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Alcohol and Society
Replies
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Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
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I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.3
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MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.11 -
Again, depends on context, and the society you are talking about. People acting like idiots or jerks because drunk isn't encouraged or accepted in most contexts I am currently familiar with. Back in college, yeah, kind of.
(I don't drink personally, because I don't drink properly (and am well aware of the horrors of alcohol abuse on family members having grown up with that),* but I see that lots of people drink without becoming idiots or jerks.)
*Never thought it was normal or acceptable, though. I was hugely embarrassed by it in my family and hid it from friends, etc., along with everything else.4 -
My wife and I abuse each other with a bottle of wine every night. We close the blinds first so its our little secret.6
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MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The message "drink responsibly" IS supposed to apply to over-consumption as well as not drinking and driving. Companies that sell alcoholic beverages are not helped by reports of drunken violence or even 'general drunken douchebaggery'. Imagine how much they'd make and how much more accepted and consumed alcoholic beverages would be if people happily drank within their limits and that sort of thing never happened.
I do hear you on the 'it destroys families' front. It did for a branch of mine, though as I said earlier, if it hadn't been alcohol abuse it would have been abuse of some other substance. If you need an escape that badly, you find a way.5 -
suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
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kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.8 -
BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
That I agree with. But I generally don't notice if someone drinks or not. I only notice if they announce 'I'm a teetotaller' which usually leads them into why everyone else should be one too.
It's like religion. I don't care how/what someone believes. I only care when they start trying to convert me.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Is there scientific evidence that cannabis is more risky than tobacco? Or alcohol? I'd be interested in seeing that.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.4 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
Nausea and vomiting
Headache
Confusion
Loss of energy and fatigue
Restlessness and irritability
Muscle weakness, spasms or cramps
Seizures
Coma
Symptoms of drinking too much water. The dose makes the poison.20 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »BinaryPulsar wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »xmichaelyx wrote: »we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc.
The problem isn't the alcohol; it's that the person you're describing is an a-hole.
I love drinking. I drink daily, sometimes to excess. I love beer and bourbon.
That said, I don't drink and drive, because I'm not an idiot. Addiction doesn't cause people to get DWIs or wreck their cars. Being an a-hole does.
Alcohol by itself is neither harmful nor helpful.Alcoholic behavior is not fun!
My gf and I are both very happy, functional, educated, well-paid alcoholics. It's tons of fun!
Cheers! And personally I have to say the most miserable people I know are all teetotalers....
...and there's a vast difference in people who don't drink and those who don't think anyone should drink.
This was my intention of my post. Just trying to clarify the misunderstanding.
That I agree with. But I generally don't notice if someone drinks or not. I only notice if they announce 'I'm a teetotaller' which usually leads them into why everyone else should be one too.
It's like religion. I don't care how/what someone believes. I only care when they start trying to convert me.
Ok yeah, that I understand and agree with. Right, I don't even notice who is or isn't drinking. And definitely wouldn't announce it or draw attention. Probably better if people think I am because then I have an excuse if I say something awkward or stumble. Even the people that say they are drinking a lot, I wouldn't have even noticed.0 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?3 -
This has gone on longer than I imagined. And I want to repeat that I'm in no way suggesting prohibition or anything of the sort.
I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.) Jim Gaffigan says it funnier than I do:
cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/stand-up-jim-gaffigan--people-who-don-t-drink
Then there's the saturation of advertising, all of which ends with "drink responsibly," yet none of which would be possible but for the 10-15% of people who have a serious issue with the stuff.
Earlier in the convo, someone made the point that the high harm rating of alcohol is because it's legal and accepted. That may well be true, but it seems like an awfully strong argument AGAINST decriminalizing anything else, right? I'm just taking that to it's logical conclusion.
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This has gone on longer than I imagined. And I want to repeat that I'm in no way suggesting prohibition or anything of the sort.
I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.) Jim Gaffigan says it funnier than I do:
cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/stand-up-jim-gaffigan--people-who-don-t-drink
Then there's the saturation of advertising, all of which ends with "drink responsibly," yet none of which would be possible but for the 10-15% of people who have a serious issue with the stuff.
Earlier in the convo, someone made the point that the high harm rating of alcohol is because it's legal and accepted. That may well be true, but it seems like an awfully strong argument AGAINST decriminalizing anything else, right? I'm just taking that to it's logical conclusion.
But alcohol is different than illicit drugs and tobacco. It's legal so should not be grouped with illegal drugs. Smoking tobacco affects everyone around the person smoking through second had smoke. If I'm sitting beside you a restaurant sipping my glass of wine it's unlikely to affect you in any way. If I'm sitting there smoking, everyone in the place will be affected. That's a significant difference.3 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Is there scientific evidence that cannabis is more risky than tobacco? Or alcohol? I'd be interested in seeing that.
I don't think it is (although I don't think there's no risk -- I know people who have done rehab to quit marijuana and had problems before not unlike those associated with abuse of alcohol and other drugs). I think we treat it differently because alcohol is so culturally prevalent that it cannot be reasonably outlawed (or so it was realized during Prohibition), but marijuana was (for most of US society) newer and less culturally normal/accepted, so it was believed that it could be kept illegal.
That's probably not a distinction that makes sense anymore, and I personally think marijuana ought to be legal (and will be within my lifetime throughout the US).1 -
mangrothian wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
You could also replace it with "Oreos" or "carrots" or heaven forbid, "coffee". @jmbmilholland was pointing out that your blanket statement of "it has no discernible favorable influence on health" is not what the review article is saying. There is a a favourable influence in regards to one part of your health, but unfortunately the risks that it poses to other areas of your body outweigh the one positive outcome they can see.
Personally, I need no justification to drink, and the assumption that people are making excuses / providing justification for drinking alcohol on this thread seems very narrow minded. I drink alcohol in moderation because I enjoy the flavour, the way it complements my food, and the enjoyment of having a beer with my hubby when I get home from work on a hot day or a glass of wine on Friday with my co-workers; I could also say the same thing about coffee or a cupcake (and alternate them quite frequently). I take no joy in binge drinking or getting beyond tipsy, and I won't drink something I don't like 'just because it's there'.
Out of all the things that can kill me in this world, alcohol is the least of my worries; I mean, I'm Australian. There's a good chance I could die from being bitten by a redback or whitetailed spider when I go to the toilet, and I'm more worried about melanoma from forgetting to 'slip slop slap' or lung cancer from my smoking years than I am about alcohol-induced cancer.
Bill Bryson has a great section on all the things that can kill you in his book "In a Sunburned Country":
"It is the home of the largest living thing on earth, the Great Barrier Reef, and of the largest monolith, Ayers Rock (or Uluru to use its now-official, more respectful Aboriginal name). It has more things that will kill you than anywhere else. Of the world's ten most poisonous snakes, all are Australian. Five of its creatures—the funnel web spider, box jellyfish, blue-ringed octopus, paralysis tick, and stonefish—are the most lethal of their type in the world. This is a country where even the fluffiest of caterpillars can lay you out with a toxic nip, where seashells will not just sting you but actually sometimes go for you. Pick up an innocuous cone shell from a Queensland beach, as innocent tourists are all too wont to do, and you will discover that the little fellow inside is not just astoundingly swift and testy but exceedingly venomous. If you are not stung or pronged to death in some unexpected manner, you may be fatally chomped by sharks or crocodiles, or carried helplessly out to sea by irresistible currents, or left to stagger to an unhappy death in the baking outback. It's a tough place."
I can't remember if that's where I read an emu will gut you with its talons as soon as look at you, but yeah. Lots of ways to die in Australia. Even the "dingo ate my baby" story ended up being ruled true, and the mother exonerated.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »But alcohol is different than illicit drugs and tobacco. It's legal so should not be grouped with illegal drugs. Smoking tobacco affects everyone around the person smoking through second had smoke. If I'm sitting beside you a restaurant sipping my glass of wine it's unlikely to affect you in any way. If I'm sitting there smoking, everyone in the place will be affected. That's a significant difference.
That seems a bit arbitrary, though. Pharmacologically speaking, alcohol fits the definition of drug. From Wiki:
Psychoactive drugs are chemical substances that affect the function of the central nervous system, altering perception, mood or consciousness.[9] They include alcohol, a depressant, and the stimulants nicotine and caffeine. These three are the most widely consumed psychoactive drugs worldwide[10] and are also considered as recreational drugs since they are used for pleasure rather than medicinal purposes.[11] Other recreational drugs include hallucinogens, opiates and amphetamines and some of these are also used in spiritual or religious settings. Some drugs can cause addiction [12] and all drugs can have side effects.[13] Excessive use of stimulants can promote stimulant psychosis. Many recreational drugs are illicit and international treaties such as the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs exist for the purpose of their prohibition.
For the record, I do wholeheartedly refer to my morning cuppa joe as my current drug of choice.
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I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.)
I do think we are culturally weird about alcohol (but that that is culture, and varies, not alcohol per se).
Drugs and alcohol simply refers to the fact that alcohol is a legal drug. We all know alcohol is a drug (tobacco and caffeine get left out of that entirely, and usually prescribed drugs that are, in fact, properly prescribed).
When I first stopped drinking I was paranoid that people would think I was super straight-laced for not drinking or, worse, an alcoholic (worse in my mind at the time). After a while I realized no one cares, not unless they have issues. Most people don't really notice unless the situation makes it impossible not to. At first I'd always feel like I needed an explanation ("I gave it up for Lent" or "on a health kick" or "trying to lose a few pounds" or "taking a break for a while"). After a while I realized I wasn't using them -- mostly people used to expect me to drink because they were used to it, and then they lost expectations and just saying "no, thanks" doesn't require more.
Still, it is amazing how often you get offered a drink (I got 2 free drinks from an airline when my seat was changed to a worse one, get invited to endless wine, beer, etc. tastings). But honestly, I think if I just didn't drink this wouldn't stand out to me. It's that I used to and stopped that it does, and it does less than it used to.
I seem to recall that you stopped relatively recently, so I suspect things will change as time goes on.2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »But alcohol is different than illicit drugs and tobacco. It's legal so should not be grouped with illegal drugs. Smoking tobacco affects everyone around the person smoking through second had smoke. If I'm sitting beside you a restaurant sipping my glass of wine it's unlikely to affect you in any way. If I'm sitting there smoking, everyone in the place will be affected. That's a significant difference.
That seems a bit arbitrary, though. Pharmacologically speaking, alcohol fits the definition of drug. From Wiki:
Psychoactive drugs are chemical substances that affect the function of the central nervous system, altering perception, mood or consciousness.[9] They include alcohol, a depressant, and the stimulants nicotine and caffeine. These three are the most widely consumed psychoactive drugs worldwide[10] and are also considered as recreational drugs since they are used for pleasure rather than medicinal purposes.[11] Other recreational drugs include hallucinogens, opiates and amphetamines and some of these are also used in spiritual or religious settings. Some drugs can cause addiction [12] and all drugs can have side effects.[13] Excessive use of stimulants can promote stimulant psychosis. Many recreational drugs are illicit and international treaties such as the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs exist for the purpose of their prohibition.
For the record, I do wholeheartedly refer to my morning cuppa joe as my current drug of choice.
Not sure of your point. You think legal substances should be seen the same as illegal by society? Why did you single out alcohol then? Why aren't we talking about society's views on the widespread use of mood altering prescription drugs?0 -
If you drink every day (as you would overeat everyday), your risk of liver damage increases. I understand your reaction to my use of the word "poison", nobody would willingly drink poison as it goes against our natural instinct of self preservation, however we do - and it is encouraged.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Wow, this is evidence of just how misinformed the public is thanks to the government and alcohol/pharmaceutical industries. Tobacco: 480,000 deaths/year Alcohol: 88,000 deaths/year (not including alcohol related incidents) Cannabis: 0 deaths/year
Now you may not be into numbers but I'm pretty sure this is sufficient evidence that cannabis is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco.4 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
If you drink every day (as you would overeat everyday), your risk of liver damage increases. I understand your reaction to my use of the word "poison", nobody would willingly drink poison as it goes against our natural instinct of self preservation, however we do - and it is encouraged.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?
No, I believe you are wrong but would welcome any scientific info that would back up your statement. Risk of liver disease does not increase with drinking within recommended limits, which includes every day. It goes up with drinking over the limits, as it does with overeating through fatty liver disease.
Edit: for reference
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804014
In terms of liver-related morbidity and mortality, obesity is even more dangerous than alcohol consumption, a study of more than 100,000 women has shown.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Wow, this is evidence of just how misinformed the public is thanks to the government and alcohol/pharmaceutical industries. Tobacco: 480,000 deaths/year Alcohol: 88,000 deaths/year (not including alcohol related incidents) Cannabis: 0 deaths/year
Now you may not be into numbers but I'm pretty sure this is sufficient evidence that cannabis is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco.
I run a pharmacovigilance team and head up epidemiology, so you might say I'm into numbers.
Smoking marijuana carries (the preferred delivery system) the same medical risks as tobacco these are nearly identical carcinogens - the other risk being Tetrahydrocannabinol, which like alcohol is fine, even beneficial in small doses, but carries the same risk with overuse and long term use. The two risks together are compounding, hence the risk is greater.5 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
If you drink every day (as you would overeat everyday), your risk of liver damage increases. I understand your reaction to my use of the word "poison", nobody would willingly drink poison as it goes against our natural instinct of self preservation, however we do - and it is encouraged.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?
No, I believe you are wrong but would welcome any scientific info that would back up your statement. Risk of liver disease does not increase with drinking within recommended limits, which includes every day. It goes up with drinking over the limits, as it does with overeating through fatty liver disease.
Edit: for reference
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804014
In terms of liver-related morbidity and mortality, obesity is even more dangerous than alcohol consumption, a study of more than 100,000 women has shown.
That is why I said if you drank the same way you overeat, it increases. Overeating is not "within recommended limits".0 -
This has gone on longer than I imagined. And I want to repeat that I'm in no way suggesting prohibition or anything of the sort.
I just think it's interesting that U.S. society/culture is a bit schizoid about alcohol. Consider the phrase "drugs and alcohol" -- as if alcohol were something other than a drug. There's social censure around illicit drugs, and now tobacco, but alcohol is totally normalized to the point that I get odd looks from peers when I say I don't drink. The automatic assumption is I'm either hyper-religious or an alcoholic. (For the record, I'm an alcoholic.) Jim Gaffigan says it funnier than I do:
cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/stand-up-jim-gaffigan--people-who-don-t-drink
Then there's the saturation of advertising, all of which ends with "drink responsibly," yet none of which would be possible but for the 10-15% of people who have a serious issue with the stuff.
Earlier in the convo, someone made the point that the high harm rating of alcohol is because it's legal and accepted. That may well be true, but it seems like an awfully strong argument AGAINST decriminalizing anything else, right? I'm just taking that to it's logical conclusion.
What? It's only 3 pages! You're familiar with the debate section, right?
I think your thread has been very interesting. You mention our schizoid approach to alcohol. Earlier I mentioned Michael Pollan's book, and the chapters on the apple (cider) and pot. I found what I think is the full chapter on pot, and pasted here is the relevant thought on why one drug is arbitrarily approved in a society and others are demonized (to the extent that pot will nowadays get the SWAT team called on your house, which you will then lose to asset forfeiture while you serve a life sentence in prison, for something theoretically not that much worse than alcohol). And regrettably, while many people are able to use the "approved" drug without many adverse consequences, others and their families are caught up in the meat grinder, with their lives destroyed and even snuffed out.
First the link to the full chapter (the whole book is worth reading):
http://michaelpollanfan.blogspot.com/2015/04/intoxication-plant-marijuana.html
And the snip:
"With the solitary exception of the Eskimos, there isn’t a people on Earth who doesn’t use psychoactive plants to effect a change in consciousness, and there probably never has been. As for the Eskimos, their exception only proves the rule: historically, Eskimos didn’t use psychoactive plants because none of them will grow in the Arctic. (As soon as the white man introduced the Eskimo to fermented grain, he immediately joined the consciousness changers.) What this suggests is that the desire to alter one’s experience of consciousness may be universal.
Nor is the desire limited to adults. Andrew Weil, who has written two valuable books treating consciousness changing “as a basic human activity,” points out that even young children seek out altered states of awareness. They will spin until violently dizzy (thereby producing visual hallucinations), deliberately hyperventilate, throttle one another to the point of fainting, inhale any fumes they can find, and, on a daily basis, seek the rush of energy supplied by processed sugar (sugar being the child’s plant drug of choice).
As the examples from childhood suggest, using drugs is not the only way to achieve altered states of consciousness. Activities as different as meditation, fasting, exercise, amusement park rides, horror movies, extreme sports, sensory or sleep deprivation, chanting, music, eating spicy foods, and taking extreme risks of all kinds have the power to change the texture of our mental experience to one degree or another. We may eventually discover that what psychoactive plants do to the brain closely resembles, at a biochemical level, the effects of these other activities.
Human cultures vary widely in the plants they use to gratify the desire for a change of mind, but all cultures (save the Eskimo) sanction at least one such plant and, just as invariably, strenuously forbid certain others. Along with the temptation seems to come the taboo. The reasons for drawing the bright line here and not there generally make more sense within the culture itself, rooted as they are in its values and traditions, than they do outside it. But the reasons cultures give for promoting one plant and forbidding another are remarkably fluid in both time and space; one culture’s panacea is often another culture’s panapathogen (root of all evil); think of the traditional role of alcohol in the Christian West as compared to the Islamic East. Indeed, one culture’s panacea can, over time, transmogrify into that same culture’s panapathogen, as happened to opiates in the West between the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.*
Historians can explain these shifts much better than scientists can, since they usually have less to do with the intrinsic nature of the various molecules involved than with the powers that cultures ascribe to them and the changing needs of those cultures. Cannabis in American culture has at various times held the power to foster violence (in the 1930s) and indolence (today): same molecule, opposite effect. Promoting certain plant drugs and forbidding others may just be something cultures do as a way of defining themselves or reinforcing their cohesion. It’s hardly surprising that something as magical as a plant with the power to alter people’s feelings and thoughts would inspire both fetishes and taboos."3 -
MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
If you drink every day (as you would overeat everyday), your risk of liver damage increases. I understand your reaction to my use of the word "poison", nobody would willingly drink poison as it goes against our natural instinct of self preservation, however we do - and it is encouraged.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?
No, I believe you are wrong but would welcome any scientific info that would back up your statement. Risk of liver disease does not increase with drinking within recommended limits, which includes every day. It goes up with drinking over the limits, as it does with overeating through fatty liver disease.
Edit: for reference
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804014
In terms of liver-related morbidity and mortality, obesity is even more dangerous than alcohol consumption, a study of more than 100,000 women has shown.
That is why I said if you drank the same way you overeat, it increases. Overeating is not "within recommended limits".
Well now I'm confused. If you agree that alcohol is not harmful unless over-consumed, why do you consider it "poison"?3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »suppose we replaced "alcohol" with "heroin" or even "marihuana" in the replies above...
"Although you are misrepresenting what it says about health influences ("it has no discernible favorable influence on health"), the article also agrees with my contention that one must take a sensible approach to reap the health benefits and avoid the douchebaggery of heavy heroin consumption:"
Again, lots of justification. I wonder why.
The issue is one of risk management. This is why we classify and restrict certain products that have a high inherent risk of abuse, such as heroin (a Schedule 1 pharmaceutical) and alcohol (regulated, but sold OTC) accordingly.
Adding clarity to your point would help the conversation.
Would you concur with our government that marijuana is riskier than alcohol? I don't. I know lots of these types of people:Christine_72 wrote: »My husband and i are polar opposites when it comes to alcohol.. He drinks everyday, I drink maybe once a year if there's a social gathering.
He thinks drinking everyday is normal- I think it's abnormal.
He grew up in a drinking culture, all of his family/friends are big drinkers - None of my family or friends are big drinkers, and like me, only drink socially aka very rarely.
Personally, being with my husband has completely made me hate alcohol. Since being with him i have seen close up how damaging it is
I can relate to this, and we have spent A LOT of money on his alcohol, three DWI's, increased car insurance premiums, damaged vehicles, the cost of three rehabs, fines, etc. And not to mention time lost from work, injures, fighting between us, and me spending about 15 years, basically, raising our two children by myself while he was out with friends so that I could keep them away from as much of this behavior as possible.
And no potheads who have suffered similar consequences.
I would concur that cannabis carries more risk than tobacco or alcohol, but that this risk is acceptable and should be managed much in the same way we (the USA) manage alcohol and/or tobacco. To list cannabis as a schedule I is absurd and not reflective of scientific evidence.
Wow, this is evidence of just how misinformed the public is thanks to the government and alcohol/pharmaceutical industries. Tobacco: 480,000 deaths/year Alcohol: 88,000 deaths/year (not including alcohol related incidents) Cannabis: 0 deaths/year
Now you may not be into numbers but I'm pretty sure this is sufficient evidence that cannabis is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco.
I run a pharmacovigilance team and head up epidemiology, so you might say I'm into numbers.
Smoking marijuana carries (the preferred delivery system) the same medical risks as tobacco these are nearly identical carcinogens - the other risk being Tetrahydrocannabinol, which like alcohol is fine, even beneficial in small doses, but carries the same risk with overuse and long term use. The two risks together are compounding, hence the risk is greater.
That may be true on paper, but how many people who smoke marijuana do so in quantities equal to those that smoke tobacco?2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »
If you drink every day (as you would overeat everyday), your risk of liver damage increases. I understand your reaction to my use of the word "poison", nobody would willingly drink poison as it goes against our natural instinct of self preservation, however we do - and it is encouraged.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »MsAmandaNJ wrote: »I think it's scary how acceptable alcohol abuse is in society. They add "drink responsibly" to their advertisements (as if they're trying to help) - that seems to only apply to not driving after drinking, never moderation. If you drank less of their poison, they would make less money. Being responsible when drinking means not turning into a monster d-bag or not acting like a fool "because I was drunk", please add more examples if you'd like. It destroys families, not everyone affected drinks.
The same could be said of the abuse of many substances, food included. Parents so obese they are diseased or unable to engage in activities with children. Spouses losing interest in sex. Obese children because parents don't know or want to teach them proper eating habits. Obesity related illnesses on the rise.
Just because something can be abused does not make it poison.
Dizziness, slurred speech, decreased vision, vomiting, loss of motor function - you are literally poisoning yourself.
If I overeat every day my risk of disease is higher than if I drink every day. So which is more poisonous really?
No, I believe you are wrong but would welcome any scientific info that would back up your statement. Risk of liver disease does not increase with drinking within recommended limits, which includes every day. It goes up with drinking over the limits, as it does with overeating through fatty liver disease.
Edit: for reference
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/804014
In terms of liver-related morbidity and mortality, obesity is even more dangerous than alcohol consumption, a study of more than 100,000 women has shown.
That is why I said if you drank the same way you overeat, it increases. Overeating is not "within recommended limits".
Well now I'm confused. If you agree that alcohol is not harmful unless over-consumed, why do you consider it "poison"?
Because that's how the body treats it.1
This discussion has been closed.
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