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Do Vegan diets for children really need to be outlawed?

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  • trixie5059
    trixie5059 Posts: 45 Member
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    Being Vegan or not Vegan is not the issue here.....both are fine if there is no neglect on the part of the parent. There are so many products available in most supermarkets today. I feel the couple in Alberta neglected their child, with their own problems. My son is Vegan, and going to compete in body building to show that it can be done being Vegan. I am so proud of him......but I cannot be Vegan myself. I hope he can change some of the stereo-types with his competing.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    edited August 2016
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    trixie5059 wrote: »
    Being Vegan or not Vegan is not the issue here.....both are fine if there is no neglect on the part of the parent. There are so many products available in most supermarkets today. I feel the couple in Alberta neglected their child, with their own problems. My son is Vegan, and going to compete in body building to show that it can be done being Vegan. I am so proud of him......but I cannot be Vegan myself. I hope he can change some of the stereo-types with his competing.

    There have been Vegan bodybuilders and powerlifters for a long time. It's not likely that one more is going to change anything. The biggest problem surrounding it, is that most often, Vegans swear that they can compete with their meateating counterparts in strength sports, but then often just go off and form their own leagues instead of actually competing. It's rare that you see one actually bothering to enter one of the mainstream BB or PL comps, and when they do, the results are rarely pretty. And then their supporters make excuses and assumptions like "clearly everyone but the Vegan is on roids, so of course he can't win, abloobloobloo."

    ETA: and so no one can accuse me of moving the goalposts later, my real issue with it (and it's the same argument I had with someone on here years ago) is that there is not a single world record holding Vegan in any strength sport, period. And no, Baboumian's silly *kitten* beer keg lift doesn't count. I'm talking about competitive strength sports, not sideshow gags.
  • aquablue_1111
    aquablue_1111 Posts: 40 Member
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    TheLegendaryBrandonHarris wrote: »
    Looks like there might be a need for honesty coupled with tactfulness in regards to dealing with kids...especially broaching the subject with their parents.
    Is the child in question honestly at risk of malnutrition or obesity or some other condition?
    If so, what is a tactful, appropriate, and effective way to address this risk?

    The adults (parents, teachers, healthcare professionals) need to be partners.

    +1

  • tomteboda
    tomteboda Posts: 2,171 Member
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    FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »
    It's only pointing out that 1) the infant growth charts are based on formula fed babies (not breastfed, and THEREFORE NOT APPLICABLE). and 2) the child growth charts are based on the Average American diet (therefore, NOT APPLICABLE TO VEGAN CHILDREN).

    This argument doesn't really help you in your quest to promote veganism. Nourishment leads to good growth regardless of the culture. You can see the profound effect of good nourishment in countries around the world.. and the effect of malnourishment. Well-nourished children, regardless of their way of eating, grow faster and bigger than malnourished ones. This should really be obvious.

    That said, I think it's a parents' prerogative to feed their children in the manner they see fit. Unless the child is obviously malnourished, it's really no one else's business.
  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 5,948 Member
    edited August 2016
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    MissTattoo wrote: »
    I don't think your diet has anything to do with height of your children. It's genetics. My 9 year old has always been the tallest baby/toddler/child. She's 5'2 while the rest of her 4th grade class is under 4'7. I'm 5'11. Her dad is 6'7. My sister is 5'11. My dad was 6'5. My aunt is 6'2. My first cousins (on my dad's side) are 6'2+ (female and male) We're just tall. She was going to be tall regardless if I breastfed or not or if she ate meat or just veggies.

    I don't think it should be outlawed, but I do think people need to be educated. You can't feed a newborn just water and liquefied carrots. As long as your child isn't starved, feed them whatever works for you.

    I think what she is saying is her child is growing optimally in spite of the vegan diet, in other words, the diet has not helped, hurt or hindered her genetic potential to this point. She is getting her nutrients (which is really all that matters) and is thriving...
  • DetroitDarin
    DetroitDarin Posts: 955 Member
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    Friggin UK gov't needs an overhaul. travesty that this kinda thing is even considered.


    Question for vegans and parents of vegans...if a vegan mom nurses her child, the child is not 'vegan' right? Not until the kid goes on food?
  • born_of_fire74
    born_of_fire74 Posts: 776 Member
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    DetroitDarin wrote: »
    Friggin UK gov't needs an overhaul. travesty that this kinda thing is even considered.


    Question for vegans and parents of vegans...if a vegan mom nurses her child, the child is not 'vegan' right? Not until the kid goes on food?

    HA! That is an interesting question.

    Note, though, this is happening in Italy not the UK.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited August 2016
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    chunky_pinup wrote: »
    I was saying my child's health, growth and thriving status had not been hindered by her vegan diet, which is what the article claimed vegan diets do to children.

    No, the article didn't make any such claims. It talked about an Italian politician who seemed to think that a vegan diet was inherently problematic, and a law that may or may not outlaw vegan diets for young children. That was unclear to me, as the reporting wasn't great, and the actual issue seemed to be a bad and inadequate vegan diet followed in a particular case and the law seemed possibly to be about denying a child essential nutrients like B12, not "animal products" or serving a vegan diet alone. That's why I asked if anyone had the text of the proposed law or could read the Italian sources discussing it.

    Here are relevant bits:
    Elvira Savino, of centre-right party Forza Italia, has proposed legislation under which parents who provide children aged 16 and under with a "diet lacking essential elements for an healthy growth" face up to two years of prison.

    So does it define what these "essential elements" are or how to determine them? Because as others have pointed out, a properly supplemented vegan diet does not lack essential elements.
    Ms Savino writes that vegan diets leave children potentially lacking in iron, zinc and B12, which can lead to neurological problems and anaemia, reports Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

    Note: this is the politician, not the viewpoint of the newspaper/article.

    It's also not clear if the law, vs. the one politician's motivation, would encompass all vegan diets. I'd also love an actual quotation, as there is a big difference between saying "some vegan diets leave a child lacking in..." vs. "vegan diets leave a child potentially lacking.." yet I can see that getting easily messed up in the translation and paraphrasing.

    The article goes on to claim: "Any parent forcing a vegan diet on a child aged three or younger would face at least two years of prison." This is the most ridiculous part of it, IMO, but I would need to know the text of the legislation to comment meaningfully, as I see newspapers report inaccurately the details of proposed laws in English often enough, so am disinclined to trust completely here.
    The proposed legislation follows a number of high-profile cases in which children, some younger than three, malnourished on account of a poorly-constructed vegan diet imposed on them by their parents have been removed from their care.

    As I noted above, there have been some prosecutions in North America for similar things.
  • chunky_pinup
    chunky_pinup Posts: 758 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    chunky_pinup wrote: »
    I was saying my child's health, growth and thriving status had not been hindered by her vegan diet, which is what the article claimed vegan diets do to children.

    No, it actually didn't. It talked about an Italian politician who seemed to think that a vegan diet was inherently problematic, but the article didn't say that to my reading. And the actual issue seemed to be a bad and inadequate vegan diet followed in a particular case and the law seemed possibly to be about denying a child essential nutrients like B12, not "animal products" or serving a vegan diet alone. That's why I asked if anyone had the text of the proposed law or could read the Italian sources discussing it.

    Quoted from the article:

    “Ms Savino writes that vegan diets leave children potentially lacking in iron, zinc and B12, which can lead to neurological problems and anaemia, reports Italian newspaper La Repubblica.”

    “Any parent forcing a vegan diet on a child aged three or younger would face at least two years of prison.”

    Yes, there were claims that a vegan diet *can* lead to children lacking in essential nutrients. However, you can lack in essential nutrients on ANY diet (vitamins would not be sold in every market if this weren’t the case). I completely agree that there are wackjobs out there who should be jailed for starving their kids into malnutrition, or denying them basic medical care in lieu of woo…but it is wrong to specifically target one dietary choice when, if done properly, can meet nutritional goals for anyone of any age – just like any other diet.

    I suppose I should have previously said “the politician in the article claimed” and not “the article claimed”.

    I just don't feel like my husband and I deserve jail time because my child eats a vegan diet. Plain and simple.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    edited August 2016
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    Given the wording (the adequate nutrition part), I think we're far more likely to see parents in the slammer for feeding their kids something closer to SAD, than a Vegan diet. Though, as Lemur pointed out, one would need to see the wording in the actual legislation, and not a bunch of political posturing/bad reporting,
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    I had already edited and covered all of that above, and explained why I think it's poor reporting and we don't know the text of the law. More significantly, I also think there's a huge distinction between "the article said" and "a politician said." If the NY Times reports that "Mr. Trump suggested that Mexico should pay for a wall on the US border," it would not be accurate to claim that "the NY Times says that we need a wall on the US-Mexico border."

    No one in this discussion is arguing that you should go to jail. I think you realize that, right?
  • MudstainSally
    MudstainSally Posts: 571 Member
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    TheCrawlingChaos wrote: »
    Not unless you also outlaw the mountain dew and skittles diet, just hot dogs diet, and any other ridiculous thing you could feed your kids. would you even enforce that? At least you wouldn't be able to proactively. If the child is in danger, something should definitely be done, but that wouldn't come out until a doctor's visit where the child may show deficiencies.

    The parents should be held accountable for what they subject the child to, but it shouldn't matter what you call the diet they feed the kid, if the screw the kid up and refuse doctors advice then take the kids away because obviously they don't know what they're doing.

    I don't have kids so I don't know how the whole taking care of another human is supposed to go, but I'd like to think I'd be up the *kitten* of his/her doctor to make sure I'm not ruining the kid by doing anything wrong. Even though I myself eat a plant-based diet, I'd still consult a kids doctor as to what a mini human ought to be eating.

    I'm not a vegan, but this statement is on point. You don't regulate things like this. Of course a doctor or someone should step in with any case that is a determent to a child. Undernourished children on a vegan diet, or undernourished because they are being fed mountain dew in a bottle.

    The law should only step in when there is abuse and neglect and its a very fine line sometimes. It can be hard to judge.

    Just because something is not how you would raise your child does not make it wrong.
  • been285
    been285 Posts: 99 Member
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    Do Vegan diets for children really need to be outlawed?
    That's not the governments mandate.
    We don't outlaw religious beliefs.
    I think the whole " harm no animal" belief, while not a church, qualifies as much as " thou shall not kill ".
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    been285 wrote: »
    Do Vegan diets for children really need to be outlawed?
    That's not the governments mandate.
    We don't outlaw religious beliefs.
    I think the whole " harm no animal" belief, while not a church, qualifies as much as " thou shall not kill ".

    Keep in mind, we're also not talking about the US here. I am no expert on Italian politics, but claiming that any foreign nation's government mandate doesn't include something, might be reaching a bit, depending upon the nation. If you're Italian, consider my foot in my mouth though.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
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    I'm not convinced that a vegan diet is automatically going to result in malnutrition, but if a child is not adequately fed with appropriate nutrition, then caretakers should be held liable. This is true with a vegan or other diet.

    Having said that, a clear law specifically addressing nutrition for children won't pass in the U.S. After all, we are willing to accept measles outbreaks in order to protect parents' religious beliefs.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
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    lipton-tea-city-of-animals.jpg
  • Christine_72
    Christine_72 Posts: 16,049 Member
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    What about obese kids, is this not a form of child abuse too? I would rather the government go after these parents, as well as the undernourished neglected kiddos.

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