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Is dairy good or bad?
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nutmegoreo wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.
A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.
In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.
Yup, it is the broad sweeping generalizations that make it frustrating. My anecdote doesn't state that these things never happen, but does prove that it doesn't happen everywhere.2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »I'm not sure you can point to someone's claim and say it's invalid because it's anecdotal and then provide your own anecdote as a counter point.
Pointing out that ethicacy doesn't say anything about the nutritional value was solid enough.
While I can't speak to the validity to either side I've seen studies that support both that it's good and that it's bad. The ethics part and the fact that it's super easy to do without, especially with some of the replacement options available (I like almond milk way better than cow milk), make it easy for me to avoid dairy.
The point is simply that not all dairy cows are treated the way it was described. I'm not saying that these things don't happen. They do, but not all places everywhere. I don't mind anecdotes, so long as they aren't being used as a generalization.
A million experiments cannot prove me right, but a single one can prove me wrong.
In such instances, an anecdote is evidence against a universal proclamation. The way it was stated - "Totally wrong" - implied that the following description of bovine bashing is bountiful beyond belief.
Yup, it is the broad sweeping generalizations that make it frustrating. My anecdote doesn't state that these things never happen, but does prove that it doesn't happen everywhere.
It does until you go back and time and YouTube your childhood. PITA sandwich has YouTube videos.
Oh *babysloth* I left my time machine in my pants pocket when I washed them last. I need to rewire it before I can fix this cluster*babysloth* of inevidence.2 -
BillMcKay1 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.
Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.2 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.
Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.
On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.
Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.2 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.
Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.
On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.
Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.
That's why I was asking -- a claim of universal good treatment seems as absurd as a claim of universal bad treatment.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.
Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.
On a strictly business level, the better you treat your tools/employees (depending on whether you see your cows as people or machines), the better results you are going to have. That includes keeping them well-fed, clean, calm and healthy, and if a cow is these things, she is likely to be happy, kind of like a fat lady sitting on a couch watching TV. The commercial dairy cows I described above are really, really comfortable, happy cows, even though I would prefer that they had access to pasture (although it is questionable whether milk production would be increased by their enjoyment of nature). Still, I wish I could buy milk directly from this family farm because I am impressed with their operation and would like to support their business.
Regrettably, there are lots of bad business people out there who do not care for their tools/employees yet still manage to squeeze a buck out of them through assorted modes of exploitation. Then you have the question of farm or slaughterhouse workers who come from a culture where it is an enjoyable sport to torture and torment animals, and industrial-size slaughterhouses that take things to another circle of hell entirely. No one can make the claim of universal good treatement, because there are a lot of people who suck.
That's why I was asking -- a claim of universal good treatment seems as absurd as a claim of universal bad treatment.
Absolutely! It's the extreme ends of the argument that I take exception with. There is a whole range of grey between the two ends.1 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.
I ate so much growing up and never had to worry about my weight. In fact some people though I had an eating disorder, and others asked if I was a dancer. Nope, just hard work mucking stalls along with all the other farm activities. I started gaining when I moved to the city.
Again, thank you for sharing these memories. 1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.
The older I get, the more I realize that things that come from the land are the real treasure, and not the chunk of painted plastic mass-produced (possibly) by a prison slave. It makes me feel a little better about toting home a crap-ton of rocks that my kids collected on vacation this past week. 0 -
jmbmilholland wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »jmbmilholland wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »You have to ask yourself why so many millions of people are lactose intolerant.
You realize we know the answer to this, right? I even gave you a link in a prior discussion that explained it.Some people just simply adapt to digesting the sugar enzymes contained in milk out of survival. Others don't.
No, that is not how it works. Some people are born with lactase persistence and some are not. So far as I can tell, I was. I drank milk as a kid, no issues. Stopped drinking it in my teens and didn't drink it other than a little in coffee for years and started again around 30, no issues -- in fact, I felt better including it, although I improved my overall diet at that time so hard to attribute it to the milk. Stopped drinking milk again, continued lots of other dairy (cottage cheese, cheese, yogurt), no issues.I wonder about things like this... like if something is giving you heart burn would you just take a pill and continue to eat the item?
Personally, probably not, although my dad loves spicy foods and eats them even when they seem to disagree with him. This has zero, nada, nil, no bearing on dairy for many people, however.
You may want to think that everyone naturally has problems with dairy (why, I dunno), but that's false.
It figures that Lemurcat has already gone back in time and provided a link in a previous discussion by the time I manage to type out my paragraphs.
I guess some of us grew up playing with the "Science is easy" Barbie and others got stuck with the "Science is hard!" Barbie.
You had a Barbie? I had a "let's see what you can make of this" stick and a "what is the composition of this" rock.
Well, I had several Barbies, including the crown jewel of my collection, Peaches n' Cream Barbie, who liked to ride Prancer, but I didn't have a freakin' BARN or a bunch of freakin' BABY COWS! Feh. Spoiled rich kids.
I did have climbing trees and a crick and several neighboring farms--Herefords and Arabians and a Guernsey milk cow--to bum off of, however. Those were the most fun.
Rich! It's even better than that. We had chickens and pigs and geese and goats and a horse too! Ah, the fun we had. I don't know why my brother still talks to me. I may have told him to go hiss at the geese and then laughed gleefully as he ran across the yard with five geese chasing him. But I never had a Barbie.
The best of both worlds for me! I had the barbies and the geese
and these...
Since we are talking cows, I remember how my grandmother used to wake up really early to milk the cows then I would walk them to the pasture about 3 miles away and leave them there where everyone in the village paid this guy who took care of all the cattle and made sure to lead the herd to the best pastures around the area. The cows then would come home on their own in the evening to be milked again, but on most days someone would still go to meet them and walk with them home. We cleaned them when it was needed and cleaned after them, carried water from the well for them, and took great care of them. Now if there was some hidden dungeon where our dairy cows were tortured in secret I might have been too young to know.
Oh, thank you for sharing this! What wonderful memories! Those look like fun. Is that corn husk?
Yes! Those are corn husks. My grandparents lived on a large farm and we had huge corn fields. We visited them in the summer for 2-3 months every year to help with the harvest and various other farm stuff. Now that I think of it, I always came back much thinner from working all day long and active play jumping on hay stacks, climbing trees and swimming in the nearby river. My mom still goes to help every year (the farm is much smaller now), but due to the nature of my job and my physical limitations (I can't sit on a plane for 4+ hours) I haven't visited for the last 10 or so years.
The older I get, the more I realize that things that come from the land are the real treasure, and not the chunk of painted plastic mass-produced (possibly) by a prison slave. It makes me feel a little better about toting home a crap-ton of rocks that my kids collected on vacation this past week.
Give them some paint and some stick on eyes. They can make pet rocks. My nieces and nephew had a great time doing that! The simplest of things can be so joyous.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »cushman5279 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »salembambi wrote: »bad for you
& especially for the calf and mother cows
Those cows would be in a lot of pain if they were unmilked. Dairy cows are upset with you if you fail to milk them on schedule.
Totally wrong.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and the moment they give birth the baby calf is ripped away before it can even walk or open it's eyes. The babies are put into cages (some) for veal and the mother cows are milked, for their milk. The entire process is painful and unethical. But yeah... keep listening to the multi-billion dollar dairy industry when they tell you milk does a body good.
Oh, and momma cows are also upset when their babies are taken away from them.
The words Ethical farming and slaughter just don't make sense.
I grew up on a dairy farm. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED on our farm. None of the cows were artificially inseminated. The calves drank from their mothers until they were ready to be weaned. The calves were well cared for and were either added to the heard, or sold at market once they were older. It is absolutely possible to make choices that don't support the practices you are talking about. But to be honest, when someone comes in with the type of approach as you are using here, I actually want to eat all the cows and drink all the milk.
ETA: and yes, failing to milk the cows was painful for them.
2nded. Grew up in a dairy community. Worked on dairy farms as a teen. On the farms I worked on and every one I ever visited in our community, the cows were treated very well. Happy cows give more milk. Unhappy cows go dry.
Are you claiming that there is no cow mistreatment in commercial dairies? I can easily believe that there are farmers out there who do the best (as they perceive it) by the cows they use for milk. But to say that unhappy cows don't produce milk seems like a claim that cows are universally treated well in commercial dairies and I'm having trouble believing that.
I live in the middle of the prairies, cattle country. When my teenage daughter was targeted with PETA literature and vowed off bacon (lasted a week), I contacted the provincial Agriculture department and got the other side of the story.
Believe it or not, well treated animals are healthier, rarely need antibiotics (expensive), and produce better. The wealthy farmer is the one who cares for the livestock.
4 -
I eat Greek yogurt everyday, so for me, good!0
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I like diary. It's good for me.0
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Cheese can be highly addictive and is not very healthy at all. Fat-free, low calorie cheeses can be a great source of protein, but better sources are available. I do like cottage cheese with sunflower seeds. Everything in BMW: Balance, Moderation, and a Wealth of Variety is key. It gets you where you want to go in style. Greek yogurt or Icelandic Skyr are ideal dairy protein sources and probiotics from them provide many advantages. Skim Milk in small amounts doesn't hurt, especially in a protein shake. I also take plenty of Calcium and Vitamin D. I could abolish dairy from my lifestyle, but enjoy it too much.0
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Good.
A well balanced diet is good.
Moderation and portion control.0 -
Thalie5000 wrote: »Cheese can be highly addictive and is not very healthy at all.
No. Just no.2 -
Thalie5000 wrote: »Cheese can be highly addictive and is not very healthy at all. Fat-free, low calorie cheeses can be a great source of protein, but better sources are available. I do like cottage cheese with sunflower seeds. Everything in BMW: Balance, Moderation, and a Wealth of Variety is key. It gets you where you want to go in style. Greek yogurt or Icelandic Skyr are ideal dairy protein sources and probiotics from them provide many advantages. Skim Milk in small amounts doesn't hurt, especially in a protein shake. I also take plenty of Calcium and Vitamin D. I could abolish dairy from my lifestyle, but enjoy it too much.
Fat free cheese tastes like sadness. And no, it is not addictive.6 -
Thalie5000 wrote: »Cheese can be highly addictive and is not very healthy at all. Fat-free, low calorie cheeses can be a great source of protein, but better sources are available. I do like cottage cheese with sunflower seeds. Everything in BMW: Balance, Moderation, and a Wealth of Variety is key. It gets you where you want to go in style. Greek yogurt or Icelandic Skyr are ideal dairy protein sources and probiotics from them provide many advantages. Skim Milk in small amounts doesn't hurt, especially in a protein shake. I also take plenty of Calcium and Vitamin D. I could abolish dairy from my lifestyle, but enjoy it too much.
Fat free cheese tastes like sadness. And no, it is not addictive.
It doesn't even melt in the microwave...5
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