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Alcohol and Society
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Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
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I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.3
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MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.11 -
Again, depends on context, and the society you are talking about. People acting like idiots or jerks because drunk isn't encouraged or accepted in most contexts I am currently familiar with. Back in college, yeah, kind of.
(I don't drink personally, because I don't drink properly (and am well aware of the horrors of alcohol abuse on family members having grown up with that),* but I see that lots of people drink without becoming idiots or jerks.)
*Never thought it was normal or acceptable, though. I was hugely embarrassed by it in my family and hid it from friends, etc., along with everything else.4 -
My wife and I abuse each other with a bottle of wine every night. We close the blinds first so its our little secret.6
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MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The message "drink responsibly" IS supposed to apply to over-consumption as well as not drinking and driving. Companies that sell alcoholic beverages are not helped by reports of drunken violence or even 'general drunken douchebaggery'. Imagine how much they'd make and how much more accepted and consumed alcoholic beverages would be if people happily drank within their limits and that sort of thing never happened.
I do hear you on the 'it destroys families' front. It did for a branch of mine, though as I said earlier, if it hadn't been alcohol abuse it would have been abuse of some other substance. If you need an escape that badly, you find a way.5 -
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
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kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.8 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
That I agree with. But I generally don't notice if someone drinks or not. I only notice if they announce 'I'm a teetotaller' which usually leads them into why everyone else should be one too.
It's like religion. I don't care how/what someone believes. I only care when they start trying to convert me.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Is there scientific evidence that cannabis is more risky than tobacco? Or alcohol? I'd be interested in seeing that.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.4 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
Nausea and vomiting
Headache
Confusion
Loss of energy and fatigue
Restlessness and irritability
Muscle weakness, spasms or cramps
Seizures
Coma
Symptoms of drinking too much water. The dose makes the poison.20 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
That I agree with. But I generally don't notice if someone drinks or not. I only notice if they announce 'I'm a teetotaller' which usually leads them into why everyone else should be one too.
It's like religion. I don't care how/what someone believes. I only care when they start trying to convert me.
Ok yeah, that I understand and agree with. Right, I don't even notice who is or isn't drinking. And definitely wouldn't announce it or draw attention. Probably better if people think I am because then I have an excuse if I say something awkward or stumble. Even the people that say they are drinking a lot, I wouldn't have even noticed.0 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?3 -
This has gone on longer than I imagined. And I want to repeat that I'm in no way suggesting prohibition or anything of the sort.
I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.) Jim Gaffigan says it funnier than I do:
cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/stand-up-jim-gaffigan--people-who-don-t-drink
Then there's the saturation of advertising, all of which ends with "drink responsibly," yet none of which would be possible but for the 10-15% of people who have a serious issue with the stuff.
Earlier in the convo, someone made the point that the high harm rating of alcohol is because it's legal and accepted. That may well be true, but it seems like an awfully strong argument AGAINST decriminalizing anything else, right? I'm just taking that to it's logical conclusion.
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This has gone on longer than I imagined. And I want to repeat that I'm in no way suggesting prohibition or anything of the sort.
I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.) Jim Gaffigan says it funnier than I do:
cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/stand-up-jim-gaffigan--people-who-don-t-drink
Then there's the saturation of advertising, all of which ends with "drink responsibly," yet none of which would be possible but for the 10-15% of people who have a serious issue with the stuff.
Earlier in the convo, someone made the point that the high harm rating of alcohol is because it's legal and accepted. That may well be true, but it seems like an awfully strong argument AGAINST decriminalizing anything else, right? I'm just taking that to it's logical conclusion.
But alcohol is different than illicit drugs and tobacco. It's legal so should not be grouped with illegal drugs. Smoking tobacco affects everyone around the person smoking through second had smoke. If I'm sitting beside you a restaurant sipping my glass of wine it's unlikely to affect you in any way. If I'm sitting there smoking, everyone in the place will be affected. That's a significant difference.3 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Is there scientific evidence that cannabis is more risky than tobacco? Or alcohol? I'd be interested in seeing that.
I don't think it is (although I don't think there's no risk -- I know people who have done rehab to quit marijuana and had problems before not unlike those associated with abuse of alcohol and other drugs). I think we treat it differently because alcohol is so culturally prevalent that it cannot be reasonably outlawed (or so it was realized during Prohibition), but marijuana was (for most of US society) newer and less culturally normal/accepted, so it was believed that it could be kept illegal.
That's probably not a distinction that makes sense anymore, and I personally think marijuana ought to be legal (and will be within my lifetime throughout the US).1 -
mangrothian wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
You could also replace it with "Oreos" or "carrots" or heaven forbid, "coffee". @jmbmilholland was pointing out that your blanket statement of "it has no discernible favorable influence on health" is not what the review article is saying. There is a a favourable influence in regards to one part of your health, but unfortunately the risks that it poses to other areas of your body outweigh the one positive outcome they can see.
Personally, I need no justification to drink, and the assumption that people are making excuses / providing justification for drinking alcohol on this thread seems very narrow minded. I drink alcohol in moderation because I enjoy the flavour, the way it complements my food, and the enjoyment of having a beer with my hubby when I get home from work on a hot day or a glass of wine on Friday with my co-workers; I could also say the same thing about coffee or a cupcake (and alternate them quite frequently). I take no joy in binge drinking or getting beyond tipsy, and I won't drink something I don't like 'just because it's there'.
Out of all the things that can kill me in this world, alcohol is the least of my worries; I mean, I'm Australian. There's a good chance I could die from being bitten by a redback or whitetailed spider when I go to the toilet, and I'm more worried about melanoma from forgetting to 'slip slop slap' or lung cancer from my smoking years than I am about alcohol-induced cancer.
Bill Bryson has a great section on all the things that can kill you in his book "In a Sunburned Country":
"It is the home of the largest living thing on earth, the Great Barrier Reef, and of the largest monolith, Ayers Rock (or Uluru to use its now-official, more respectful Aboriginal name). It has more things that will kill you than anywhere else. Of the world's ten most poisonous snakes, all are Australian. Five of its creatures—the funnel web spider, box jellyfish, blue-ringed octopus, paralysis tick, and stonefish—are the most lethal of their type in the world. This is a country where even the fluffiest of caterpillars can lay you out with a toxic nip, where seashells will not just sting you but actually sometimes go for you. Pick up an innocuous cone shell from a Queensland beach, as innocent tourists are all too wont to do, and you will discover that the little fellow inside is not just astoundingly swift and testy but exceedingly venomous. If you are not stung or pronged to death in some unexpected manner, you may be fatally chomped by sharks or crocodiles, or carried helplessly out to sea by irresistible currents, or left to stagger to an unhappy death in the baking outback. It's a tough place."
I can't remember if that's where I read an emu will gut you with its talons as soon as look at you, but yeah. Lots of ways to die in Australia. Even the "dingo ate my baby" story ended up being ruled true, and the mother exonerated.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »But alcohol is different than illicit drugs and tobacco. It's legal so should not be grouped with illegal drugs. Smoking tobacco affects everyone around the person smoking through second had smoke. If I'm sitting beside you a restaurant sipping my glass of wine it's unlikely to affect you in any way. If I'm sitting there smoking, everyone in the place will be affected. That's a significant difference.
That seems a bit arbitrary, though. Pharmacologically speaking, alcohol fits the definition of drug. From Wiki:
Psychoactive drugs are chemical substances that affect the function of the central nervous system, altering perception, mood or consciousness.[9] They include alcohol, a depressant, and the stimulants nicotine and caffeine. These three are the most widely consumed psychoactive drugs worldwide[10] and are also considered as recreational drugs since they are used for pleasure rather than medicinal purposes.[11] Other recreational drugs include hallucinogens, opiates and amphetamines and some of these are also used in spiritual or religious settings. Some drugs can cause addiction [12] and all drugs can have side effects.[13] Excessive use of stimulants can promote stimulant psychosis. Many recreational drugs are illicit and international treaties such as the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs exist for the purpose of their prohibition.
For the record, I do wholeheartedly refer to my morning cuppa joe as my current drug of choice.
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I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.)
I do think we are culturally weird about alcohol (but that that is culture, and varies, not alcohol per se).
Drugs and alcohol simply refers to the fact that alcohol is a legal drug. We all know alcohol is a drug (tobacco and caffeine get left out of that entirely, and usually prescribed drugs that are, in fact, properly prescribed).
When I first stopped drinking I was paranoid that people would think I was super straight-laced for not drinking or, worse, an alcoholic (worse in my mind at the time). After a while I realized no one cares, not unless they have issues. Most people don't really notice unless the situation makes it impossible not to. At first I'd always feel like I needed an explanation ("I gave it up for Lent" or "on a health kick" or "trying to lose a few pounds" or "taking a break for a while"). After a while I realized I wasn't using them -- mostly people used to expect me to drink because they were used to it, and then they lost expectations and just saying "no, thanks" doesn't require more.
Still, it is amazing how often you get offered a drink (I got 2 free drinks from an airline when my seat was changed to a worse one, get invited to endless wine, beer, etc. tastings). But honestly, I think if I just didn't drink this wouldn't stand out to me. It's that I used to and stopped that it does, and it does less than it used to.
I seem to recall that you stopped relatively recently, so I suspect things will change as time goes on.2
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