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CICO is not the whole equation
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »NatureOfMan wrote: »For the most part CICO works. Using CICO can transform someone from being overweight to someone being healthy, however anyone who believe CICO is the be all and end all needs to up their knowledge on how hormones in the body operate.
If you believe that, then you dont know actually understand CICO is. Its an energy balance equation. Hormones effect metabolism and other factors which fall into CICO.
I think this is the main thing people who complain about CICO don't understand. Things like health issues, TEF, etc. are still part of the CICO equation. The number MFP spits out for you might not work for you, but that doesn't mean CICO doesn't work for you. It just means you don't know all of the variables in the equation.
I agree. CICO cannot be wrong. However in no way does it explain Why we tend to overeat.
Nor is it designed to do so.
This observation is like saying that understanding how a car works doesn't explain why someone would want to drive to a Nickleback concert.
This has to be my favorite forum post of all time.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »I will backtrack a bit by saying that not every calorie is equal.
There's the thermic effect of food (250 grams of protein burns about 250 more calories than 250 grams of sugar)
They also vary in nutrition, fullness, and effect on hormones.
But weight-loss can be had with any type of food/calorie
A calorie is a unit of measurement - the "amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere". You're mixing up a unit of measurement with food.
No I'm not.
250 grams of protein is approx. 1000 calories protein. It has a TEF of 30-35%, which means for those 1,000 calories "IN" your body will expend about 300-350 calories to metabolize them.
For the same amount of carbs, it would expend about 60
This isn't totally correct. While TEF for protein is roughly 20-35%, TEF for carbs is roughly 5-20%, or an average difference of about 15% or 150 calories on average per 1000 calories.
In practice, it isn't that pronounced. No one eats 100% carbs or 100% protein. A dieting woman who averages 1500 calories could in theory eat 250 grams of protein, but that would make her diet very limited in variety and could greatly affect adherence, which is really the single most important factor in weight loss beyond energy balance. Would going that high be worth the extra 80-100 calories burned over what she would burn on a more reasonable split? For practical purposes, TEF is not significant and would fall within the acceptable margin of error.
I was just "backtracking a bit" to say that a calorie of macro is not 100% equal to a calorie of another.
The 20% TEF from a carb is fiber1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
BMR is the big deal! It really is. RMR matters also. It all matters in the CICO equation.Russellb97 wrote: »There is no doubt in my mind that CICO is the ultimate deciding factor when it comes to losing weight.
The issue with CICO and the reason why I personally used to struggle with my weight is I focused on calories in and exercise and ignored the most important part of the CO side of the equation, basal metabolic rate. BMR is about 70% of the calories-out side. This is HUGE!
To better grasp the enormous effect this has on weight loss. Pretend for a moment CO is now CI and BMR represents one meal, and exercise, TEF and NEAT combine for the other two meals. If your daily calorie goal was 2500 calories, your 2 "other" meals would be 375 calories each and your one "BMR meal" would be 1,750 calories. BMR is pretty damn important right?
Yet, typcial weight-loss activities; calorie restriction and cardio exercise will have a negative impact on BMR which is one of the reasons CICO doesn't always produce results in many of us. CICO is just another "Paper Champion"
A lot of people have better burn rates than I do. I have to work with the engine that I've got and put the best quality fuel in there. I don't have a big enough calorie deficit to play around with and need to eat healthy and sensibly every meal.
There are tricks to that though if you REALLY want something that's just out of your calorie reach. I have a lower BMR due to various hormonal issues and it's pretty much workable if you know how to work it. Maintenance, or slightly over maintenance, days are not that scary. My TDEE is consistently 180-200 calories under what calculators predict and the difference is creeping up. I sometimes feel robbed that I'm probably going to have a sedentary maintenance of about 1400 calories, but I do the "woe is me" thing for a few seconds and move on, realizing I can still work with that the way I work with a similar budget now. Sulking won't make it any easier for me. I'd just have to take fast days more often than I would have if my BMR was closer to average, I would have to plan certain meals very carefully, and I may need to be as active as I can manage. No big deal. I will still be able to eat all the things I like, enjoy my social gatherings and do/eat all the things I like to do/eat. We just tend to psych ourselves out and make things harder on ourselves than they really are. It is what it is, so might as well enjoy the good moments and foods when the opportunity presents itself and worry about feeling sorry for myself later.
Good points. I need to work with what I have! It isn't as bad as it could be. That is for sure.1 -
Russellb97 wrote: »wow, still going..
CICO is MATH ..it is not hormones, it is not a way of eating, it is not eating oreos all day, it is not negated by a medical condition, etc, etc,etc..
it is a math formula that says calories consumed - calories burned = calorie deficit/maintenance/surplus
wow
We agree in this subject...not sure why people try to turn it in to any more than what it is.
They are desperately seeking anything...anything that points away from personal responsibility and accountability.
sad, but true...
Maybe true for some but I think the majority are doing the best they can and with good intentions.
I agree that their intentions are good, but this is often diminished by the prevailing victim mentality. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of people who are obese would state that they are doing the best they can.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The OP is not wrong in her critique of CICO.. It does not offer an all encompassing solution to our individual definitions of health
If you had read the responses (even the very first page or two), you'd see that the main objection was to OP's assumption that anyone at all was claiming that CICO defined health or nutrition. CICO is what controls weight loss. Obviously one should also eat a nutritious diet.CICO is not always within our individual control if we are not given the right parameters.
This, I disagree with. If you respond to results it is, whether we count accurately or not. If I think I burn 1500 being sedentary, burn on average 500 a day through activity, and eat 1500, I should lose a lb a week. If something is off (my BMR is lower than I think, my exercise is overestimated, my calories are badly counted) and I maintain over time, I can tighten up my logging, etc. OR I can just exercise a bit more (if possible) and eat a bit less until I am getting the results I want.The marathon runner that runs 1 mile barely expends any calories. The same distance for an overweight office worker might be something completely different.
Actually, the main difference is weight. Running calories are easy to figure with weight and distance and time (to back out what you would have burned anyway, not important for just a mile, of course).
But again exact numbers aren't necessary. If you are running 40 miles per week and assume it's about 4000 calories and are losing less than expected, it might be less (it would be for a lot of people).
To your first point, valid. I don't think I was arguing to the contrary of your contention. Perhaps just a slight restating of the facts that we both seem to understand. No issue there.
Fair enough. Starting with "the OP wasn't wrong" without reading through the responses which were pointing out she was arguing a straw man was the issue. I don't think many would disagree that for health and nutrition there's more to it than calories.To your second, Again, if you care to read my post thoroughly. The "parameters" are individualized and therefore must be tweaked based on response.
Where I was disagreeing was the claim that CICO is not within our individual control."Setpoint" as we call it in which the real RMR and rate of exertion are calculated takes weeks of time.
Sure, and rate of exertion can change. Point is it's not hard. You don't even need to know the term RMR. I figured out how to lose weight (pre MFP--I maintained for years and then had some stuff in my life, regained, and then discovered MFP and the calorie counting approach, which fit my personality) in the most simplistic of all possible ways. Basically I wrote down what I'd been eating, looked at it, figured out I could cut calories without noticing too much, and added in exercise which I gradually increased to a level I found appealing (I like endurance running and biking so largely based on training for those kinds of events).A program as outlined by MFP can only give you a general starting point in which we adjusted above and below to find metabolic equilibrium. I don't understand how you disagree with my assertion that parameters dictate control, as you've stated that you can exercise more (adjusting exercise variable), or tightening up logging (presumably adjusting diet variable). Those are parameters, and those are not usually factors that the average dieter is able or willing to determine.
I disagree with the idea that this is complicated, that it's a flaw with CICO as an approach, that we need to worry about specifically calculating TDEE or the like (I do that, but I think that's because it's interesting to me -- I lost as well following the same approach but without any specific numbers), and -- most of all -- that understanding the parameters (I'd simplify and call them the major variables) "are not usually factors that the average dieter is able or willing to determine."
Maybe I'm misreading but you seem to be talking down a bit to the general reader or dieter or MFP participant and I don't think that's necessary. But again, I could well be wrong about what you are intending to say and am open to listening.Lastly, to my knowledge there has yet to be be any conformable measuring device to determine calories expended during prolonged exercise (endurance or resistance).
On this, I'd say again, doesn't matter. It's close enough. I don't know exactly what I burn running in addition to what I'd burn anyway. I have an estimate, but I don't worry about it -- I focus on overall weekly exercise (and the types of exercise, as I burn more calories running in an hour than various other things I do), how I feel (avoid overtraining), and results.Anecdotally, and with respect to the commonly accepted definitions of cardiovascular and intensity training, a 400 pound obese male running a mile is engaging in high intensity training, and a 120 pound marathon runner running a mile is engaged in light cardiovascular work.
Unless the marathon runner is doing speed training, sure, I agree.The calorie expenditures as logic would dictate should be immensely different. Moving 400 pounds 1600 meters vs moving 120 pounds 1600 meters is truly the difference between a light jog and a full weight training session.
Yes--this is what I said above, the difference is the weight. What I think it generally wrong is the idea that all else equal you burn way more doing the same activity when unfit than you would as a fit person (same size and weight). With something like running, at least, I don't believe that is true or at least not significantly so -- the HRM tends to overstate calories for a very unfit person, in other words. But yeah, maybe recouperation counters that some (although greater decrease in non exercise activity while recouperating might counter that even more). Point is, probably not worth worrying about -- if I estimate (based on weight) that a 5 mile run burns about 400 calories I'm close enough even if it's a bit high unless I am trying to lose with a really narrow deficit and even then I should adjust over time and it will be fine.
So many people (there's a precision nutrition graphic about it and I've seen it lots of other places) seem to want to use "the calculators are imperfect for individuals and are only an estimate" and "you are going to be imperfect in calculating calories from food and workouts" to CICO doesn't really work or "it works but is too hard for the average person." I'd prefer to point out that you don't have to overthink it -- it really is pretty simple.
(The hard part for most is figuring out HOW to make new habits and not fall back into bad habits over time, to keep CI and CO where they should be. The psychology, not the math.)
My opinion, anyway.
I think we are tugging at the same string. Being exact in our efforts in calculating CICO is definitely an endeavor with marginal (if best) returns. I agree that the closest estimations we can muster are in most cases effective. If I've lead anyone to believe that I am talking down to them in terms of their weight loss or health goals, that's my bad. I never have that intention in mind. I am cut from the cloth of those who has spent a large part of their lives overweight, over-eating, and generally unhappy with my appearance and performance, and sometimes it might be hard for me the relate to the mindset of someone just starting. It's a trap I fall in to time to time, so please excuse my brashness.
That being said, and to get back on topic, I have to revise my statement that CICO is not without our control. It is, of course, like all things per-ordained by the laws of science. My point was that the variables dictating control of CICO in the weight loss community is so encumbered with personal physiology and psychology and world-view, even. For some there is comfort in knowing that the law of biology will dictate your successes and failures and for others, it's a looming truth that forces us to confront our own inadequacies.
We might not ever agree on rate of perceived exertion vs true caloric expenditure, perhaps because our own experiences shape our opinions on the matter, and that's fine. I don't think it distracts from the take-away message we are both trying to champion : "The hard part for most is figuring out HOW to make new habits and not fall back into bad habits over time, to keep CI and CO where they should be. The psychology, not the math"
Cheers!
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snickerscharlie wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »leanjogreen18 wrote: »3 years ago, I wrote on this forum an article that sparked a healthy yet rigorous debate about CICO, and why (for most) 1200 calories is not the answer to long term sustained fitness and weight loss. It was titled "1200 calories and why it won't work". I wrote the article as a one-off, as I hardly ever participate in online forums, but the response to the tune of 2000+ replies within the first week, got me thinking. I tried to help as many as I could.
The fitness and health industry has evolved over the last 3 years, and for the most part people have come to terms with the inevitability of energy balance in their attempts to lose weight, gain strength, maintain health. Contemplating the market research, this reckoning has come simultaneously with the awakening of a monstrous millennial fitness industry, the proliferation of knowledge through social media (Youtube trainers...etc) and a keen awareness that for a "healthy" individual, CICO is the 800 pound gorilla of weight management (though not a marker of overall health, per se -mental? emotional? spiritual?). It would surprise me if we could have such a heated debate about energy balance 10 years in the future, but I've been surprised before.
The main reason many have not adhered to CICO as a viable approach to dieting is because it carries with it so much technical baggage - in the form of counting and weighing and approximating. The main reason so many have adhered to it is the fact that it offers a structured absolute - one that reigns over every eating decision in our lives and yet does so ever so un-invasively.
The OP is not wrong in her critique of CICO.. It does not offer an all encompassing solution to our individual definitions of health, and CICO is not always within our individual control if we are not given the right parameters. The marathon runner that runs 1 mile barely expends any calories. The same distance for an overweight office worker might be something completely different. Calories in vs calories out is only useful if you understand its application in relation to our own physiologies and biologies. As with all things, a better understanding of the concepts will yield better results from their application. A half-assed acknowledgement of the principles will only yield confusion. CICO is "simple" but only if you understand the factors that influence its variables on a personal level.
I hear you but my experience...I only "half-*kitten*" understand the stuff behind CICO (you know the sciencey thermo stuff). But I understand the very simple math of CI vs CO. That little piece of missing information I didn't have in the past is all I needed to put me on the right path.
When I didn't have the basic understanding of CICO/TDEE, I just knew to eat less move more but combined with the other issues (below) I couldn't isolate what was preventing me from maintaining my loss from fad/crash diets.
Emotional/boredom/guilt eating was so much easier for me to figure out once I had the basic math of CICO.
I can now isolate what prevented me from maintaining my weight loss, it was ME. This very small simple basic math equation has empowered me to have control of what goes into my mouth because I now know I have a fixed amount of calories I can eat before I begin to gain weight. Regardless of how I FEEL I can lose/maintain weight IF I make sure as accurately as I can to have less CI than CO.
All the other stuff emotional/boredom/stress eating was now a separate issue, so to speak for me. That was something I needed to address and was much easier to address once I understood the basics of CICO.
Hopefully this makes sense. I'm not as eloquent as some are:(
Haha, I don't think anyone knows the sciency-thermo stuff, no matter how much they claim to. You give me too much credit in that aspect. Many people on these forums think they know a thing or two about a thing or two, but in fact they lack the ability to apply them with any meaningful effect. I hope I'm not one of those people and I hope you don't think my response in any way discredits your own personal journey.
But you're completely right in one regard: YOU are and have always been the barrier and or the motivator of your destiny. If more come to that realization, I believe we'll be headed to a healthier community and country.
I think quite a few on these boards know a lot about the science-thermo stuff and have patiently explained it to me and others several times:)
I see...that's valuable advice, if taken correctly and with a heavy grain of salt. But aren't we trying to help a community of people prosper and simplify (not mystify) their weight loss and health goals? I've been active in the field of performance and nutrition for 13 years, and I've realized that in those instances where we cram science down the throats of someone looking for practical solutions, it never leads to any appreciable result. Yes, we can talk about the thermo-mechanics of substrate metabolism, but why? How will that help? Does ketosis or gluceogenesis or oxidative phosphorylation mean anything to you? I'm happy to talk to you about sciencey things if you'd like, but I'd rather not, unless it'll get you closer to your goals.
I think you misunderstand or I'm not communicating properly...
All I really needed to know is the basics of CICO and TDEE. Nothing mystifying about it. In fact its super simple!
I only mentioned people on these forums know it and have patiently explained in response to you saying folks on here think they know. Some actually do understand. Many very well educated in various fields are in this forum.
My belief is the only people who complicate things are those who try to say CICO isn't simple. The basic math is simple. Figuring out your personal stuff may not be for some folks.
I agree, once again! Some people can lose weight on "eat less, run more", others need a little more explanation, and even others need the full rundown of human metabolism. My peers, I'm sure are working on this forum to benefit others as I am, so please don't discredit their attempts. My view has always been that weight loss should be as stress-free as possible.
What? I have no idea what you are referencing when you say "please don't discredit their attempts".
I absolutely credit the long time posters here and I'm even working with one trainer on these boards. Many of my posts credit these folks for helping me. It was me who pointed out that folks on these boards are very knowledgable and know their stuff.
You and I are misunderstanding each other:)
Apparently so. I meant no disrespect! But please do not pick out a line of text and make it bold faced to suggest that I am at odds with my industry...it's destructive to my original message: that I have overwhelming respect for the people working in my field, and I am a long term poster here, since 2012. But at the same time there is a lot of snake oil, you must admit. I understand you have issues with my original post...considering it's "eloquence", but I assure you that's unwarranted. I hope your coach is helping you move past those issues and more.
I'm not even sure what you are talking about now, honestly. I think you are reading more into what I'm saying.
I do not think nor implied you were at odds with your industry. Not sure where you even got that from because I never even implied it.
I definitely give credit to the professionals and long time posters here for clarifying things for me. They know it as I've mentioned it in several of my posts.
I never implied you lack respect for anyone.
The only issue I had with your original post is that CICO was simple for me and life changing.
The lack of eloquence was about MY post and how I do not fully understand the science behind CICO and how I might possibly not be explaining my self thus I said "does this make sense". It was nothing about your post.
I bolded a part where you said "please don't discredit their attempts" which to me implied I was discrediting folks on this forum with a ton of knowledge which again for emphasis they have helped me tremendously.
My coach is helping me with strength training as I don't really have any other issues now that I've learned about CICO & TDEE.
We are friends now so in order to not hijack this thread we can continue on our newsfeed if this didn't clear up things.
Best!
jo
No worries. I tend to get confrontational, so please excuse my rudeness. I knew with my post that I'd have to defend my position, and if nothing else, I am defensive. I'm really glad you've found someone to help you in the community, and wish you the best of luck...if you're ever in the need of advice however marginal, please reach out!
May I ask what your training/profession/qualifications in this area are, and what is your industry as mentioned upthread? Your invitation to reach out to you for advice is what's prompting me to ask. I'm honestly not being rude or confrontational, just curious.
Sure! I am an NASM CPT with "advanced" certification. I'll be honest, I've not renewed it since 2012, since I don't work in the field any longer. I had time on my hands and decided to get certified on a whim. I held a part time position at LA fitness during post grad at LA fitness in Arcadia, CA. I doubled majored in business administration and biology at the University of Illinois, which gave me a foundational basis in what I was really interested in: substrate metabolism, again to further my own fitness goals. My profession now I'm afraid is purely financial in nature, which is not to say I've strayed away from my interests in health and fitness, rather, I've learned enough to understand how my body works and what works for my body. I'm hoping that some of that education can be used to help others as it has before.2 -
This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats
I'm going to say that while this is true for most this is not true for me and many people like me. It is easier for me to abstain than attempt "moderation" with anything that has ever been a bad habit for me. It may be how I am wired (there are tons of addicts in my family). Usually when I recognize a "bad habit" or something that isn't good for me or something that I can't enjoy in moderation I eliminate it. (ie Cake)
I have said this before and I will say it again but weight loss is a function of the following:
Managing:
- CICO
- Macros
- Variety of sources for micros
- External barriers to success
- Expectations
- Motivation
Recognizing:
- Personality
- Personal constraints
- Priorities
Improving:
- Choices
- Physical fitness
- Knowledge
- Creativity
- Determination
When you take the whole world view and recognize that the whole thing is a process and integrated sometimes pushing the others, sometimes is the result of others.
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I'm going to make a thread called
CICO is the whole equation
YOU MAD? OMG YOU SO MAD.20 -
tmoneyag99 wrote: »I have said this before and I will say it again but weight loss is a function of the following:
Managing:
- CICO
- Macros
- Variety of sources for micros
- External barriers to success
- Expectations
- Motivation
Recognizing:
- Personality
- Personal constraints
- Priorities
Improving:
- Choices
- Physical fitness
- Knowledge
- Creativity
- Determination
I think the issue is:
Managing:
- Macros
- Variety of sources for micros
- External barriers to success
- Expectations
- Motivation
Recognizing:
- Personality
- Personal constraints
- Priorities
Improving:
- Choices
- Physical fitness
- Knowledge
- Creativity
- Determination
are all tools (some more important than others) to help you achieve CI<CO.....which is to say....weight loss.
No one is saying that there are things (hormones, life, cravings) which make adherence to your calorie target difficult....But misunderstanding what the ultimate goal is, is what the diet industry is great at.
Making too much of macros, or exercise, or anything else (yes, they play a part), and obscuring the fact that the only way to lost weight to is eat less than you burn, is why so many people think losing weight is an impossible task.
I think when a newbie comes on here and asks, "how do I lose weight?", the best answer is just to tell them to log everything they eat, and start by figuring out what their maintenance calorie requirement is.
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And meatballs. Milk and meatballs.3 -
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GaleHawkins wrote: »
TEF shouldn't be included in "calorie burns" though. That's majoring in the minors. How many people eat 250 grams of protein a day anyway unless they are doing keto? And when burning calories for physical activity, does the body resort amino acids or energy from carbs (glycogen) first?Russellb97 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »I will backtrack a bit by saying that not every calorie is equal.
There's the thermic effect of food (250 grams of protein burns about 250 more calories than 250 grams of sugar)
They also vary in nutrition, fullness, and effect on hormones.
But weight-loss can be had with any type of food/calorie
A calorie is a unit of measurement - the "amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere". You're mixing up a unit of measurement with food.
No I'm not.
250 grams of protein is approx. 1000 calories protein. It has a TEF of 30-35%, which means for those 1,000 calories "IN" your body will expend about 300-350 calories to metabolize them.
For the same amount of carbs, it would expend about 60
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Most people eating much over 100 grams of protein daily will be knocked out of ketosis. Keto is NOT a high protein WOE because about half of protein can become glucose like sugar becomes.
It would take a lot more than 100g to knock someone out of Ketosis. And if people restricted themselves to that level of protein, most of people following the diet would be losing a lot of muscle (at least the males) because that won't even remotely address the requirements for many.2 -
Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Hop on to nearly any hypothyroid discussion. There are a committed community that believe this despite all evidence to the contrary.
In untreared hypothyroidism the weight gain is complex and multifaceted but not related to a simple caloroie deficit derived from food, rather a lowered basal metabolic rate neutralising or negating reductions of caloric input as the CO is reduced.
Sure a 'deficit' would relate to weigh loss but achieving that deficit is harder to do. People find they eat and move the same but can't create a loss due to the basal metabolic rate being ngatively affected by the impaired thyroid function.
Metabolic rate is affected by many things such as age, gender, size, temperature, medications, hormones etc ... thyroid hormones are intricately tied to metabolism.
.................
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GaleHawkins wrote: »
TEF shouldn't be included in "calorie burns" though. That's majoring in the minors. How many people eat 250 grams of protein a day anyway unless they are doing keto? And when burning calories for physical activity, does the body resort amino acids or energy from carbs (glycogen) first?Russellb97 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »I will backtrack a bit by saying that not every calorie is equal.
There's the thermic effect of food (250 grams of protein burns about 250 more calories than 250 grams of sugar)
They also vary in nutrition, fullness, and effect on hormones.
But weight-loss can be had with any type of food/calorie
A calorie is a unit of measurement - the "amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere". You're mixing up a unit of measurement with food.
No I'm not.
250 grams of protein is approx. 1000 calories protein. It has a TEF of 30-35%, which means for those 1,000 calories "IN" your body will expend about 300-350 calories to metabolize them.
For the same amount of carbs, it would expend about 60
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Most people eating much over 100 grams of protein daily will be knocked out of ketosis. Keto is NOT a high protein WOE because about half of protein can become glucose like sugar becomes.
It would take a lot more than 100g to knock someone out of Ketosis. And if people restricted themselves to that level of protein, most of people following the diet would be losing a lot of muscle (at least the males) because that won't even remotely address the requirements for many.
This. The whole "too much protonz bad for keto" stuff only applies to the most sedentary of people. When I cut, I am eating upward of 300+g per day and maintain ketosis the entire time, due to consuming only trace carbs and fats, EFAs, and lifting 3x per week while walking a few miles per day.
Even during my CKD runs, I stayed around 50%p, and had absolutely no problem maintaining ketosis, and was back in within 24 hours of my refeeds. Seriously, this *kitten* needs to die in a fire.1 -
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
TEF shouldn't be included in "calorie burns" though. That's majoring in the minors. How many people eat 250 grams of protein a day anyway unless they are doing keto? And when burning calories for physical activity, does the body resort amino acids or energy from carbs (glycogen) first?Russellb97 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »I will backtrack a bit by saying that not every calorie is equal.
There's the thermic effect of food (250 grams of protein burns about 250 more calories than 250 grams of sugar)
They also vary in nutrition, fullness, and effect on hormones.
But weight-loss can be had with any type of food/calorie
A calorie is a unit of measurement - the "amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere". You're mixing up a unit of measurement with food.
No I'm not.
250 grams of protein is approx. 1000 calories protein. It has a TEF of 30-35%, which means for those 1,000 calories "IN" your body will expend about 300-350 calories to metabolize them.
For the same amount of carbs, it would expend about 60
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Most people eating much over 100 grams of protein daily will be knocked out of ketosis. Keto is NOT a high protein WOE because about half of protein can become glucose like sugar becomes.
It would take a lot more than 100g to knock someone out of Ketosis. And if people restricted themselves to that level of protein, most of people following the diet would be losing a lot of muscle (at least the males) because that won't even remotely address the requirements for many.
This. The whole "too much protonz bad for keto" stuff only applies to the most sedentary of people. When I cut, I am eating upward of 300+g per day and maintain ketosis the entire time, due to consuming only trace carbs and fats, EFAs, and lifting 3x per week while walking a few miles per day.
Even during my CKD runs, I stayed around 50%p, and had absolutely no problem maintaining ketosis, and was back in within 24 hours of my refeeds. Seriously, this *kitten* needs to die in a fire.
And even as a female, I've done the CKD thing (and am sort of doing it now) with close to and over 100g of protein daily. No impact on ketosis.1 -
Out of interest how are you guys sure you're still in ketosis?
Are you using (less reliable) urine testing strips?
Or testing blood ketones with a monitor and finger pricks?
Or going by how you feel, or breath acetone analysis? Just curious.0 -
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Out of interest how are you guys sure you're still in ketosis?
Are you using (less reliable) urine testing strips?
Or testing blood ketones with a monitor and finger pricks?
Or going by how you feel, or breath acetone analysis? Just curious.
Stand next to someone in keto in the gym. I assure you, there is no mistaking that smell. My tefeeds were on Friday evening; about 30 minutes into supersetting deadlifts and pullups on Saturday, I smelled like a barrel of nail polish remover. It then stays that way anytime I exert, until the following Friday.
When I am cutting, it's constant after about day 3, as there are no carb refeeds.2 -
Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Hop on to nearly any hypothyroid discussion. There are a committed community that believe this despite all evidence to the contrary.
In untreated hypothyroidism the weight gain is complex and multifaceted but not related to a simple calorie deficit derived from food, rather a lowered basal metabolic rate neutralizing or negating reductions of caloric input as the CO is reduced.
Sure a 'deficit' would relate to weigh loss but achieving that deficit is harder to do. People find they eat and move the same but can't create a loss due to the basal metabolic rate being negatively affected by the impaired thyroid function.
Metabolic rate is affected by many things such as age, gender, size, temperature, medications, hormones etc ... thyroid hormones are intricately tied to metabolism.
.................
The root cause of the complexity lies with obesity. Hormones are free cycling, so simply being overweight inhibits hormonal balance as the increase in tissue lessens the chance of the hormones finding receptor sites. The best course of action is to lose weight in a safe responsible manner through a caloric deficit and moderate exercise.
REE is reduced by ~5% based on diagnostic evidence and this is on patients moving from a full thyroid panel in the normal range to complete withdrawal from hormone supplementation. So a person with a calculated maintenance of 2000 kcals/day would then need to reduce this to 1900 kcals/day. 100 kcals/day difference.
What many actually experience is a shift in satiety factors and hunger signals, which causes hypothyroid patients to eat more.4 -
Out of interest how are you guys sure you're still in ketosis?
Are you using (less reliable) urine testing strips?
Or testing blood ketones with a monitor and finger pricks?
Or going by how you feel, or breath acetone analysis? Just curious.
For the first few days I get headaches if I'm not careful about salt intake, and I get low level headaches throughout if I'm again not careful. When eating "normally" for me, headaches are never an issue. I also pee more with the same fluid intake (especially so the first 24 hours) and my breath is.....different, hard to explain! I'm actually not overly fussed about being in ketosis so that's why I don't test in any way. It's just a byproduct of the cutting method being used.0 -
I know they're not real strudels but I might have to try these on my next trip Stateside! In what section of the supermarket are these to be found?
1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »
I know they're not real strudels but I might have to try these on my next trip Stateside! In what section of the supermarket are these to be found?
Freezer section.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »
I know they're not real strudels but I might have to try these on my next trip Stateside! In what section of the supermarket are these to be found?
Freezer and where ever all the processed foods are found, which allegedly is always in the middle of the store.11 -
WinoGelato wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »
I know they're not real strudels but I might have to try these on my next trip Stateside! In what section of the supermarket are these to be found?
Freezer and where ever all the processed foods are found, which allegedly is always in the middle of the store.
Except when it's on the outside edge, like at my store.
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