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Is dairy good or bad?
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Seriously, what I am supposed to eat with Oreos, if not milk?
Pfft...3 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
But a PITA sandwich video on YouTube with absolutely no references showed them doing that. Clearly that is how every single farm is run. Did you YouTube your childhood farm? I didn't think so.
*sigh* you caught me. My recollection is probably way off too.
There was likely another barn (maybe it was in the basement of the red one, and there was a secret access tunnel that we weren't ever told about). In the dank cellar barn is where my parents committed all their atrocities. Fortunately, they didn't YouTube that either.3 -
cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.6 -
I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.0 -
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TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
Is almond milk truly a replacement for most dairy? The protein is lower, adding vitamin D to it isn't necessary, calcium is so-so depending on manufacture.
I don't need it for protein. I get enough protein from other sources. Calcium I get from the greens I eat. So really for me it's just a culinary replacement. I guess if someone is not eating the same as me it can seem milk is more imperative, but I was just jumping on the anecdote train with my own :P.0 -
cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant. Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't. I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item? Personally I feel like that's my body telling me to stop. So many people forgot to listen to their bodies thought it's just sad. A lot of people actually let a computer program and application developers tell them when they should eat instead of trying to figure out if their actually hungry or not
Rather than asking *myself* why millions of people are lactose intolerant, I asked science, specifically genetics. Interestingly, your musings here aren't entirely incorrect, but more along the line of the hazy explanation my 7 year old would provide when asked about the unique preponderance of lactose tolerance among British, Scandinavian, and other northern European populations ("simply adapt...out of survival"), how it helped them survive a harsh climate and genetically out-compete individuals with less-suitable genetic adaptations ("Others don't."), and the subsequent dispersal of the genome across at least seven millennia, while still leaving "so many millions [who are] lactose intolerant" (aka, two-thirds of the world population). You might find the following to be helpful:
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471
And yes, anyone who has dysentary-esque explosions from their posterior should probably listen to their body and stop drinking milk. It leaves more for those of us with Viking-Celt-Teutonic ancestry and a 90% tolerance rate.
On the question of calves being separated immediately from their mothers, it is actually less stressful for both the cow and calf if the separation happens immediately. The cow rapidly forgets, and the calf doesn't know any different, as opposed to weaning after a month or two, where the stress and grief can last for days for both parties. I am an occasional visitor to both a conventional dairy farm (where the cows enjoy a particularly cushy life, including self-selecting milking, deep sand beds, automated manure clean-up, and fans, massage and misting machines), and a 100% grass-fed raw-milk operation where the cows greatly enjoy being on pasture for most of the year. It doesn't stop most from becoming hamburger at some point in their lives, but we all eventually become hamburger anyway, even the apex predators.11 -
TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.4 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.9 -
TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
Is almond milk truly a replacement for most dairy? The protein is lower, adding vitamin D to it isn't necessary, calcium is so-so depending on manufacture.
I don't need it for protein. I get enough protein from other sources. Calcium I get from the greens I eat. So really for me it's just a culinary replacement. I guess if someone is not eating the same as me it can seem milk is more imperative, but I was just jumping on the anecdote train with my own :P.
So by glossing over it, is it correct that you're not getting the D?
THE D, no. Vitamin D yes, but from suppliments or fortified whatever, like tofu. I'm not arguing for or against people consuming dairy. For me personally i chose not to, but im not going to jump up and down and yell at others ESPECIALLY when ive not done the research myself on the nutritional side.
Like i said, i have seen studies that support both sides but i never bothered to look into them in any details to see if they were *kitten* or not. And frankly, I don't have the knowledge in that field to decipher that on my own anyway so I'd likely be looking to professionals to dumb it down for me if I really wanted to understand.
I really just came to point out the absurdity of knocking someone else down for an anecdote while serving up another in its place is all. 0 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
I was too lazy to do more than refer back to a prior discussion, but enjoyed your explanation.
Northern and western European ancestry here (British Isles and Sweden), so no surprise I do well with dairy. ;-)2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.1 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Peaches n Cream Barbie was one of the greatest ever. I loved mine so much!3 -
TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.
I 100% agree with this. 1) There is no way I'd meet my protein goals without dairy. 2) Many recipes are not at all the same (nutritionally or in taste) without using real milk.1 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
That's not really a fact for everyone. Almond water tastes revolting to me and mashed potatoes aren't mashed potatoes unless they have milk and butter. Dairy is a staple in my diet and giving it up is not an option. People choose their battles, and just like I chose to have wooden furniture despite of deforestation I choose to continue eating dairy and animal products.
Yup, and that's why I said it was personal and not forcing anything on anyone. Tastes can definitely change if you change your diet, but again, that's you. You do you. I'm not here to tell you what to do! Haha0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.
A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.
In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.
Ooh...alliteration. Beowulfian, almost. I bet Beowulf drank some milk along with his mead.
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nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.6
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