If I cut out bread will that help loosing weight?
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TLDR: I found some fairly recent evidence supporting the idea that proteins and fats contribute more to satiety than do carbohydrates.
Welp, not surprisingly there was a ton of conflicting studies out there about satiety and macros, especially in discussions in older papers. I made the leap from satiety to adherence and didn't take the time to find evidence to support or dispute. Satiety is generally defined as a lasting feeling of fullness, (versus being satisfied at the end of the meal). If anyone wants to contest the idea that lasting fullness is the main factor in adherence, well, that's another discussion entirely that I'm not up for atm.
I went to google scholar, chose only studies after 2012, and looked for Carbohydrate Satiety and found the first study, then Protein Satiety and found the second.
Here are the links to the two studies:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2012-3835 - for fats vs carbs
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/97/5/980.short - for proteins vs carbs
Even in the older studies, the concept that protein provides more satiety than fat or carbs seemed to be fairly well accepted. Whether fats or carbs provided more satiety was controversial. So let me start with the easier case to prove, that proteins give more satiety than carbs.
In the proteins vs carbs satiety study, published in May 2013 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, test meals were equivalent calorically and contained a constant fat level of 30%. The meals consisted of normal protein levels (NP) of 14% protein, medium high (MHP) levels of 25% and high (HP) levels of 50% protein. Obviously the carb levels decreased correspondingly. Their conclusion was that GLP-1 levels rose with increased protein (to be discussed further when I talk about the fats vs carbs study), and that "Satiety and fullness dose-dependently increased by 7% and 6% for MHP and 16% and 19% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.001). Hunger and prospective consumption dose-dependently decreased by 15% and 13% for MHP and by 25% and 26% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.0003)." So satiety increased and hunger decreased with higher levels of protein and lower levels of carbs.
In the fats vs carbs satiety study, published in the March 2013 edition of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, the authors set out to look not only at fats vs carbs but at the hunger hormones ghrelin, GLP-1 and PYY, and their association with hunger and satiety. There were no differences between fat and carbs for ghrelin, but fat meals (also isocaloric) were associated with higher GLP-1 levels and PYY levels. GLP-1 levels, at the late satiety phase (60-180 minutes postprandial), were negatively associated with hunger. (Not PYY levels strangely, I learned something new here.)
I have only presented two studies because I don't have time to look at any more, but I didn't find any recent studies that disagreed with my views on carbs providing less satiety either. If I had, I would have presented them, and if someone disagrees with the methodology of these studies or wants to present studies that came to a different conclusion I welcome it. I'm here to learn too.
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But potatoes...
Not sure if you are referencing the Mendosa Satiety Index, where the lowly potato rests at the top of the list as the most satisfying food. Supposedly a 240 calorie boiled potato kept people fuller during the 120 minute test than any other food. They speculate that the size, bulk and blandness of potatoes is the key to their satiety.
http://www.mendosa.com/satiety.htm
This index was developed based on subjective impressions every 15 minutes after eating, as compared to the studies above that are not at all concerned with immediate fullness, but only lasting fullness. In fact, I would suggest that the Mendosa Satiety Index is mixing up the terms satisfying and satiety.
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since i started mfp, 50+ days ago I am eating more bread than before due to having peanut butter & tuna.I only use 0ne slice. Before i hardly ever ate bread. You have to experiment to see what fills you up. Bread fills me up. Today i found bread that's 45 calories per slice instead of 1002
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goldthistime wrote: »But potatoes...
Not sure if you are referencing the Mendosa Satiety Index, where the lowly potato rests at the top of the list as the most satisfying food. Supposedly a 240 calorie boiled potato kept people fuller during the 120 minute test than any other food. They speculate that the size, bulk and blandness of potatoes is the key to their satiety.
http://www.mendosa.com/satiety.htm
This index was developed based on subjective impressions every 15 minutes after eating, as compared to the studies above that are not at all concerned with immediate fullness, but only lasting fullness. In fact, I would suggest that the Mendosa Satiety Index is mixing up the terms satisfying and satiety.
More likely referencing the fact that potatoes gonna potate
And mash3 -
goldthistime wrote: »TLDR: I found some fairly recent evidence supporting the idea that proteins and fats contribute more to satiety than do carbohydrates.
Welp, not surprisingly there was a ton of conflicting studies out there about satiety and macros, especially in discussions in older papers. I made the leap from satiety to adherence and didn't take the time to find evidence to support or dispute. Satiety is generally defined as a lasting feeling of fullness, (versus being satisfied at the end of the meal). If anyone wants to contest the idea that lasting fullness is the main factor in adherence, well, that's another discussion entirely that I'm not up for atm.
I went to google scholar, chose only studies after 2012, and looked for Carbohydrate Satiety and found the first study, then Protein Satiety and found the second.
Here are the links to the two studies:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2012-3835 - for fats vs carbs
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/97/5/980.short - for proteins vs carbs
Even in the older studies, the concept that protein provides more satiety than fat or carbs seemed to be fairly well accepted. Whether fats or carbs provided more satiety was controversial. So let me start with the easier case to prove, that proteins give more satiety than carbs.
In the proteins vs carbs satiety study, published in May 2013 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, test meals were equivalent calorically and contained a constant fat level of 30%. The meals consisted of normal protein levels (NP) of 14% protein, medium high (MHP) levels of 25% and high (HP) levels of 50% protein. Obviously the carb levels decreased correspondingly. Their conclusion was that GLP-1 levels rose with increased protein (to be discussed further when I talk about the fats vs carbs study), and that "Satiety and fullness dose-dependently increased by 7% and 6% for MHP and 16% and 19% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.001). Hunger and prospective consumption dose-dependently decreased by 15% and 13% for MHP and by 25% and 26% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.0003)." So satiety increased and hunger decreased with higher levels of protein and lower levels of carbs.
In the fats vs carbs satiety study, published in the March 2013 edition of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, the authors set out to look not only at fats vs carbs but at the hunger hormones ghrelin, GLP-1 and PYY, and their association with hunger and satiety. There were no differences between fat and carbs for ghrelin, but fat meals (also isocaloric) were associated with higher GLP-1 levels and PYY levels. GLP-1 levels, at the late satiety phase (60-180 minutes postprandial), were negatively associated with hunger. (Not PYY levels strangely, I learned something new here.)
I have only presented two studies because I don't have time to look at any more, but I didn't find any recent studies that disagreed with my views on carbs providing less satiety either. If I had, I would have presented them, and if someone disagrees with the methodology of these studies or wants to present studies that came to a different conclusion I welcome it. I'm here to learn too.
I think you may have left the party serious and then returned serious before noticing that things had gone full silly.5 -
If I try cutting out bread will that help me lose weight and not be bloated anymore? I'm having a hard time losing weight. I'm trying to incorporate more meat and chicken. I'm trying to loose a pound a week. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Since you bloat up after consuming bread it wouldn't hurt to cut back to see if that extra water weight goes away. Obviously water weight is not fat, but I do acknowledge that bloating is uncomfortable. Cutting out bread won't help you lose fat unless that helps you to eat lower calories as a result.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
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Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
I know, right. It answered all of my questions in a simple and easy to read format
0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »TLDR: I found some fairly recent evidence supporting the idea that proteins and fats contribute more to satiety than do carbohydrates.
Welp, not surprisingly there was a ton of conflicting studies out there about satiety and macros, especially in discussions in older papers. I made the leap from satiety to adherence and didn't take the time to find evidence to support or dispute. Satiety is generally defined as a lasting feeling of fullness, (versus being satisfied at the end of the meal). If anyone wants to contest the idea that lasting fullness is the main factor in adherence, well, that's another discussion entirely that I'm not up for atm.
I went to google scholar, chose only studies after 2012, and looked for Carbohydrate Satiety and found the first study, then Protein Satiety and found the second.
Here are the links to the two studies:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2012-3835 - for fats vs carbs
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/97/5/980.short - for proteins vs carbs
Even in the older studies, the concept that protein provides more satiety than fat or carbs seemed to be fairly well accepted. Whether fats or carbs provided more satiety was controversial. So let me start with the easier case to prove, that proteins give more satiety than carbs.
In the proteins vs carbs satiety study, published in May 2013 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, test meals were equivalent calorically and contained a constant fat level of 30%. The meals consisted of normal protein levels (NP) of 14% protein, medium high (MHP) levels of 25% and high (HP) levels of 50% protein. Obviously the carb levels decreased correspondingly. Their conclusion was that GLP-1 levels rose with increased protein (to be discussed further when I talk about the fats vs carbs study), and that "Satiety and fullness dose-dependently increased by 7% and 6% for MHP and 16% and 19% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.001). Hunger and prospective consumption dose-dependently decreased by 15% and 13% for MHP and by 25% and 26% for HP compared with NP (P < 0.0003)." So satiety increased and hunger decreased with higher levels of protein and lower levels of carbs.
In the fats vs carbs satiety study, published in the March 2013 edition of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, the authors set out to look not only at fats vs carbs but at the hunger hormones ghrelin, GLP-1 and PYY, and their association with hunger and satiety. There were no differences between fat and carbs for ghrelin, but fat meals (also isocaloric) were associated with higher GLP-1 levels and PYY levels. GLP-1 levels, at the late satiety phase (60-180 minutes postprandial), were negatively associated with hunger. (Not PYY levels strangely, I learned something new here.)
I have only presented two studies because I don't have time to look at any more, but I didn't find any recent studies that disagreed with my views on carbs providing less satiety either. If I had, I would have presented them, and if someone disagrees with the methodology of these studies or wants to present studies that came to a different conclusion I welcome it. I'm here to learn too.
I think you may have left the party serious and then returned serious before noticing that things had gone full silly.
Taters gonna Tate.
Best I got.
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Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
Lol, I look at stuff like this and I swear a door closes in my mind and says "nope."
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Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
Lol, I look at stuff like this and I swear a door closes in my mind and says "nope."
Down and dirty summary - all macronutrients (carbs, fats, proteins) funnel into a series of chemical reactions called the common catabolic pathway to be broken down for energy. And, as was said before, an excess of ANY macronutrient will be stored as fat.2 -
Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
I don't believe the detail provided in that particular post was meant directly for the OP, but rather the people in this thread willfully spreading misinformation about thermodynamics and biochemistry.
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Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
:-P yeah I get that but can't really make it "simple" because it isn't simple, that is why people go to school for years to learn about it. Luckily that is why we have our society geared towards training people on certain complicated topics to become experts in those fields, so that you don't have to as well you can just rely on their expertise. At least that is how it was supposed to work, apparently everyone now just treats that concept like it is somehow elitist and pretends they can "research" everything for themselves via the internet because that works just oh so well. Sorry, snarky rant.
Point is we do know that protein can be metabolically converted to fat and the information for how IS out there. Never claimed it was easy to understand. Never claimed that without the education and training one would be even able to know how to look for it or once finding it even know what they were looking at.
If I just said "protein can get converted to fat" and not given anything to support that though I'm sure I would have been called out for not citing or providing evidence so I did. I can't force people to look at it nor do I feel the need to spoon-feed anyone the info....just say that yes, it is out there.
The comment was directed at those claiming that protein couldn't be metabolically converted into fat which is just wrong. As for the OP yeah you can avoid bread and see if that helps you reach your calories and feel less hungry...you don't need bread. But if you like bread and you can eat bread while also meeting your calorie goal then sure eat bread. There isn't anything out there like "Everyone just do X and you will succeed" its more personal than that so can't really advise someone on it...just say "sure, give it a try...why not, but you don't need to if you don't want to"3 -
geneticsteacher wrote: »Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »
Don't believe me? Put down T-nation and pick up a biochemistry textbook and look it up.
Well, if this doesn't make everything crystal clear for the OP, nothing will.
Lol, I look at stuff like this and I swear a door closes in my mind and says "nope."
Down and dirty summary - all macronutrients (carbs, fats, proteins) funnel into a series of chemical reactions called the common catabolic pathway to be broken down for energy. And, as was said before, an excess of ANY macronutrient will be stored as fat.
Yeah that....basically all the macros can get converted to a hub metabolite in the form of acetyl-CoA which can get shunted into either being anabolically broken down to get energy or be catabolically built up to derive any of the primary macromolecules including fats.
The top figure shows exactly where each of the 20 amino acids goes into the cycle that would allow it to go to acetyl-CoA. The next figure shows the larger system including lipogenesis (fat creation) and how acetyl-CoA can feed into that. The third figure is a simplified cartoony version of the second figure and the final figure just rearranges that to show the hub-like nature of acetyl-CoA.0 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I'm losing weight and I eat bread - killer Dave 60 cal bread. Bloating is an issue for some folks with bread.
Ive heard this before. Out of curiosity why do people care about bloating? Its not fat, its just water retention...has no bearing on your health or fitness. So why do people care? They really want a particular number on their scale or its an aesthetic thing?
Bloating in the fingers make rings too tight. Bloating in the feet makes shoes too tight. Maybe bloating also reminds women of TOM and they just don't like it.
That isn't the kind of bloating to which OP was referring. Unless the need to break wind somehow expands your feet and sticks rings to your fingers.2
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