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Do Vegan diets for children really need to be outlawed?
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chunky_pinup wrote: »chunky_pinup wrote: »I would certainly hope not! My vegan 22-month old is taller than 4 and 5 year olds, eats like a champ, and her doctor thinks she's absolutely thriving and wouldn't change a thing. I think feeding a vegan diet to children gets a bad rap because you hear of parents restricting their childs diet to the point of starvation/malnutrition, which can happen on ANY way of eating...we make sure our child is getting enough of all her nutrients, and she will eat nearly anything we put in front of her...animal products aside.
For the record, I'm vegan and my husband is about as far from vegan as you can be. We both have a dairy allergy and our child does too, so dairy is off the table. However, we have tried giving her meat and eggs, and they are some of the ONLY foods she flat out refuses. We still offer them when my husband is eating them, but she'd rather devour his quinoa and broccoli. Which is fine by us, we just make sure her nutritional needs are met. If she EVER wants to eat animal products, I will have no problem with that, but my point is, she is FAR from missing out on anything she needs on a vegan diet.
you realize the bolded part has nothing to do with diet, right?
The reason they want to outlaw the dietary choice for children is because of recent incidences of death due to malnutrition. She wouldn't be 3.5 feet tall and thriving if she was malnourished, so yes, it does have to do with diet. Would she be as tall and thriving on a different diet? Probably. The point was that she is NOT malnourished and SUFFERING because of a vegan diet. "failure to thrive" is a medical dx that is very commonly associated with poor nutritional health. "You do realize the bolded part has nothing to do with diet?" No, but I do realize that you are clearly not an expert.
a non-vegan child can be properly nourished.
The things you are noticing with your child are based on genetics and not whether or not said child is eating vegan.1 -
chunky_pinup wrote: »chunky_pinup wrote: »I would certainly hope not! My vegan 22-month old is taller than 4 and 5 year olds, eats like a champ, and her doctor thinks she's absolutely thriving and wouldn't change a thing. I think feeding a vegan diet to children gets a bad rap because you hear of parents restricting their childs diet to the point of starvation/malnutrition, which can happen on ANY way of eating...we make sure our child is getting enough of all her nutrients, and she will eat nearly anything we put in front of her...animal products aside.
For the record, I'm vegan and my husband is about as far from vegan as you can be. We both have a dairy allergy and our child does too, so dairy is off the table. However, we have tried giving her meat and eggs, and they are some of the ONLY foods she flat out refuses. We still offer them when my husband is eating them, but she'd rather devour his quinoa and broccoli. Which is fine by us, we just make sure her nutritional needs are met. If she EVER wants to eat animal products, I will have no problem with that, but my point is, she is FAR from missing out on anything she needs on a vegan diet.
you realize the bolded part has nothing to do with diet, right?
The reason they want to outlaw the dietary choice for children is because of recent incidences of death due to malnutrition. She wouldn't be 3.5 feet tall and thriving if she was malnourished, so yes, it does have to do with diet. Would she be as tall and thriving on a different diet? Probably. The point was that she is NOT malnourished and SUFFERING because of a vegan diet. "failure to thrive" is a medical dx that is very commonly associated with poor nutritional health. "You do realize the bolded part has nothing to do with diet?" No, but I do realize that you are clearly not an expert.
a non-vegan child can be properly nourished.
The things you are noticing with your child are based on genetics and not whether or not said child is eating vegan.
You've made it quite clear that you have not read the article in debate. The REASONING for trying to pass this law is because they are claiming that veganism leads to malnourished children. I'm stating that this is not the case, and am in argument with the article, which obviously you have chosen not to read and have instead decided to assume that I'm claiming non-vegan diets cause malnourishment? Where the eff did you read that in my posts?12 -
chunky_pinup wrote: »MissTattoo wrote: »I don't think your diet has anything to do with height of your children. It's genetics. My 9 year old has always been the tallest baby/toddler/child. She's 5'2 while the rest of her 4th grade class is under 4'7. I'm 5'11. Her dad is 6'7. My sister is 5'11. My dad was 6'5. My aunt is 6'2. My first cousins (on my dad's side) are 6'2+ (female and male) We're just tall. She was going to be tall regardless if I breastfed or not or if she ate meat or just veggies.
I don't think it should be outlawed, but I do think people need to be educated. You can't feed a newborn just water and liquefied carrots. As long as your child isn't starved, feed them whatever works for you.
I'm fully aware that her height is genetics...but she wouldn't be reaching that height if she was malnourished or deficient nutrient-wise, which is the reasoning behind the law they are trying to pass in the article.
so are you saying that non-vegans are malnourished???
When did I say that?
I'm debating the article...you know...the thing I actually read...on a post in a debate forum...debating said article...before taking offense to someone's post for something not even said.8 -
FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
Five two and 120 lb is far from obese! It's "thick" maybe.... I wouldn't even call it remotely fat.1 -
FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Most of them are having formula as babies and slim jims, twinkies, and kool aid for lunch by 1 1/2.
Putting formula and slim jims/twinkies/kool-aid in the same sentence is *kitten* rude. I was unable to nurse and my son turned out just fine with a very healthy BMI. Get off your high horse.
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I think feeding kids processed junk food should be a crime. But not feeding them a plant-based diet.5
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I agree @shinycrazy. Not to threadjack, but I was offended by that comment as well.
I have formula fed all my kids and they turned out fine. None are obese. I'm pregnant now, and I'm going to formula feed this one too. I'm not trying to have the stress of weaning a baby at 8 weeks when I have to go back to work while juggling the newness of having 3 kids, and getting a routine down for my 2 hour a day commute and 40 hour work week. If I got 6 months off paid, I'd breast feed...but I have no desire to spend hours pumping at work and storing my breast milk in the fridge with your lean cuisines.12 -
FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
Five two and 120 lb is far from obese! It's "thick" maybe.... I wouldn't even call it remotely fat.
I'm 5 ft 2 and if I was 120 I'd be healthy. It's not obese, not even overweight. It's in the normal range, I can't imagine why they did that!1 -
Ahh, two topics that people are extremely passionate about - parenting and veganism.
This thread will go places.
IN.
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The idea of anything being *outlawed* related to raising one's children beyond outright abuse or neglect is absurd. Unfortunately, there are SO many gray areas when it comes to things like diet and medical care because the application of the same concept in one family may be wonderful and in another family it could be abusive.
I'm sure there are plenty of vegan families who raise vegan children who are happy, healthy, and thriving. However, there are as many or more vegan parents who end up (inadvertently) depriving their babies of essential nutrients because they don't do their research or don't apply the research correctly or aren't willing to admit when an approach isn't working or just plain old think that an adult vegan diet is also appropriate for babies. For the first 24 months of life or so a baby's diet should consist of around 50% fat, which is why full-fat dairy is pushed so hard on toddlers - it's essential to brain development, among other things. It's EXTREMELY hard to get a child of that age to consume enough plant based fats to meet that requirement. (Additionally, it hasn't yet been established whether saturated fats have unique risks OR benefits not associated with unsaturated fats.)
Of course it can be done and there are plenty of toddlers out there who pack away avocado and flaxseed like it's goldfish and applesauce. But, for the most part, nuts and seeds are difficult (or even dangerous) for a child that age to chew and swallow, and there are only so many oil-soaked vegetables, PB&Js, and servings of guac an 18 month old will eat in a day. Like I said, it certainly can be done, theoretically. But too many parents aren't willing or able to pay the attention needed to their vegan infant's diet and/or aren't willing to concede defeat when they've run out of vegan ways to feed their toddler a balanced diet and accept that a limited amount of animal products might need to be temporarily introduced, which is what makes it so dangerous.6 -
Given that it is possible for children to thrive as vegans, I think it would be absolute governmental over-reach for it to be outlawed. Child abuse -- including malnourishment -- should absolutely be against the law. But forcing parents to feed their children animal products? No way.3
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FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
Force fed an eating disorder? This is laughable.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
So which is it? We can teach our kids to eat healthily and not be huge couch potatoes, or we can feed them all the garbage and give them video games so they are big enough not to be "flagged" as too small... and then labeled as obese when they are clearly NOT obese.
Not sure what test they would have used. BMI, which is the height/weight 5'2 120lbs is smack dab in the middle of healthy range. She medically wouldn't be considered obese until 160lbs.3 -
BillMcKay1 wrote: »FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
Force fed an eating disorder? This is laughable.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
So which is it? We can teach our kids to eat healthily and not be huge couch potatoes, or we can feed them all the garbage and give them video games so they are big enough not to be "flagged" as too small... and then labeled as obese when they are clearly NOT obese.
Not sure what test they would have used. BMI, which is the height/weight 5'2 120lbs is smack dab in the middle of healthy range. She medically wouldn't be considered obese until 160lbs.
Children have a different BMI chart. According to the child chart, she is overweight (I'm not defending what the school did -- I am horrified by this story).4 -
I'd like to see the text of the law (translated, or I'd find it myself). Although the motivation relates to certain incidents resulting from badly-constructed vegan diets, if it says "lacking essential nutrients" (as seems to be the case) and the issue is not supplementing B12 or having a deficient diet that results in malnutrition, that's a different thing than assuming that vegan diets inherently lack essential nutrients, which is not the case.
I still find it troubling, as it would be hard to enforce and so done inconsistently, and there can be medical issues that appear to be related to malnutrition (like malabsorption problems) that appear to be the parents' fault but are not.
Haven't there been some cases here with babies/children being fed inadequate diets that resulted in prosecution?
Edit--yes, here are a couple of examples:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/24/ctv.swinton/
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chunky_pinup wrote: »I would certainly hope not! My vegan 22-month old is taller than 4 and 5 year olds, eats like a champ, and her doctor thinks she's absolutely thriving and wouldn't change a thing. I think feeding a vegan diet to children gets a bad rap because you hear of parents restricting their childs diet to the point of starvation/malnutrition, which can happen on ANY way of eating...we make sure our child is getting enough of all her nutrients, and she will eat nearly anything we put in front of her...animal products aside.
For the record, I'm vegan and my husband is about as far from vegan as you can be. We both have a dairy allergy and our child does too, so dairy is off the table. However, we have tried giving her meat and eggs, and they are some of the ONLY foods she flat out refuses. We still offer them when my husband is eating them, but she'd rather devour his quinoa and broccoli. Which is fine by us, we just make sure her nutritional needs are met. If she EVER wants to eat animal products, I will have no problem with that, but my point is, she is FAR from missing out on anything she needs on a vegan diet.
Technically, the proposed Italian law, according to my reading of the article, penalizes vegan diets that result in malnourishment. So if the child is thriving, regardless of diet, no one is going to jail. The law would worry me a bit because children can have absorption issues, like adults, and it seems possible that parents who aren't negligent could be penalized too, if it was assumed that the diet was the problem.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
Force fed an eating disorder? This is laughable.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
So which is it? We can teach our kids to eat healthily and not be huge couch potatoes, or we can feed them all the garbage and give them video games so they are big enough not to be "flagged" as too small... and then labeled as obese when they are clearly NOT obese.
Not sure what test they would have used. BMI, which is the height/weight 5'2 120lbs is smack dab in the middle of healthy range. She medically wouldn't be considered obese until 160lbs.
Children have a different BMI chart. According to the child chart, she is overweight (I'm not defending what the school did -- I am horrified by this story).
hmm...I was looking at a BMI chart for girls aged 2-20 and it indicated at 5'2 120 was in the normal range.3 -
enterdanger wrote: »I wouldn't feed my kids 100% Vegan, but I'm against anyone telling me what I can and can't eat and how to feed my kids. Stop trying to over govern me.
The US gov't in particular is ridiculous. They think I'm too dumb to make good choices here in Philly and have a tax on sweet beverages (I say sweet since diet stuff is taxed too). However, I'm apparently smart enough to be able to go out tomorrow and buy an assault rifle. How does that make sense?
Over 2/3 of the US is overweight or obese. Seems like a lot of people have issues making choices.1 -
BillMcKay1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »BillMcKay1 wrote: »FrugalMomsRock75 wrote: »Children shouldn't be force fed an eating disorder... but I also hate the nanny state.
Force fed an eating disorder? This is laughable.
The main reason is because my daughter came home from school (PUBLIC) devastated one day. They had done the height/weight tests and slapped labels on them and sent them home with their fresh new stickers including, "normal" "overweight" and "obese" Oh. And shan't forget "morbidly obese." My daughter-who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 120-ish pounds was sent home with a shiny "OBESE" sticker. Talk about force feeding an eating disorder? Soon after this, she stopped eating dinner, stopped taking her lunch to school... rarely ate breakfast. Those *kitten* had her believing she was obese! At 10 years of age! I had a struggle with her for years over that crap.
So which is it? We can teach our kids to eat healthily and not be huge couch potatoes, or we can feed them all the garbage and give them video games so they are big enough not to be "flagged" as too small... and then labeled as obese when they are clearly NOT obese.
Not sure what test they would have used. BMI, which is the height/weight 5'2 120lbs is smack dab in the middle of healthy range. She medically wouldn't be considered obese until 160lbs.
Children have a different BMI chart. According to the child chart, she is overweight (I'm not defending what the school did -- I am horrified by this story).
hmm...I was looking at a BMI chart for girls aged 2-20 and it indicated at 5'2 120 was in the normal range.
I used this one, from the CDC website. However, I am not an expert and it may not be the most up-to-date way to measure. https://nccd.cdc.gov/dnpabmi/calculator.aspx1 -
Here in this province a couple were found guilty of killing their toddler, who died of meningitis. The couple, who ran their own health food business tried to treat their increasingly sick child with mustard plasters and the like. All natural. No visit to a conventional doctor or an emergency room until it was much, much too late.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-meningitis-trial-sentence-parents-toddler-died-1.3650653
Essential micronutrients that a growing child needs include B12, the omega 3 fatty acids, and vitamin D are not easily fulfilled on a vegan diet. No matter how well researched and earnest the parents may be.
What does that article have to do with a vegan diet? Those parents refused to get medical treatment for their child. Not really the same thing.4 -
As the American Academy of Pediatrics, a vegan or vegetarian diet can be appropriate for children of all ages. Anybody who is stupid enough to not do the work to ensure their child is getting adequately nourished is not going to do better if you just demand they add eggs or meat to the diet. There are plenty of children eating truly awful non-vegan diets. When they get sick, you just never see a headline reading "Parents under suspicion for feeding children omnivorous diet!"8
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