getting adequate nutrition.
Exercise won't fix 2) regardless. 1) you can fix if you're not eating too much over, though I imagine you risk over training if you do it every day (no rest days).
The statement is a simplification, and is obviously not correct 100% of the time.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »In for burger talk.
Wendy's Baconator puts any McD's burger to shame.
I like Five Guys ok but not sure they're worth the hype.
I've never had In 'n Out.
Burger King really is the king of fast food burgers.
Red Robin is totally awesome.
Also love me some Whataburger (pronounced "waterburger")
I NEVER think of McD's when someone mentions "cheeseburger." I think of a big, beefy, hot burger with cheddar cheese and bacon.
I grill awesome burgers at home.
I'm totally happy eating home grilled burgers (with cheese) with a fork and no bun when cutting.
I once wrapped ground beef around cheese and grilled a reverse burger. The cheese oozed out the sides and it was fantastic.
Oh, and "you can't outrun a bad diet" is a trendy phrase but isn't universally true. It depends on how bad the diet and how far you can run.
Carlos, I think your awesome post is even more awesome when read in a poetry-slam voice. You really can't do burgers justice with haiku.
Delicate haiku:
No flame-seared juices dripping,
No beefy substance.
Also, how have we missed a discussion of Hardee's Angus burgers, which are insane?
And, now I'm definitely having a burger tonight, too.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »In for burger talk.
Also love me some Whataburger (pronounced "waterburger")
.
.
I once wrapped ground beef around cheese and grilled a reverse burger. The cheese oozed out the sides and it was fantastic.
+1,000
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Carlos_421 wrote: »I once wrapped ground beef around cheese and grilled a reverse burger. The cheese oozed out the sides and it was fantastic.
We call those 'Juicy Lucys'
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When I hear the phrase "you can't outrun a bad diet" I don't necessarily think it is talking in terms of weight. Cico will help you reach or maintain a goal weight. Being at your goal weight may not necessarily be 'healthy'. if you don't eat enough fruit, veg, healthy fats etc you may be deficient in certain vitamins and minerals. Being 130lbs at 5ft 4" may be a good weight but not much good for you if you have health problems. Being healthy and being a good weight are 2 very different things.2
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Ok what if you eat at maintenance everyday, but burn off 500 calories through exercise to lose 1lb a week. Would this be classed as outrunning a "bad" diet?1
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Christine_72 wrote: »Ok what if you eat at maintenance everyday, but burn off 500 calories through exercise to lose 1lb a week. Would this be classed as outrunning a "bad" diet?
Most would call this "doing it right."3 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Ok what if you eat at maintenance everyday, but burn off 500 calories through exercise to lose 1lb a week. Would this be classed as outrunning a "bad" diet?
Most would call this "doing it right."
The reason I asked is because this is exactly what I'm doing, started last Monday, so we shall see what happens. One of the reasons I started this other than being able to eat more is because I want to see if my fitbit and TDEE is accurate once and for all!!0 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Ok what if you eat at maintenance everyday, but burn off 500 calories through exercise to lose 1lb a week. Would this be classed as outrunning a "bad" diet?
That's pretty much what I've done most spring/summer/autumns ... and I've dropped anywhere from about 10-30 lbs. Then I deliberately put some of that weight back on over winter. And repeat.
The only cautionary thing I would suggest is that there is no agreement on how many calories we burn doing various activities. Most calculators over-estimate the number of calories burned. But if one of the reasons you're doing this is to determine if your fitbit is accurate, then yes, go with what your fitbit says ... and do this for at least a couple months because weight loss can be a bit funny. Weight tends to drop in fits and starts rather than how we think it should. But a trend over 2 or 3 or 4 months will show a more accurate picture.
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Thanks @Machka9 appreciate your reply.
I'm up .5kgs since starting this. But I attribute that to higher than usual sodium days and more food overall. I'm hoping
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Christine_72 wrote: »Thanks @Machka9 appreciate your reply.
I'm up .5kgs since starting this. But I attribute that to higher than usual sodium days and more food overall. I'm hoping
The sodium will do that. I had a small roasted pumpkin risotto at a restaurant yesterday ... with feta ... and I was 0.5 kg higher this morning too.
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The expression "you can't outrun a bad diet" exists because for most people, you can't. I would define a "bad diet" as one that is calorie-wise, higher than the individual's needs as well as lacking in multiple nutrients.
Most people don't have the time to exercise enough to burn off calories that are excess to their day-to-day requirements.
Most people will develop health complications from a nutrient-poor diet.
Most people find it very easy to eat 1000 calories of pizza (I know I can eat 2000+ in one sitting), but very hard to do 1000 (legitimate) calories of cardio.
There is the outliers, the athlete, the bodybuilder, the 16 year old male with a body growing like crazy and the associated calorie burn. However, for the average person - it's not possible. Well, at least not possible long-term.4 -
The expression "you can't outrun a bad diet" exists because for most people, you can't. I would define a "bad diet" as one that is calorie-wise, higher than the individual's needs as well as lacking in multiple nutrients.
Most people don't have the time to exercise enough to burn off calories that are excess to their day-to-day requirements.
Most people will develop health complications from a nutrient-poor diet.
Most people find it very easy to eat 1000 calories of pizza (I know I can eat 2000+ in one sitting), but very hard to do 1000 (legitimate) calories of cardio.
There is the outliers, the athlete, the bodybuilder, the 16 year old male with a body growing like crazy and the associated calorie burn. However, for the average person - it's not possible. Well, at least not possible long-term.
Truth. Nice thoughrs.0 -
Well you do burn at least a thousand calories just going about your normal day. A lot of the posts stating how difficult it is to burn off X000 calories seem to be ignoring that. Personally i dislike the statement in the title - I think it tends to be limiting to individuals who could utilize exercise as their primary weight control tool. Depending on "how bad" my diet is, a bit of exercise just might be exactly what I need to get my weight to where I want it.
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Well you do burn at least a thousand calories just going about your normal day. A lot of the posts stating how difficult it is to burn off X000 calories seem to be ignoring that. Personally i dislike the statement in the title - I think it tends to be limiting to individuals who could utilize exercise as their primary weight control tool. Depending on "how bad" my diet is, a bit of exercise just might be exactly what I need to get my weight to where I want it.
+1
Personally, I love being active, so it's not a hardship when I want to use exercise as my primary weight control tool ... and even now when I'm paying a bit more attention to what I eat than I usually do, exercise is still a very important weight control tool.
I'll also add this ...
My husband works a physically active job. For 8 hours a day, he's moving ... and then we go for walks in the evening and cycling on the weekends. Throughout 2014, he lost about 25 kg without making any changes to his diet. He continued to eat the same things we had always eaten. His weight loss tool was all exercise ... and he's just an average person. (Well, maybe a little bit better than average but that could be my bias.
)
I started with MFP at the beginning of 2015, and lost my weight by the end of October 2015 ... but because we're not cycling as much as we would like, I had to count calories and watch what I eat, in addition to the exercise I do, in order to lose the same amount of weight.0 -
Well you do burn at least a thousand calories just going about your normal day. A lot of the posts stating how difficult it is to burn off X000 calories seem to be ignoring that. Personally i dislike the statement in the title - I think it tends to be limiting to individuals who could utilize exercise as their primary weight control tool. Depending on "how bad" my diet is, a bit of exercise just might be exactly what I need to get my weight to where I want it.
+1
Personally, I love being active, so it's not a hardship when I want to use exercise as my primary weight control tool ... and even now when I'm paying a bit more attention to what I eat than I usually do, exercise is still a very important weight control tool.
I'll also add this ...
My husband works a physically active job. For 8 hours a day, he's moving ... and then we go for walks in the evening and cycling on the weekends. Throughout 2014, he lost about 25 kg without making any changes to his diet. He continued to eat the same things we had always eaten. His weight loss tool was all exercise ... and he's just an average person. (Well, maybe a little bit better than average but that could be my bias. )
I started with MFP at the beginning of 2015, and lost my weight by the end of October 2015 ... but because we're not cycling as much as we would like, I had to count calories and watch what I eat, in addition to the exercise I do, in order to lose the same amount of weight.
You my friend understand the difference between why and how...
Bravo! 1 -
My husband also works a very physically active job. He put on his weight working that job and eating an amount of calories greatly in excess of what he required to maintain his weight. And he has a generous daily calorie allowance due to his activity level, so that he was consuming an impressively bad diet.
Could he lose weight by continuing to eat in excess of his requirements and adding in additional exercise to create a calorie deficit? I think his ability to do so would be limited by his energy supply and need for sleep (there are unfortunately only so many hours available in a day). There simply aren't enough hours in the day for him to burn off enough calories to support his terrible former eating habits and lose weight. And, understandably, after working long physically demanding days, incorporating more intense activity to create that calorie deficit in a shorter amount of time probably isn't realistic and would likely result in injuries.
Sure, we incorporate some moderate activity, particularly on the weekends, and I'm sure it helps to burn off a few hundred calories. But he was overeating by significantly more than just a few hundred calories each day, so he is losing weight by eliminating those excess calories plus a few hundred extra to create his deficit.
For those who are able to lose weight by just adding in a bit of exercise, that is wonderful and you should just keep on doing you. I would find that to be a plausible solution, particularly for people who are slightly overweight due to eating a moderate calorie surplus and quite inactive. However, I think the idea that one can't outrun a bad diet stands as a general principle despite the existence of some exceptions.2 -
My husband also works a very physically active job. He put on his weight working that job and eating an amount of calories greatly in excess of what he required to maintain his weight. And he has a generous daily calorie allowance due to his activity level, so that he was consuming an impressively bad diet.
Could he lose weight by continuing to eat in excess of his requirements and adding in additional exercise to create a calorie deficit? I think his ability to do so would be limited by his energy supply and need for sleep (there are unfortunately only so many hours available in a day). There simply aren't enough hours in the day for him to burn off enough calories to support his terrible former eating habits and lose weight. And, understandably, after working long physically demanding days, incorporating more intense activity to create that calorie deficit in a shorter amount of time probably isn't realistic and would likely result in injuries.
Sure, we incorporate some moderate activity, particularly on the weekends, and I'm sure it helps to burn off a few hundred calories. But he was overeating by significantly more than just a few hundred calories each day, so he is losing weight by eliminating those excess calories plus a few hundred extra to create his deficit.
For those who are able to lose weight by just adding in a bit of exercise, that is wonderful and you should just keep on doing you. I would find that to be a plausible solution, particularly for people who are slightly overweight due to eating a moderate calorie surplus and quite inactive. However, I think the idea that one can't outrun a bad diet stands as a general principle despite the existence of some exceptions.
At the end of the day it all comes down to energy balance (the why). Cutting calories, adding exercise or both (the how) is a matter of personal preference and or circumstances...1 -
My husband also works a very physically active job. He put on his weight working that job and eating an amount of calories greatly in excess of what he required to maintain his weight. And he has a generous daily calorie allowance due to his activity level, so that he was consuming an impressively bad diet.
Could he lose weight by continuing to eat in excess of his requirements and adding in additional exercise to create a calorie deficit? I think his ability to do so would be limited by his energy supply and need for sleep (there are unfortunately only so many hours available in a day). There simply aren't enough hours in the day for him to burn off enough calories to support his terrible former eating habits and lose weight. And, understandably, after working long physically demanding days, incorporating more intense activity to create that calorie deficit in a shorter amount of time probably isn't realistic and would likely result in injuries.
Sure, we incorporate some moderate activity, particularly on the weekends, and I'm sure it helps to burn off a few hundred calories. But he was overeating by significantly more than just a few hundred calories each day, so he is losing weight by eliminating those excess calories plus a few hundred extra to create his deficit.
For those who are able to lose weight by just adding in a bit of exercise, that is wonderful and you should just keep on doing you. I would find that to be a plausible solution, particularly for people who are slightly overweight due to eating a moderate calorie surplus and quite inactive. However, I think the idea that one can't outrun a bad diet stands as a general principle despite the existence of some exceptions.
To be candid, in my experience the general principle has been used to justify weirdo diets and woo. No you can't just eat normal food, you have to eat this weird *kitten*. So that's why I tend to hate it. Should people trying to lose weight be mindful of calories consumed? Yep, it would be extremely helpful1 -
Well you do burn at least a thousand calories just going about your normal day. A lot of the posts stating how difficult it is to burn off X000 calories seem to be ignoring that. Personally i dislike the statement in the title - I think it tends to be limiting to individuals who could utilize exercise as their primary weight control tool. Depending on "how bad" my diet is, a bit of exercise just might be exactly what I need to get my weight to where I want it.
No one's claiming that you can't burn 1000 calories in a couple hours of intense exercise. But I often see stuff like:
'Mowing the lawn 45min. 750 calories....'
Wow, really? (ok, maybe with a push mower).
I don't burn more than 400 cal in an hour run according to my HRM, but yes, I know that other people can burn much more. (and I would die if I ran more than an hour).
But I see so often people post that they can't lose weight, and then post 2000-3000 calorie burns for walking, some aerobics, etc.
1 -
Remember the time in the debate forum when we pitted the validity of CICO against a cliche?
#goodtimes2
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