Why are people so negative regarding clean eating?

FlaxMilk

Maybe you should read the forums a bit more before judging. It's not one side versus the other. It's individual people. Some are sensitive and some aren't. Trying to group people like that is just going to cause a "fight" instead of discussion...unless that's what you are aiming for. If so...not cool.

I know people who are cool/great people that do paleo, are vegans/vegetarians, etc. Unfortunately though, in real life and on MFP, they seem to be the minority. I've come across more of the extremists (or as some or them have actually called themselves - elitists) on here than people like yourself.
It kind of ends up setting the tone when certain threads pop up. Sucks for the cool ones

I think the "all individuals" argument applies to the groups you mention in the second post too. Most veggies, vegans, and paleo are just as normal and non-abrasive, non-confrontational, and normal as the average IIFYM. We just notice the ones more who PM each other stating that they will die from cancer, just like I notice the people more who call others elitist or come on every thread where someone posts that they want to eat "clean" and ask for advice with bleach jokes or a condescending attitude. We see what we expect to see. You could visit my friends list if you want a bunch of people who are vegan or vegetarian that you probably never even see post on the forums. I wouldn't know they are vegans myself if not for the food diaries. Most of us just live our lives, but of course you'll see people on a diet and fitness forum talking about particular plans or ways of eating.

BeachIron

Maybe you should read the forums a bit more before judging. It's not one side versus the other. It's individual people. Some are sensitive and some aren't. Trying to group people like that is just going to cause a "fight" instead of discussion...unless that's what you are aiming for. If so...not cool.

I know people who are cool/great people that do paleo, are vegans/vegetarians, etc. Unfortunately though, in real life and on MFP, they seem to be the minority. I've come across more of the extremists (or as some or them have actually called themselves - elitists) on here than people like yourself.
It kind of ends up setting the tone when certain threads pop up. Sucks for the cool ones

I think the "all individuals" argument applies to the groups you mention in the second post too. Most veggies, vegans, and paleo are just as normal and non-abrasive, non-confrontational, and normal as the average IIFYM. We just notice the ones more who PM each other stating that they will die from cancer, just like I notice the people more who call others elitist or come on every thread where someone posts that they want to eat "clean" and ask for advice with bleach jokes or a condescending attitude. We see what we expect to see. You could visit my friends list if you want a bunch of people who are vegan or vegetarian that you probably never even see post on the forums. I wouldn't know they are vegans myself if not for the food diaries. Most of us just live our lives, but of course you'll see people on a diet and fitness forum talking about particular plans or ways of eating.

I agree that we are talking individuals and you make some valid points. I often cringe at the Windex jokes myself as I think they tend to push some people away who sit on the fence. I moved from calling my own diet "something along the lines of clean" prior to joining MFP to calling it "flexible dieting" after I joined MFP and read some of descriptions and references to the work of Alan Aragon that I found in the "Eat, Train, Progress" Group. I had been working out a lot of this in my own head for a very long time and that provided a very nice logical framework that meshed quite well with where I was going. One of my problems with the clean eating "movement," if you will forgive the term, is that cancer scare mongering is a very large part of the sales pitch. If you go into the clean eating groups here you will see it. Google "clean eating" and you will come up with numerous other examples. A diet rich in vegetables and fruits with a focus on lean proteins, whole grains, and good fats such as what is found in salmon, certain nuts and sees, and avocados isn't being debated. If someone chooses to go further and cut out some foods and go vegan or vegetarian, then fine. I have family members that do so and I very much respect their intelligence and thinking and I was a vegetarian for a short period in college. I see those as more moral choices than anything else though. It's only when these diets are presented as preventing cancer or as somehow healthier than an omnivorous diet that I take exception. Another other issue I see is that anytime someone starts talking of IIFYM, there are several responses of "fine eat Pop Tarts" which misses the entire point of flexible dieting and how seriously many of us take our diets. This also raises the point of how the term "clean" is thrown around as a battering ram by certain individuals to provide that they are somehow morally superior. The term is not easily defined and I see the debates among clean eaters all the time about whether things like milk and grains are "clean." Much more is accomplished if the conversation simply focuses on the nutrition provided by these foods and how they fit into one's overall diet.

FlaxMilk

I agree that we are talking individuals and you make some valid points. I often cringe at the Windex jokes myself as I think they tend to push some people away who sit on the fence. I moved from calling my own diet "something along the lines of clean" prior to joining MFP to calling it "flexible dieting" after I joined MFP and read some of descriptions and references to the work of Alan Aragon that I found in the "Eat, Train, Progress" Group. I had been working out a lot of this in my own head for a very long time and that provided a very nice logical framework that meshed quite well with where I was going. One of my problems with the clean eating "movement," if you will forgive the term, is that cancer scare mongering is a very large part of the sales pitch. If you go into the clean eating groups here you will see it. Google "clean eating" and you will come up with numerous other examples. A diet rich in vegetables and fruits with a focus on lean proteins, whole grains, and good fats such as what is found in salmon, certain nuts and sees, and avocados isn't being debated. If someone chooses to go further and cut out some foods and go vegan or vegetarian, then fine. I have family members that do so and I very much respect their intelligence and thinking and I was a vegetarian for a short period in college. I see those as more moral choices than anything else though. It's only when these diets are presented as preventing cancer or as somehow healthier than an omnivorous diet that I take exception. Another other issue I see is that anytime someone starts talking of IIFYM, there are several responses of "fine eat Pop Tarts" which misses the entire point of flexible dieting and how seriously many of us take our diets. This also raises the point of how the term "clean" is thrown around as a battering ram by certain individuals to provide that they are somehow morally superior. The term is not easily defined and I see the debates among clean eaters all the time about whether things like milk and grains are "clean." Much more is accomplished if the conversation simply focuses on the nutrition provided by these foods and how they fit into one's overall diet.

Yes, I would agree with your post. My ideal way of eating is both IIFYM and 100% clean, but I know I won't ever make it 100% on either, so I just use them as guidelines. I do stick to vegan eating without cheating (knowingly), but like you mentioned, that comes from a belief system and not nutrition. If we'd all stop talking about groups and address individuals, we'd probably stop having these circular debates. (For instance, I avoid discussing the nutrition benefits of a vegan diet until someone tells me how nutritionally deficient I must be. I don't make it a "more healthy than you" but I can hold my own when someone makes false or uneducated assumptions about how I eat. I'd really prefer not to have to do this at all, though. When someone asks me health questions about meat, I just point out to them that they are probably asking the wrong person as I'm completely uneducated on the ins and outs of meat.)

I have found a lot of IIFYM statements thought-provoking and potentially mind-changing. These were the times when the points were made by focusing on ideas and not on winning. I know that I feel my best and am most likely to stick to IIFYM when I veer more toward the "limit treats" philosophy, but more power to those who can do the daily or frequent treats. I would be pretty turned off though if someone PM'ed me when I had a treat and told me how that would mess me up. I had no idea that was happening here, but I usually don't make it through all the pages of these particular threads.

Zenjaeie

I HATE the whole "deficit" argument. I'm not going to argue about whether it's true or not, that's not the point, it's just that the people who attack clean eaters seem to always say it and it's a little irrelevant to the purpose of clean eating.

PikaKnight

I HATE the whole "deficit" argument. I'm not going to argue about whether it's true or not, that's not the point, it's just that the people who attack clean eaters seem to always say it and it's a little irrelevant to the purpose of clean eating.

It's relevant when people spout that clean eating is the ONLY way to lose and that it doesn't matter if you eat at a deficit when you eat clean...which has been brought up several times in this thread.

ninerbuff

Because there seems to be a lot of ignorance abounding as to what IIFYM actually is (and not the bastardized version people think it is):



'IIFYM started as a phrase from a user named Erik Stevens on bodybuilding.com and quickly caught on and proceeded to cause an uproar of internet stupidity everywhere. It was phrased as a fast way to respond to the overwhelming number of questions about whether or not someone could eat a particular food item without having to worry about getting fat, or not gaining muscle, or (insert other negative effect).


When practicing IIFYM, it is recommended that you choose mostly whole and nutrient dense foods to comprise the majority of your intake. Fresh vegetables, fruits, meats, fish, etc, and at the same time, leaving some room for a discretionary intake. A common and very reasonable recommendation would be about 80/20. That is to say, that if you've got a calorie target of 2500, you'd eat approximately 2000 calories of whole and nutrient dense foods with a calorie bank of 500 to eat whatever you would like while still hitting your calorie and macronutrient targets by end of day ."

Paraphrased from here:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/817188-iifym


It does not mean ignore micronutrients, fiber, personal dietary choices or satiety.

IIFYM can be applied by 'clean' eaters, vegetarians, paleo peeps, etc, etc, etc.

Yep. That's why I've adhered to it for several years. It works without having to restrict foods ones actually likes to eat without compromising one's overall health. Well of course unless one is eating FUGU.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ghost15026

This makes for an entertaining thread to read.

Pretty sure the lesson to be learned from this post: Don't get baited by forum trolls.

Everyone really agrees in principle but just differs on how to get there and semantics. Don't really care as long as its working for you.

NonnyMary

Ha! this is funny, it reminds me of this - i used to visit a Christian message board and this kind of thing goes on with the atheists - on the christian board - making fun and insulting the christians. i guess it happens everywhere.

i think that perceived preachiness is what turns people off. or on the other hand, the people going about eating "junk" and them bragging about - drive the other side nuts.

I too used to be turned off by the holier than thou preachiness of some well-meaning followers of some food craze. i used to call them tree huggers and this actually turned me off of eating healthy because the tree huggers and well they were often vegans were proclaiming it super religiously and it turned me off. i rememeber that when reading some of the comments here.

so i would say its when people get preachy is what would aggravate me, and maybe others here.

LiftAllThePizzas

All the attacking is a bit out of hand though. If you mention you try to avoid bacon, white rice, or ice cream watch out! I think what the IIFYM crew doesn't realize is just because someone tries to avoid a certain type of food doesn't mean that they never eat it and any user has the right to think a certain type of food is not the healthiest option without getting a barrage of attacks for your difference of opinion.

The problem is when you try to paint certain foods as "garbage" and say that food A is always better than food B as if there is no context for such a comparison. And then you make your own character/integrity/expertise the foundation of your argument. When you do that you are the one making it fair game for other people to research and criticize you on a personal level because you chose to make your credibility directly relevant to the veracity of your position. If instead you supply relevant research then people will concern themselves with the credibility of that research.

FlaxMilk

I too used to be turned off by the holier than thou preachiness of some well-meaning followers of some food craze. i used to call them tree huggers and this actually turned me off of eating healthy because the tree huggers and well they were often vegans were proclaiming it super religiously and it turned me off. i rememeber that when reading some of the comments here.

You say you used to be this way--what changed your mind? I've seen vegans get called preachy and aggravating, but I've never seen them blamed for someone else not wanting to eat healthy, especially because you can eat healthfully and not be vegan.

Out of curiosity, would you object to people who are very religious getting labeled as some term? I'm surprised that you believe that most people on a food craze are vegans, because many of the food crazes would actually be very hard or impossible to do as a vegan (paleo, low carb/Adkins, South Beach, Weight Watchers shakes, etc.)

I also want to know where people meet all these vegans! One reason I fell in love with MFP was because I finally met other people who have similar eating challenges/habits. I don't think I've ever met another vegan in my life. Where do you all live that you know so many that you can know that they are behind all the holier than thou food crazes?

Edit: I re-read and saw that you said "A food craze." Which one?

Bernadette60614

I guess the question is: Why are people so negative?

About anything.....

FitnessBeverlyHills

Too hard not to pop in especially when I see the same common users in here. I agree with much of what everyone is saying, I think both the "clean eaters" and "dirty eaters" are pretty much in agreeance over the same issues. Eat well balanced, get your proper nutrition, splurge in moderation when you need to, be realistic, have a well balanced diet you can stick with long term, stay active, include weight training. I just think this " IIFYM fad" is another diet label. I personally stay away from any and all diets.

All the attacking is a bit out of hand though. If you mention you try to avoid bacon, white rice, or ice cream watch out! I think what the IIFYM crew doesn't realize is just because someone tries to avoid a certain type of food doesn't mean that they never eat it and any user has the right to think a certain type of food is not the healthiest option without getting a barrage of attacks for your difference of opinion.

This made me laugh a bit about the 'IIFYM crowd." People think that's the highest level of leniency. People forget about the IIFYC(IF It Fits your Calories) crowd. The IIFYM crowd think they're superior to the clean eaters, the IIFYC crowd think they're superior than the IIFYM crowd. It depends on the level of abstraction.

My question to you is... you mentioned IIFYM as a fad. I do kind of agree with you, just curious what eating/dietary method you would consider that's not a fad?

I don't follow any of them, so I agree they're all fads, diets, labels whatever you want to call them. There is no right or wrong way. I concentrate on the overall lifestyle and try to work with clients on in individual basis. My objective is to make a lifestyle change, not just to focus on weight loss. For some people substitutions work, some people need more resistance training, some are very successful counting their calories, some people actually prefer to eat no "dirty foods" at all. I have clients that are very into organic and don't even believe in microwaving food because it zaps the nutrients. Everyone is truly different and using one method is just not realistic for myself, probably many of the people on these boards, or my clients. I think some of these "crowds" do have a superiority complex and I can see how it can be frustrating and discouraging for some of the members on these forums.

Legit question: do you get your clients to try to hit certain macronutrients within their dietary parameters?

I don't tell them they must hit a certain specific number everyday, but I encourage them to keep a balance and pay attention to what they are eating, if their diet is 50% carbs, I advise to cut some carbs and add in more protein. I don't think anyone is perfect and don't have them strive for perfection. I also encourage getting enough fiber and in order to get that fiber some substitutions might need to be made like eating more whole grains and vegetables. I also believe in getting your vitamins from natural sources instead of man made vitamins or foods that are fortified. This encourages the consumption of veggies, fruits, proteins, fish, whole grains..or in other words a nice balanced diet.

I actually personally have a very similar diet myself to the IIFYM crowd as I love certain treats and I am able to eat them because I don't go overboard. I always have enough calories in my day to include them. While I don't calculate it out to a specific number of calories, I have gotten good at just doing it naturally. I have no problem with this approach at all and think it can be very beneficial for a lot of people, I just don't think its the only approach that works, or that is has to be one or the other. There are good points to all these various diets/ views points and they can all be used together.

kellyskitties

I have to say I am currently turned off IIFYM and Clean by all this. I'm no newbie to nutrition, but I am to this site. I briefly considered changing sites but I'm liking my friend base I've got started.

I started with paleo, drifted primal, and shifted to clean/whole/real. I didn't choose clean, I chose my own path and it had no name. One day I discovered it very closely aligned with "clean." I never realized increasing clean meant I had to view the rest as dirty. I didn't have that thought until I got here. I had yet to feel terrible for a food choice - and so far I've not been attacked. Somebody attacks me or my food diary I'm done with them. Somebody makes a recommendation - fine. I'll consider it. Had a very polite person recommend a diet I did not recognize - looked it up - it was vegan. I know if I did without meat I would feel very deprived. So I just moved on. No reason to be hateful about it.

Somebody sent me IIFYM information and said I might find it more welcoming than the clean eaters who would pick my diary apart. So far they have not. But I went to IIFYM, which I actually have no problem with in it's original concept, and most of what I could easily find was a bunch of bragging about who could down a T-rex burger. I realize it's that they COULD not HAD TO eat that burger. So initially it sounded like a bunch of hedonistic gluttons and macho body builders. I felt confused. Looked deeper and sought some more info from the person who recommended it. I found the original ideas don't actually misalign with the clean eaters who are not food nazis.

So now I basically just don't understand the arguments and still don't feel the need to join either team. I just wish when somebody starts a post for something unrelated it didn't get hijacked by this crazy out of control arguing. I've seen brand new site members looking for friends (mine was one by the way if you need an example) innocently looking for support - and even though the OP isn't attacked - the whole thread ends up just being a forum for this argument.

So no, I'll stay on my own path and just keep borrowing tid bits from other diets that I think are good decisions for myself. And I will keep some clean thinking and I will keep eating a little dirty.

LiftAllThePizzas

All the attacking is a bit out of hand though. If you mention you try to avoid bacon, white rice, or ice cream watch out! I think what the IIFYM crew doesn't realize is just because someone tries to avoid a certain type of food doesn't mean that they never eat it and any user has the right to think a certain type of food is not the healthiest option without getting a barrage of attacks for your difference of opinion.

Oh, and also, it was you who called people a bunch of a-holes and d-bags, and denigrated the first woman who disagreed with you by calling her "sweetie" starting with your initial response to her. You also mischaracterized my diet as "scarfing down pizzas every day," claimed I do "NOTHING" (yes, in all caps) and described my current occupation disparagingly as "daddy day care."

I'd link to those posts by you so people could see your attitude for themselves, except they aren't there anymore because they were so vile that the mods deleted them for violation of the user agreement. I'd be shocked if I were the only one who could see the massive discrepancy between the above post and your behavior elsewhere on this forum.

Achrya

:flowerforyou: Hi

I went through a lot of trouble to weed out this thread because it was a 'clean' debate with no 'dirty' fighting until page 10. (see what I did there? )

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines

1. No Attacks or Insults and No Reciprocation

a) Do not attack, mock, or otherwise insult others. You can respectfully disagree with the message or topic, but you cannot attack the messenger. This includes attacks against the user’s spelling or command of written English, or belittling a user for posting a duplicate topic.

b) If you are attacked by another user, and you reciprocate, you will also be subject to the same consequences. Defending yourself or a friend is not an excuse! Do not take matters into your own hands – instead, use the Report Post link to report an attack and we will be happy to handle the situation for you.

Arewethereyet
MFP Moderator

And I deleted all the responses quoting the offensive posts. If someone attacks you, or posts something against the forum guidelines, please do not quote it! Thanks!)

I like this. It's progress :drinker:

I'd roll my eyes but I wouldn't want the mods to think I was being offensive.

thinklivebefree

The world be be such a better place if people just ate, logged, and shut the f____ up! Everyone always has something to add in for everything! Don't believe me? Post a Topic, titled it "DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST" wait and see how many people respond....Also there are many many many many many many many arrgo/ignorant people out there!!

freebirdjones

For me this is a lifestyle change. I don't want to "diet" so I thought that logging what I eat on mfp whether it be on a cal surplus, maintenance, or at a deficit I could see how to eat real foods and keep it in my cal and macro allowance. So after logging for a few months I now know with the foods I eat about how many cals I get in a day.

I just want to know what clean eaters do at a work potluck, a family bbq, a wedding, Christmas, etc. I think being fit is a personal choice and I don't like to make my choice effect others. So I grab my plate and load up on any meat or veg, but if there is a hamburger and bun or macaroni salad I'll eat it and fit it into my day. Do you go to places and refuse to eat because it's dirty? Just eat it and then do a workout at home later. I just know you knock us for having a bit of white rice, or bread with our sandwich, but you guys make everyday situations difficult when your at a function and your like "Oh I cant really eat that right now" you make people who have not made the choice to be fit feel bad.

I don't eat 100% clean because I'm using food logging to learn how to eat for life. So seeing a few dirty items in my day has me learning their values. So don't knock me for trying to stick to a new way of eating for life, I'm not eating clean because I know it's not possible to eat 100% clean for life.

It's not that your more dedicated or have more willpower. I mentally thought about my approach and made an educated decision not to eat 100% clean. I can also have a bite of a trigger food and then wrap it up to have a bite in a few days, some ppl eat clean because they would eat 2L of ice cream if they had 1 bite, so I can think of who has more willpower. I just hate how people who eat clean act so arrogant. ALL OF MY POST IS GENERAL BY NO MEANS IS EVERYONE WHO EATS CLEAN ARROGANT, BUT SOME ARE. (I don't want to scare anyone on my FL, this is just my 2 cents)

FlaxMilk

I just know you knock us for having a bit of white rice, or bread with our sandwich, but you guys make everyday situations difficult when your at a function and your like "Oh I cant really eat that right now" you make people who have not made the choice to be fit feel bad.

some ppl eat clean because they would eat 2L of ice cream if they had 1 bite, so I can think of who has more willpower. I just hate how people who eat clean act so arrogant. ALL OF MY POST IS GENERAL BY NO MEANS IS EVERYONE WHO EATS CLEAN ARROGANT, BUT SOME ARE. (I don't want to scare anyone on my FL, this is just my 2 cents)

You really don't know what people are thinking. When I am able to pass up a temptation, I am thinking about myself, not about you. It's not my problem if my food choices make others have bad feelings about their own choices. That's not within my control. (As a vegan, people eat meat in front of me all the time, and if someone apologizes for it or ask if they shouldn't eat it in front of me, I thank them for their courtesy but assure them not to worry on my behalf. It's not all about me.)

Any group of people in the world (clean eaters, IIFYM, vegans, Christians, Caucasians, Asians, cat people, anti-baby people, parents) have some arrogant people in them. You sound like you are giving a lot more energy to clean eaters than needed with how much you say you are thinking of them. If you can take a bite of trigger food and wrap the rest up for later, you do have more willpower in that area than I do. I wish I could do that. That's awesome for you. Celebrate that for yourself, leave everyone else out of it.

Lulufifi1994

I don't have any issue with the diet choice it's the terminology I dislike. Due to the nature of language if you class some foods as "clean" then by assosiation foods that are not "clean" are "dirty" and I know a lot of people with EDs who would not need that sort of idea in their heads. If you want to eat things that are as close to their natural state as possible then fine, go ahead, but maybe find a different name for the foods you allow yourself to eat. "Raw" springs to mind, even though I know full well that you will be eating cooked stuff it doesn't have the same implications.

freebirdjones

I just know you knock us for having a bit of white rice, or bread with our sandwich, but you guys make everyday situations difficult when your at a function and your like "Oh I cant really eat that right now" you make people who have not made the choice to be fit feel bad.

some ppl eat clean because they would eat 2L of ice cream if they had 1 bite, so I can think of who has more willpower. I just hate how people who eat clean act so arrogant. ALL OF MY POST IS GENERAL BY NO MEANS IS EVERYONE WHO EATS CLEAN ARROGANT, BUT SOME ARE. (I don't want to scare anyone on my FL, this is just my 2 cents)

You really don't know what people are thinking. When I am able to pass up a temptation, I am thinking about myself, not about you. It's not my problem if my food choices make others have bad feelings about their own choices. That's not within my control. (As a vegan, people eat meat in front of me all the time, and if someone apologizes for it or ask if they shouldn't eat it in front of me, I thank them for their courtesy but assure them not to worry on my behalf. It's not all about me.)

Any group of people in the world (clean eaters, IIFYM, vegans, Christians, Caucasians, Asians, cat people, anti-baby people, parents) have some arrogant people in them. You sound like you are giving a lot more energy to clean eaters than needed with how much you say you are thinking of them. If you can take a bite of trigger food and wrap the rest up for later, you do have more willpower in that area than I do. I wish I could do that. That's awesome for you. Celebrate that for yourself, leave everyone else out of it.

I said in caps that this statement was not 100% of people, it was a general statement. Good for you on your social behavior. I was talking about, and I've seen it more than once is oh no I can't have that I'm watching what I eat" etc. That can come off as offensive. As well as that attitude my eating is better, or I have more will power. I was just addressing many points made in this thread. It was someone else who said clean eaters had more determination, I was just addressing that.

And this post was about clean eaters so please don't get me started about other group of people in the world (clean eaters, IIFYM, vegans, Christians, Caucasians, Asians, cat people, anti-baby people, parents). That is not what we are addressing here.

And although its not "your fault" if the way you word your choices makes people feel bad, we can all edit our sentences so our choices don't effect anyone. That's what I was getting at, so if you aren't the rude one at a work function awesome! Go you

All I wanted to address is that there are some clean eaters that have a high sense of entitlement and that does cause "dirty" eaters to be defensive.