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Is dairy good or bad?

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Replies

  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    Seriously, what I am supposed to eat with Oreos, if not milk?

    Pfft...
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.

    I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.

    ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.

    But a PITA sandwich video on YouTube with absolutely no references showed them doing that. Clearly that is how every single farm is run. Did you YouTube your childhood farm? I didn't think so.

    *sigh* you caught me. My recollection is probably way off too. :confounded:

    There was likely another barn (maybe it was in the basement of the red one, and there was a secret access tunnel that we weren't ever told about). In the dank cellar barn is where my parents committed all their atrocities. Fortunately, they didn't YouTube that either.
  • TheCrawlingChaos
    TheCrawlingChaos Posts: 462 Member
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    Seriously, what I am supposed to eat with Oreos, if not milk?

    Pfft...

    IKR?
  • TheCrawlingChaos
    TheCrawlingChaos Posts: 462 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    Is almond milk truly a replacement for most dairy? The protein is lower, adding vitamin D to it isn't necessary, calcium is so-so depending on manufacture.

    I don't need it for protein. I get enough protein from other sources. Calcium I get from the greens I eat. So really for me it's just a culinary replacement. I guess if someone is not eating the same as me it can seem milk is more imperative, but I was just jumping on the anecdote train with my own :P.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.
  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
  • TheCrawlingChaos
    TheCrawlingChaos Posts: 462 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    sentipede wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    Is almond milk truly a replacement for most dairy? The protein is lower, adding vitamin D to it isn't necessary, calcium is so-so depending on manufacture.

    I don't need it for protein. I get enough protein from other sources. Calcium I get from the greens I eat. So really for me it's just a culinary replacement. I guess if someone is not eating the same as me it can seem milk is more imperative, but I was just jumping on the anecdote train with my own :P.

    So by glossing over it, is it correct that you're not getting the D?

    THE D, no. Vitamin D yes, but from suppliments or fortified whatever, like tofu. I'm not arguing for or against people consuming dairy. For me personally i chose not to, but im not going to jump up and down and yell at others ESPECIALLY when ive not done the research myself on the nutritional side.

    Like i said, i have seen studies that support both sides but i never bothered to look into them in any details to see if they were *kitten* or not. And frankly, I don't have the knowledge in that field to decipher that on my own anyway so I'd likely be looking to professionals to dumb it down for me if I really wanted to understand.

    I really just came to point out the absurdity of knocking someone else down for an anecdote while serving up another in its place is all :).
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    I was too lazy to do more than refer back to a prior discussion, but enjoyed your explanation.

    Northern and western European ancestry here (British Isles and Sweden), so no surprise I do well with dairy. ;-)
  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.

    Peaches n Cream Barbie was one of the greatest ever. I loved mine so much!
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.
  • Ruatine
    Ruatine Posts: 3,424 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.

    I 100% agree with this. 1) There is no way I'd meet my protein goals without dairy. 2) Many recipes are not at all the same (nutritionally or in taste) without using real milk.
  • TheCrawlingChaos
    TheCrawlingChaos Posts: 462 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.

    Yup, and that's why I said it was personal and not forcing anything on anyone. Tastes can definitely change if you change your diet, but again, that's you. You do you. I'm not here to tell you what to do! Haha
  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.

    A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.

    In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.

    Ooh...alliteration. Beowulfian, almost. I bet Beowulf drank some milk along with his mead.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.

    A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.

    In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.

    Yup, it is the broad sweeping generalizations that make it frustrating. My anecdote doesn't state that these things never happen, but does prove that it doesn't happen everywhere.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    sentipede wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    sentipede wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.

    Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.

    While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.

    The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.

    A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.

    In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.

    Yup, it is the broad sweeping generalizations that make it frustrating. My anecdote doesn't state that these things never happen, but does prove that it doesn't happen everywhere.

    It does until you go back and time and YouTube your childhood. PITA sandwich has YouTube videos.

    Oh *babysloth* I left my time machine in my pants pocket when I washed them last. I need to rewire it before I can fix this cluster*babysloth* of inevidence.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.

    I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.

    ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.

    2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.

    Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    edited August 2016
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.

    Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.


    The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
    and these...
    3696749922_757807e9d6_z.jpg


    Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.

    Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.


    The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
    and these...
    3696749922_757807e9d6_z.jpg


    Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.

    Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.

    I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.

    ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.

    2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.

    Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.

    On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.

    Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.

    I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.

    ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.

    2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.

    Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.

    On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.

    Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.

    That's why I was asking -- a claim of universal good treatment seems as absurd as a claim of universal bad treatment.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    BillMcKay1 wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    rankinsect wrote: »
    salembambi wrote: »
    bad for you

    & especially for the calf and mother cows

    Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.

    Totally wrong.
    Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.

    Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.

    The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.

    I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.

    ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.

    2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.

    Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.

    On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.

    Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.

    That's why I was asking -- a claim of universal good treatment seems as absurd as a claim of universal bad treatment.

    Absolutely! It's the extreme ends of the argument that I take exception with. There is a whole range of grey between the two ends.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    edited August 2016
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.

    Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.


    The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
    and these...
    3696749922_757807e9d6_z.jpg


    Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.

    Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?

    Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    nutmegoreo wrote: »
    jmbmilholland wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.

    You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.
    Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.

    No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.
    I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?

    Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.

    You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.

    It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs. :)

    I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.

    You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.

    Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids. :)

    I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.

    Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.


    The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
    and these...
    3696749922_757807e9d6_z.jpg


    Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.

    Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?

    Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.

    I ate so much growing up and never had to worry about my weight. In fact some people though I had an eating disorder, and others asked if I was a dancer. Nope, just hard work mucking stalls along with all the other farm activities. I started gaining when I moved to the city.

    Again, thank you for sharing these memories. :smile:
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