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Alcohol and Society
Replies
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Monkey_Business wrote: »Here is my take on alcohol (Quoted from Tech Insider): So stay thirsty my friends:
"Not only is beer a delicious frothy mixture of alcoholic goodness, but some scientists think it may have played a pivotal role in the shaping of the history of humankind.
There's evidence that grain convinced our nomadic hunter-gatherer ancestors to settle down and build civilizations centered around agriculture.
It seems natural to conclude they used that grain to make bread — a diet staple used around the world today. But there's evidence that our ancestors were more interested in growing grain to make beer, not bread.
(Come on, which one would you choose?)
Beer over bread
Fermentation — the magic process that turns sugars into alcohol — happens naturally. All you need is a little yeast.
So our ancestors certainly came across naturally fermented fruits and grains in the wild, but the moment when humans realized they could harness this power is unclear.
The earliest chemical evidence of barley-based beer dates back to 3500 BC, but some scientists think grain-based beer has been around much, much longer. Excavations have revealed potential ancient beer-brewing tools, and experiments have shown that you can make a low alcohol content drink with a simple mortar and pestle.
Early brews were likely not quite as strong as the ones we know today, but they would have produced the same kind of feel-good buzz. And once that relaxing effect became clear, it's easy to imagine humans wanted to make more of it.
As Jeffrey Khan, a clinical associate professor of psychiatry at New York-Presbyterian Hospital, argues, beer may have been exactly what we needed to suppress our desperate hunter-gatherer extincts to survive. It gave us time to relax, and awakened the desire to experiment, to invent, and to create art — all characteristics of flourishing civilizations.
And indeed we see evidence of beer in very early civilizations. Our ancestors made beer the centerpiece of religious ceremonies, used it heavily in celebrations that encouraged social bonding, buried their dead with it, and even used it as a form of currency in some areas.
And humans may have had more reasons to turn to beer before bread. Patrick McGovern, an archaeologist at the University of Pennsylvania, argues that beer is more nutritious than bread, and safer to drink than water since fermentation kills off pathogens.
Of course not everyone subscribes to the idea that beer domesticated us. Other archaeologists and historians point out how grain is easy to store and keeps for a long time. They say its reliability as a food source is what convinced humans to settle down and raise crops.
But there are puzzling inconsistencies. Studies in Mexico suggest that teosinte (an ancient form of maize) was much better suited for brewing beer than it was for making corn flower or bread tortillas. It took a long time for farmers to turn the grains into a more maize-like crop that could be used as the food staple it is today. So some think it must have been used for beer first.
Whichever came first, beer or bread, one thing is clear: Alcohol played a very important role in early civilizations."
I always love the term "some scientist", yeah there's always "some scientist" no matter how crazy the theory. The agricultural revolution didn't come about because of grain based alcohol and the original alcohols were more things like fermented honey and fruits than grains. Oddly enough, the werewolf legend may have partially come from rye bread that was contaminated with a mold that created LSD but apparently that was never linked properly or we might be eating that bread today lol.
It seems that our ability to process ethanol was likely due to a survival need with an odd side effect indeed.0 -
Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.1
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.
Well yes, that can be said of any belief. And often, there is very little that can be said to bring people around to another way of thinking because we already hold our beliefs steadfast.
I feel like this is proven over and over again on these forums with people insisting that their ways of eating is the best and should be followed by all others.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.
So is this a passive-aggressive way of saying that you think specific posters are rationalizing? I can't see any other reason for posting.
Perhaps it would be more helpful (or at least prevent people you didn't mean to insult from feeling insulted) to be direct?4 -
VioletRojo wrote: »EttaMaeMartin wrote: »snowflake930 wrote: »Personal opinion, I can definitely live without alcohol, and rarely use it, spend my calories on foods I enjoy.
Unlike cigarettes, alcohol does not physically affect other people, and it is personal choice whether or not you choose to use it.
The one thing I strenuously object to is drinking alcohol and driving a vehicle. Then your ARE affecting others and should be making the adult decision not to drive. Putting others at risk for this behavior is unacceptable under any circumstances. There are enough bad "sober" drivers out on the roads, we don't need people who are under the influence.
it affects everyone around you. do your research it's not just harming yourself. alcoholics are unable to use responsiblysnowflake930 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »snowflake930 wrote: »Personal opinion, I can definitely live without alcohol, and rarely use it, spend my calories on foods I enjoy.
Unlike cigarettes, alcohol does not physically affect other people, and it is personal choice whether or not you choose to use it.
The one thing I strenuously object to is drinking alcohol and driving a vehicle. Then your ARE affecting others and should be making the adult decision not to drive. Putting others at risk for this behavior is unacceptable under any circumstances. There are enough bad "sober" drivers out on the roads, we don't need people who are under the influence.
Use of alcohol *can* physically affect other people, though, well beyond just drinking-and-driving. I work in the court system and I'd hazard a guess that a very conservative minimum of 50% of domestic violence cases are triggered by alcohol use.
Right, I did not think of this "cause & effect", but would have to guess that the majority of adults indulging would not commit domestic abuse while under the influence, and all should not be denied because of a low percent who do.
I still think it is a personal, adult decision, whether or not we drink alcoholic beverages, and its use should not be legislated. Personal responsibility.
alcoholics cannot just use responsibly. they are unable. it is a disease not a choice. it affects almost anyone the alcoholic comes into contact with..eventually!
Not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. It's this all or nothing mindset that I don't understand.
Not only that, but there are different types of alcoholism. Addiction medicine is a science, and lots of people here are throwing around ridiculous misunderstandings of it (apparently based on watching too much TV).
I'm an alcoholic, but can absolutely drink responsibly. No DWI, no violence. And if you knew me at work (or non-socially), you'd never know it.
Addiction is "continued use in the face of adverse consequences." It doesn't mean or even imply a loss of control, although it sometimes manifests itself that way in some people.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.
So is this a passive-aggressive way of saying that you think specific posters are rationalizing? I can't see any other reason for posting.
Perhaps it would be more helpful (or at least prevent people you didn't mean to insult from feeling insulted) to be direct?
How did you read all that into a simple textbook statement on a thread about controversial behaviors?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.
So is this a passive-aggressive way of saying that you think specific posters are rationalizing? I can't see any other reason for posting.
Perhaps it would be more helpful (or at least prevent people you didn't mean to insult from feeling insulted) to be direct?
How did you read all that into a simple textbook statement on a thread about controversial behaviors?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)
It's very difficult to debate without the other side believing you are rationalizing. I mean, isn't the point of a debate to defend your position?2 -
I don't drink, but I used to. A lot. 12-18 beers every day and on weekends I'd wash that down with a pint or two of whiskey. I don't care to be around it now, but I also don't tell anyone they shouldn't drink.
What I find disheartening is when I used to go out after work with the crew, or I'm at a large family gathering, or even run into a few acquaintances when I'm out for dinner, I am constantly asked why I'm not drinking.
"Hey man, where's your beer?"
"Not drinking? What's wrong?"
and the ever popular "You need a drink"
It's to the point that I no longer go out after work, and I'll make a brief appearance at family gatherings but after about a half hour, I check out. I've been called no fun, a stick in the mud, boring, etc. One should never have to justify why they aren't drinking. But in so many (not all) aspects of society drinking has become the norm, and expected.
I don't give a *kitten* if you drink or not, and I'm not going to ask you why you drink. Why do people feel the need to ask me why I don't?
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Chef_Barbell wrote: »Because there is responsible heroin use in society... Right. Like I said... yeah... no.
I don't know if there is or isn't -- I haven't seen any data. It's an interesting question. I wonder if the fact that it's illegal, and that we hear about OD deaths and criminality associated with it on the new all the time, that we just kind of retroactively deduce that heroin is irresponsible by default. I think it's worth examining that.
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Heroin is a highly physically addictive drug. And anyone that uses it can become physically addicted. And involves severe withdrawal to stop using it. I have seen that addiction in my family. Some alcoholics are physically addicted and need medical supervision if they stop due to withdrawal. I have family members like that. But, that's usually after many decades of alcoholism. People can drink without developing a physical addiction. Usually the addiction is psychological for the mind and mood alterations. As a family member the heroin addiction is more distressing to me than the alcoholism.1
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BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heroin is a highly physically addictive drug. And anyone that uses it can become physically addicted. And involves severe withdrawal to stop using it. I have seen that addiction in my family. Some alcoholics are physically addicted and need medical supervision if they stop due to withdrawal. I have family members like that. But, that's usually after many decades of alcoholism. People can drink without developing a physical addiction. Usually the addiction is psychological for the mind and mood alterations. As a family member the heroin addiction is more distressing to me than the alcoholism.
On the other hand unsupervised alcohol withdrawal can kill you. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's not true of any other drug.0 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heroin is a highly physically addictive drug. And anyone that uses it can become physically addicted. And involves severe withdrawal to stop using it. I have seen that addiction in my family. Some alcoholics are physically addicted and need medical supervision if they stop due to withdrawal. I have family members like that. But, that's usually after many decades of alcoholism. People can drink without developing a physical addiction. Usually the addiction is psychological for the mind and mood alterations. As a family member the heroin addiction is more distressing to me than the alcoholism.
On the other hand unsupervised alcohol withdrawal can kill you. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's not true of any other drug.
I'm pretty sure heroine and meth can kill you unsupervised3 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heroin is a highly physically addictive drug. And anyone that uses it can become physically addicted. And involves severe withdrawal to stop using it. I have seen that addiction in my family. Some alcoholics are physically addicted and need medical supervision if they stop due to withdrawal. I have family members like that. But, that's usually after many decades of alcoholism. People can drink without developing a physical addiction. Usually the addiction is psychological for the mind and mood alterations. As a family member the heroin addiction is more distressing to me than the alcoholism.
On the other hand unsupervised alcohol withdrawal can kill you. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's not true of any other drug.
I did say in my post that physical alcohol withdrawal requires medical supervision. And you absolutely need medical supervision for heroin. In fact my family member has spent decades struggling through the addiction to the drugs they give to help people get off heroin. It's so difficult. With the alcohol, I still feel like there is hope. But, when she falls down the rabbit hole of heroin, I lose her for years. She becomes incoherent. And deceptive. We can't communicate. And I have almost physically lost her many times. Alcohol is killing her. The doctor says she will die if she doesn't stop (because of her pancreas). But, heroin can kill her in an instant. I'm not saying heroin is worse. But, it's definitely not better. And I have witnessed it to be more difficult and destructive. That's just my experience. I would feel so bad if she ever read this. But, we were doing so good. And now she has not spoken to me for a very long time because she is lost in the addiction again. I didn't think it would get to this place again. I hope I will get her back again someday.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Rationalization seems to be a hallmark of mankind on any subject.enabling us to be correct in any belief we choose. Science can be a useful tool in the process.
Certainly is.. Here's some of the crap my husband comes out with to rationalise his drinking.
- It's not as if i get off my face
- I'm not as bad as I used to be
- I'm not an alcoholic, I just enjoy a drink... every single day
- I don't drink as much as so and so
- I don't have to worry about my liver, only hard spirits cause liver damage, i only drink beer
- Alcohol is my only vice, I've already quit smoking ffs, don't make me give up EVERYTHING- aka as a guilt trip..4 -
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. My family member was told she will die if she doesn't stop drinking. At least for a year. She has to go to the hospital every morning for treatments just to be able to function to stay alive. But, she still says she is not an alcoholic. And that she isn't as bad as the other alcoholic family members.1
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BinaryPulsar wrote: »Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. My family member was told she will die if she doesn't stop drinking. At least for a year. She has to go to the hospital every morning for treatments just to be able to function to stay alive. But, she still says she is not an alcoholic. And that she isn't as bad as the other alcoholic family members.
Wow I need to know morrrrrrrrrre0 -
Karb_Kween wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. My family member was told she will die if she doesn't stop drinking. At least for a year. She has to go to the hospital every morning for treatments just to be able to function to stay alive. But, she still says she is not an alcoholic. And that she isn't as bad as the other alcoholic family members.
Wow I need to know morrrrrrrrrre
What do you mean? Are you wondering about the medical issues? It's complicated because she has a few different medical conditions. One she has had her whole life, but it was worsened by suboxone (for heroin withdrawal, but she became addicted). She has pancreatic disease from the alcohol. So, she can't digest a lot of foods. Oddly I can't digest a lot of foods either, but for a different reason, and mine was caused by being incorrectly prescribed meds by a doctor. The doctor says her pancreas is being destroyed and will turn into pancreatic cancer. My grandfather also has cirrhosis of the liver and alcohol induced dementia.1 -
I come from a family of addicts on my dad's side. Alcohol was the drug of choice for my uncles. Gambling has taken a toll on one of my family members. I thought I was addiction free and so happen to be setting in a class called CELEBRATE RECOVERY to understand the program that a friend of mine teaches. That was when I was trying to taper off of sugar and all grains for pain management. The chapter on Denial was when the light bulb went off and I understood I was a carb addict for the first time in my life. I did not know one could be a carb addict at the time but I really I was in the same boat as the gambler and alcoholic denying my condition that was going to take me out. It was not until I gave up denial that I was able to drive by Dairy Queen without stopping for a banana split. The addict I now understand is not likely to ever see his or her state for what it is. Giving up carbs was hard for the first two weeks but with my new understanding I was determined not to die prematurely over carbs. I do not like being out of control and I was when it came to my Way Of Eating.2
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BinaryPulsar wrote: »Karb_Kween wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. My family member was told she will die if she doesn't stop drinking. At least for a year. She has to go to the hospital every morning for treatments just to be able to function to stay alive. But, she still says she is not an alcoholic. And that she isn't as bad as the other alcoholic family members.
Wow I need to know morrrrrrrrrre
What do you mean? Are you wondering about the medical issues? It's complicated because she has a few different medical conditions. One she has had her whole life, but it was worsened by suboxone (for heroin withdrawal, but she became addicted). She has pancreatic disease from the alcohol. So, she can't digest a lot of foods. Oddly I can't digest a lot of foods either, but for a different reason, and mine was caused by being incorrectly prescribed meds by a doctor. The doctor says her pancreas is being destroyed and will turn into pancreatic cancer. My grandfather also has cirrhosis of the liver and alcohol induced dementia.
That's terrible
I was just wondering to compare to myself .. everybody says I drink alot and stuff1 -
I'm troubled by the effort to inject the "you are rationalizing" argument to support one side of the argument vs. another. Obviously addicts rationalize, however. When I was drinking (and I knew I drank problematically from the beginning -- I remember thinking really early on "I'm going to have to stop some time," and just kept pushing back when that date was -- end of college, end of my 20s, so on). I wasn't going to come out and say to someone that I thought I was an alcoholic and said stupid stuff like "yeah, really low tolerance and sometimes I just drink too fast" or things like that and definitely played off socially appropriate ways to be into alcohol, but I knew for myself that it was a problem. I'd compare different things to myself and be "yeah, I don't do that" or "so-and-so does that too, it must not be as messed up as I'd worried, since he's a relatively normal person with an okay life," but for me that wasn't convincing myself I wasn't an alcoholic (I have too much in my family to have been in denial about that), but that I was still a "functional alcoholic." I thought so long as I was functional and could hide (or pretend to myself I was hiding) it from others, it was just a private quirk and not something I had to stop (yet). It was wrong, but everyone has some stuff they do that's wrong, right?
Even at the time I am pretty sure I knew I was rationalizing it -- I've always been pretty aware while rationalizing.
But even though my own "I'm not a drunk, I'm just into wine" things were BS (although I really was into wine too, which made it somewhat harder when I stopped, since I missed that aspect) doesn't mean that someone else who says "I just like a red with a good steak" or points out that she never actually gets drunk, but just likes a glass with dinner must be BS too. The problem with using "ha! rationalizing!" or "ha! denial!" as an argument is that the other person ends up getting accused of that no matter what he or she says (unless it's "okay, you win, we should all think about it like you"). I don't therefore find that helpful as a discussion tactic.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I come from a family of addicts on my dad's side. Alcohol was the drug of choice for my uncles. Gambling has taken a toll on one of my family members. I thought I was addiction free and so happen to be setting in a class called CELEBRATE RECOVERY to understand the program that a friend of mine teaches. That was when I was trying to taper off of sugar and all grains for pain management. The chapter on Denial was when the light bulb went off and I understood I was a carb addict for the first time in my life. I did not know one could be a carb addict at the time but I really I was in the same boat as the gambler and alcoholic denying my condition that was going to take me out. It was not until I gave up denial that I was able to drive by Dairy Queen without stopping for a banana split. The addict I now understand is not likely to ever see his or her state for what it is. Giving up carbs was hard for the first two weeks but with my new understanding I was determined not to die prematurely over carbs. I do not like being out of control and I was when it came to my Way Of Eating.
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I also don't think anyone in this discussion is rationalizing within the discussion.
Also just want to say that I really do have a low tolerance. One six ounce glass of wine keeps me very buzzed all night. One nine ounce glass is usually ok too. Two glasses is too drunk for me. Though if it's mixed drinks like gin and tonic with 1.5 ounces gin, then I can have two. Three ounces is a good amount for me. But, my GI tract can't handle alcohol. Went out last night and I was offered a free shot twice. I had to refuse.1
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