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Alcohol and Society

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  • Timshel_
    Timshel_ Posts: 22,841 Member
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    zamphir66 wrote: »
    I think many of us go through lots of mental gymnastics to justify consuming something that actually is bad for you.

    Welcome to freedom of choice where one man's sanity is another man's sin. There is no rational beyond your own for what you do. So I drink, but maybe you drive over the speed limit, which is something that is bad for others. Do I get to say my bad is worse than your bad? Or do you justify it by saying 5 mph over is nothing and everyone does it (people just drive slow).

    Really I think this thread is about legalizing marijuana.

  • French_Peasant
    French_Peasant Posts: 1,639 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    CasperNaegle wrote: »
    "but you do not see the same events happening with heroine or other drugs involved."

    What the hell??

    I suppose it's true. We've never had heroin at an office Christmas party.

    Probably because it's illegal and all, among other reasons.

    Not sure why this is meaningful.

    That would create some pretty sweet shareholder value though, if all our business meetings consisted of tweakers tweaking on meth. Perhaps with a sprinkle of bath salts. Nom nom nom!
  • htimpaired
    htimpaired Posts: 1,404 Member
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    BinaryPulsar wrote: »
    Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
    I hope my questions above didn't come across as confrontational (someone marking questions as awesome seems odd somehow). I was genuinely curious about the answers. I'm finding the different in perceptions of societies very interesting.

    I think the difference of perception is going to greatly depend on a person's life experience. Obviously a non-drinker is going to experience things that a drinker has never experienced or thought about. And vice versa. It's like that with all life experiences. And this is no exception.

    I totally have learned how life experiences, and the families in which we are raised, fuel our beliefs about alcohol. I was raised by parents who rarely drank, save for a glass of wine at holiday dinners. Even then, they switched to sparkling cider so my sister and I could participate. They never went to bars. It just wasn't a part of my little world growing up.

    My ex-husband was raised in the opposite environment-mom was alcoholic, worked in a bar. Grandfather was an alcoholic. Not violent alcoholics or anything, but it was accepted that heavy drinking was the norm in the family. And he follows suit. He can't understand how I don't want to go to bars, but prefer to have drinks with close friends at home. I don't understand how he can go to a bar alone and just sit there with a beer and chat away all night. I'm not saying it's the reason he's the "ex". But it did lead to some conflict over the years, because what was normal for me wasn't normal for him and visa versa.
  • STLBADGIRL
    STLBADGIRL Posts: 1,693 Member
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    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    And lets be clear, I am not saying an occasional drinker is an alcoholic.

    http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/recovery-from-alcohol-vs-heroin

    http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/alcohol-more-dangerous-than-heroin/
  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
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    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    And lets be clear, I am not saying an occasional drinker is an alcoholic.

    http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/recovery-from-alcohol-vs-heroin

    http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/alcohol-more-dangerous-than-heroin/

    The thread isn't about alcoholism. It's about society's views on alcohol consumption.
  • STLBADGIRL
    STLBADGIRL Posts: 1,693 Member
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    Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    And lets be clear, I am not saying an occasional drinker is an alcoholic.

    http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/recovery-from-alcohol-vs-heroin

    http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/alcohol-more-dangerous-than-heroin/

    The thread isn't about alcoholism. It's about society's views on alcohol consumption.

    Got that...and my view is most consume too much and sometimes it crosses over to addiction.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    Definitely agree with what people are saying about how we all do something that another person might consider "bad". It's the whole throwing stones from glass houses thing.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    No one was making fun of you, but that alcohol is accepted at after work functions (or the Christmas party I mentioned) and heroin is not is hardly, well, surprising and is not informative.

    I think we all know that alcohol is socially acceptable. The debate seems to be over whether alcohol abuse is socially acceptable and whether not drinking is socially acceptable. Obviously it depends on the society we are talking about, but my personal experience (and I don't drink) is that the answers are no (not in the society I'm in, I know there are ones where it is) and yes.

    We covered the harm from alcohol already, that's not news, but that's largely because it's prevalent, because legal, not because it's exactly like heroin--that alcohol abuse causes harm (or that cigarette smoking causes harm) doesn't mean that it is exactly the same in all ways as other drugs which cause harm. Part of that (not the only part, IMO) is the cultural role of alcohol.

    I don't agree that what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is that it's legal. Wasn't it alarming during Prohibition too?
  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    No one was making fun of you

    This ^^

    Offering a differing opinion is not making fun it's discussion. Isn't that what forums are for?
  • JustinAnimal
    JustinAnimal Posts: 1,335 Member
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    Here's my two cents:

    Yes, as a society (and we can probably just say "the West," not just "North America"), we drink way too much. It is ridiculous that anti-tobacco campaigns are more prevalent than anti-alcohol ones. It's ridiculous that alcohol, dangerous that it is, is legal while marijuana is not (not everywhere in the U.S., anyway, and it's still looked upon with MUCH MORE stigma than alcohol is). Better believe that, if the marijuana haters out there had it, they would be showing us all of the data about how pot kills (when there's much better data on alcohol and it's relationship to death and disease, both immediate and delayed).

    However, I have to admit my absolute love for it! Not just as a consumable, but as an institution! A world-wide commonality! It's almost kind of endearing that we, as a race, find escapism so desirable (I know, not everyone, but it's no coincidence that people discovered and held on to alcohol all over the world). I should declare that I am a self-described functional alcoholic, in case that shows bias. I had a profession in Denmark who had shared a theory that humanity gave up the hunter-gatherer lifestyle (fresh meat) for agriculture (grain, which, back in the day, could pretty much be made into cold porridge... or maybe warm porridge). He agreed that the discovery of ferment-able grain and alcohol ultimately led to humanity giving up the H-G lifestyle. I'm sure people in here will poke plenty of holes in that one and I'm certainly not taking credit for it, but, again, it's something that endears all of humanity to me.

    The fact that monks came up with so many concoctions that brought them closer to their religion. It's no surprise that some of our dearest and tastiest spirits, liqueurs and cordials are named after monk sects (chartreuse, benedictine, Trappist ales, champagne, etc.). I think you could wrap up intoxicants, generally, into this category as well, at least as concerns our races fixation with, well, not feeling like ourselves.

    As much as the race would benefit from absolute removal of all alcohol, it sort of feels like removing film and visual art, music, creative architecture, etc.

    Just my two cents... or more like five.
  • JustinAnimal
    JustinAnimal Posts: 1,335 Member
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    Oh, man! Are we too butt hurt to keep talking?! I was just getting excited!
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    JustinAnimal wrote: »
    Oh, man! Are we too butt hurt to keep talking?! I was just getting excited!

    :laugh:
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    doggerland wrote: »
    Karb_Kween wrote: »
    BinaryPulsar wrote: »
    There are really only about two people doing the extreme no alcohol judgement thing in this thread. Meh, who cares. It's like when there is a thread about sex and people come in to say: I have never had a one night stand because I am classy. It's fine to never have a one night stand. It's following it with a stupid judgement that makes the whole environment feel uncomfortable and awkward. Like this thread that could have been an interesting conversation, but now it's just dealing with the judgment and reactions. Definitely a dumpster fire now.

    I'm scared to say anything because I imbibe

    I do, too. Sometimes more than I would prefer, but not in the quantities I used to.

    My thoughts about alcohol and society are around how alcohol use by women seems to be increasing. I just started reading this book "Drink: The Intimate Relationship Between Women and Alcohol" - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BATKXMU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1https://amazon.com/dp/B00BATKXMU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 so far, it's been really interesting.

    I read this also. I thought it was an interesting book.
  • sunnybeaches105
    sunnybeaches105 Posts: 2,831 Member
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    I'd respond after reading this entire thread, but it would probably drive me to drink
    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    And lets be clear, I am not saying an occasional drinker is an alcoholic.

    http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/recovery-from-alcohol-vs-heroin

    http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/alcohol-more-dangerous-than-heroin/

    Yea, and drugs should be legal too. If you don't want to drink then don't drink. I'm pretty much done with busybodies trying to tell other people what to eat, who to have sex with, and what they can smoke and drink. You're on the wrong side of history. Get used to it.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
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    There definitely isn't anything wrong with examining the challenges you faced. Talking openly about it. That can help others that might be going through the same thing. Discussion doesn't hurt. People can walk away from discussion. No one is forcing them to read or hear it. But, it can help others that need it. And it can help people understand different people's experiences.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    I don't agree that it's harder for the problem drinker to admit to the problem. IME, problem drinkers who make those kinds of excuses (and I did myself) know they are lying to themselves. (As IMO your own examples demonstrate.)
  • Wetcoaster
    Wetcoaster Posts: 1,788 Member
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    Hangover-free booze could replace the rough stuff by 2050

    http://www.theprovince.com/technology/science/hangover+free+booze+could+replace+rough+stuff+2050/12218177/story.html#

    Say goodbye to that Saturday morning hangover.

    David Nutt, an Imperial College professor and former government drugs advisor has reportedly patented 90 types of synthetic alcohol compounds that will usher in a new, and better, hangover-free world. According to Nutt, the substance will imitate the pleasurable effects of alcohol without any of the negative consequences.

    “It will be there alongside the scotch and the gin, they’ll dispense the alcosynth into your cocktail and then you’ll have the pleasure without damaging your liver and your heart,” he told The Independent.

    He claims that his team also developed a way to “max out” the effects, meaning that you could achieve an ideal level of inebriation without getting too “drunk.”

    The active ingredients used by Nutt are currently unknown – and the inventor won’t be giving away his secrets anytime soon. Others have tried creating similar synthetic compounds using benzodiazepine derivatives but Nutt says his product is different.

    Introducing a safe and viable hangover-free alcohol would obviously have a huge impact on not only public health but on the economy as well. The Center for Disease Control reported last year that excessive drinking in the U.S. cost the economy $250 billion (although food delivery services and Netflix probably both benefit nicely).

    Two of the “alcosynth” compounds are currently being tested extensively. One is described as “tasteless” and the other as slightly bitter.


  • Chef_Barbell
    Chef_Barbell Posts: 6,644 Member
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    STLBADGIRL wrote: »
    Its arguably debated that alcoholism is just as harmful than other unlawful drugs, if not more, because it is legal. I belong to support groups of both and you can't tell the families there it is a difference. Addiction is addiction. And what makes alcohol abuse so alarming is the fact that it is legal. I'm sure this thread wasn't suppose to turn in this direction, but with posters making fun of me because I used a comparison is beyond crazy to me when I stated my opinion.

    And lets be clear, I am not saying an occasional drinker is an alcoholic.

    http://www.12keysrehab.com/blog/recovery-from-alcohol-vs-heroin

    http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/alcohol-more-dangerous-than-heroin/

    No one is making fun of you. Your view has nothing to do with the OP and you are just projecting.

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