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CICO is not the whole equation
Replies
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I don't think people are angry either. This thread has actually been quite civil and thought provoking, IMO.Why do people get so angry over what works for others? We each have to find what works for us. I know what works for me and would never expect my husband to do the same thing. He is unique as we all are.
The only people who come across as angry seem to be those who are delving into the woo. CICO is such a general principle it is difficult to refute, although many try.
I would agree on the quality of MFP. For a debate section on the internet the vast majority are civil and very respectful.5 -
I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.4
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born_of_fire74 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »CICO based on TDEE does succeed. Proven over and over. No one denies the equation can be tweaked based on many things, but very few fail to see results doing CICO, and doing it correctly. Look in the success forum. Almost ever person posting there for the last years have a basis of CICO, then many tweak or make enhancements that fit them. Read the scientific papers on CICO. While some other adjusted CICO diets have been seen to provided additional benefits or loss, the basic CICO control groups ALWAYS loses weight, with no fan fare.
Except CICO <> Calorie counting, which is really what you are talking about. CICO is the underlying reason people lose weight regardless of their method. Calorie counting is the method MFP is based on.
Erm, how do you determine your calories in (CI) and calories out (CO) without counting calories?
You don't have to determine it to make CICO work for you (although I think counting makes it a lot easier). You could use a method that might help you reach a deficit without counting -- like reducing carbohydrates or IF or a thousand other different plans.
When they work, they work because they help someone consume less than they're burning.
Counting calories is one way -- I think a really reliable way -- to achieve a deficit. But it isn't the only way.
pretty much this. I calorie counted for a long time and it taught to know, roughly, how many calories to consume. I have not logged or weighed in the past six months and I have not gained a pound. I will say that when one is at goal weight that it becomes harder to lose more and get leaner without calorie counting.
Estimating the factors and result of a math problem is still solving that math problem, just not very accurately.
I am very curious to look into methods that people achieve CI<CO without counting calories in some form or another, with varying degrees of accuracy, when I get home from work today. I just don't see how it is possible. Perhaps I lack imagination
well, a simple way to do it would be if you are eating x amount per day to cut back on that amount by 15% and you should see a drop in weight. so if I was eating four eggs and back for brekfast, a sandwhich and potato chips for lunch, and fried chicken and mashed potatoes for dinner and I then cut that back to two eggs and back for breakfast, a sandwhich and cottage cheese for lunch, and baked chicken with vegetables for dinner then I should see a corresponding drop in weight due to the fact that I have replaced calorie dense food with less calorie dense food..
It is really not that complicated.3 -
My body used to automatically keep me within a couple pounds weight range when I was thinner, which kept me trim. Now my body keeps me within a couple pounds (plateau) at a higher settling point which works against me. This has been my experience. I realize many claim to have no such settling point, which I do not plan to argue with.
The good news is I can lower my set point by a determined cutting of calories, by upping protein and regular strength training. If I can get the weight down and keep it down for some time I should be able to get and stay at my lower preferred weight. I'm working towards that goal right now. Wish me well on this journey!2 -
KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
I find straight calorie-counting vastly preferable to programs that build in calorie restriction through food-type or portion-specific restriction. It's more flexible, you can set up optimal macros for your lifestyle and training, and you can have a piece of cake without worrying if you're completely derailing your diet. I understand more structure appeals to some, but it's not for me.3 -
I only want to restrict food from my diet that I don't like, so calorie counting works well for me. And if the wife tries to get me to eat cauliflower, I just say I can't fit it in today as I'm eating a little bag of chips. 13
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VintageFeline wrote: »Out of interest how are you guys sure you're still in ketosis?
Are you using (less reliable) urine testing strips?
Or testing blood ketones with a monitor and finger pricks?
Or going by how you feel, or breath acetone analysis? Just curious.
For the first few days I get headaches if I'm not careful about salt intake, and I get low level headaches throughout if I'm again not careful. When eating "normally" for me, headaches are never an issue. I also pee more with the same fluid intake (especially so the first 24 hours) and my breath is.....different, hard to explain! I'm actually not overly fussed about being in ketosis so that's why I don't test in any way. It's just a byproduct of the cutting method being used.
Okay, I understand following body cues (mine were distinct when I was doing keto) but it's a stretch to say 'no effect on ketosis' when you basing the assessment on how you feel, not actual data.Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Hop on to nearly any hypothyroid discussion. There are a committed community that believe this despite all evidence to the contrary.
In untreated hypothyroidism the weight gain is complex and multifaceted but not related to a simple calorie deficit derived from food, rather a lowered basal metabolic rate neutralizing or negating reductions of caloric input as the CO is reduced.
Sure a 'deficit' would relate to weigh loss but achieving that deficit is harder to do. People find they eat and move the same but can't create a loss due to the basal metabolic rate being negatively affected by the impaired thyroid function.
Metabolic rate is affected by many things such as age, gender, size, temperature, medications, hormones etc ... thyroid hormones are intricately tied to metabolism.
.................
The root cause of the complexity lies with obesity. Hormones are free cycling, so simply being overweight inhibits hormonal balance as the increase in tissue lessens the chance of the hormones finding receptor sites. The best course of action is to lose weight in a safe responsible manner through a caloric deficit and moderate exercise.
REE is reduced by ~5% based on diagnostic evidence and this is on patients moving from a full thyroid panel in the normal range to complete withdrawal from hormone supplementation. So a person with a calculated maintenance of 2000 kcals/day would then need to reduce this to 1900 kcals/day. 100 kcals/day difference.
What many actually experience is a shift in satiety factors and hunger signals, which causes hypothyroid patients to eat more.
Changes in hormone response secondary to obesity is a complicating factor for some.
However, there are many who gain weight gain/difficulty losing from hypothyroidism who are not obese but just a little overweight so that bunch of complications has no impact. Many are talking about 5kg, not 35kg etc
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The effect (in calories) regarding the deficit change needed to counter the change in metabolic rate second to hypothyroidism would surely depend on an individual's degree of hormonal dysfunction and the big picture off their overall metabolic rate.
This makes calculation on CI:CO some difficult as the CO part of the equation is impacted by the (height weight age gender) data put into the mfp computer as well as 'estimated' activity level, variables such as temperate, medication, genetics and hormonal implications.
You can measure CI, but CO is always going to be an estimate and untreated hypothyroidism and subsequent effect on metabolic rate, to relative degrees will be a variable in that estimate.
The general statement "hypothyroidism is linked to weight gain" creates a lot of trouble as it is too general. A decrease in hormone activity will cause weight gain - water weight via increased cellular absorption. What I see on MFP frequently are statements such as "I never changed my eating habits and suddenly put on 85 lbs in three months".
The other problem are old school methods still lingering in endocrinology texts such as the "hypothyroidism may cause 5-40% decrease in metabolism". The origin of this is based on patient weight gain, with no monitoring of CI or CO, just how much weight an individual gained. Clinical research has proven that REE only varies by ~5% +/- 3 sigma values. I did this in 2015 and went from 175/200 mcg Synthroid to nothing for 30 days and only saw a 5% decrease in REE.
30 days withdrawal of treatment in yourself hardly reflects mid - long term metabolic effects.
Approx 5% +\- 3 could mean any where from 2 - 8% in your quoted study example. For the subject in the trial you talk about that had an 8% decrease in REE that's a pretty significant change.
Do you have a link to this study?
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My body used to automatically keep me within a couple pounds weight range when I was thinner, which kept me trim. Now my body keeps me within a couple pounds (plateau) at a higher settling point which works against me. This has been my experience. I realize many claim to have no such settling point, which I do not plan to argue with.
The good news is I can lower my set point by a determined cutting of calories, by upping protein and regular strength training. If I can get the weight down and keep it down for some time I should be able to get and stay at my lower preferred weight. I'm working towards that goal right now. Wish me well on this journey!
In other words, your current eating habits and activity level leave you at a certain weight range that you don't like so you increase your energy expenditure through exercise and consciously decrease your calorie intake until new habits form. Why are you selling yourself short and saying it's your body who wants this or that?9 -
Sorry if my first post on here is controversial, but I tend to meet a lot of "thin" people who go by basic CICO. I also meet a lot of "fat" people who ignore CICO and go with fad diets such as Slimming World, that promote eating as many "free" foods as you want etc.
If you want to be thinner then work out a reasonable calorie deficit (200-300 per day would be my suggestion) and stick to it over a long period. Use MFP and log everything. Become obsessed. Weigh everything you eat!
When you get to your goal, gradually reduce the deficit. However try and eat as much healthy foods as possible as these keep you full for longer and make it far easier to hit the daily deficit. It's that simple, no?5 -
KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.4 -
KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.4 -
KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
I agree with this, so much.
Though this seems to be the MO with most for-profit weight loss plans. I really can't stand beachbody, but it really isn't unique to them.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Yup. I have so many friends who, since I started losing, have lost big amounts and regained and lost. I've continued a downward trend, sometimes slowly, sometimes a little less slowly. The difference? I'm not in a "diet club" where activity is barely accounted for but encouraged and intakes are pretty low masked by allowing quite high volume of low calorie veg. There is also something of a punishment culture with calorie dense foods making them really hard to fit into your day.
And well, if these clubs were really the holy grail to lasting weight loss, their customer base would surely diminish? Not a smart business plan is it?5 -
VintageFeline wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Yup. I have so many friends who, since I started losing, have lost big amounts and regained and lost. I've continued a downward trend, sometimes slowly, sometimes a little less slowly. The difference? I'm not in a "diet club" where activity is barely accounted for but encouraged and intakes are pretty low masked by allowing quite high volume of low calorie veg. There is also something of a punishment culture with calorie dense foods making them really hard to fit into your day.
And well, if these clubs were really the holy grail to lasting weight loss, their customer base would surely diminish? Not a smart business plan is it?
I think part of their strategy is to help people see those big losses, which makes people happy. Unfortunately, people make these huge strides and then completely fall off. It happens with all diets. And then there are a few handfuls of people who succeed.
I do give BB credit for one thing. It helped me get into fitness. CLX helped me go from 220 to 190s, and then other programs helped me get into the 180s and bodybeast got me into lifting. Now I moved onto Bigger Leaner Stronger and I have seen the largest gains in strength to date.2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Yup. I have so many friends who, since I started losing, have lost big amounts and regained and lost. I've continued a downward trend, sometimes slowly, sometimes a little less slowly. The difference? I'm not in a "diet club" where activity is barely accounted for but encouraged and intakes are pretty low masked by allowing quite high volume of low calorie veg. There is also something of a punishment culture with calorie dense foods making them really hard to fit into your day.
And well, if these clubs were really the holy grail to lasting weight loss, their customer base would surely diminish? Not a smart business plan is it?
I think part of their strategy is to help people see those big losses, which makes people happy. Unfortunately, people make these huge strides and then completely fall off. It happens with all diets. And then there are a few handfuls of people who succeed.
I do give BB credit for one thing. It helped me get into fitness. CLX helped me go from 220 to 190s, and then other programs helped me get into the 180s and bodybeast got me into lifting. Now I moved onto Bigger Leaner Stronger and I have seen the largest gains in strength to date.
Totally with you on this point. A person's willingness to truly commit to an exercise and diet program no matter how much snake oil is involved is the first step. Even the most ridiculous fad diets have a handful of people see long-term sustained weight loss. For the most part I'd say diet programs that are correlated with exercise programs generally have good intentions in mind, and perhaps half of them have sound principles and pacing.
Not everything is a corporate ploy to illicit returning (read failed) customers. Success stories and testimonials can be monetized way more than the sporadic revenue of returning discouraged dieters, especially these days when competition in the fitness and diet industries have begun to weed out the truly ineffective methods. The efficacy of diet programs is literally a few twitters posts away from crashing and burning. The business model now must be a diet or exercise program that is sustainable, rational, and has moderately high levels of compliance to win over culture leaders and endorsements for dieting establishments ---extremely hard to do when most culture leaders are setting higher bars for endorsement. Welcome to 2017! (Thank you, internet?)
I'm way off topic I realize. The take-away message is that the industry has outgrown the average dieter and is pressing on. Those in the know already "know" and some of them are cocky and dismissive to those left behind. Those that are stuck trying to figure out if CI<CO is the whole equation are the target market for a whole hotbed of snake oil merchants.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Yup. I have so many friends who, since I started losing, have lost big amounts and regained and lost. I've continued a downward trend, sometimes slowly, sometimes a little less slowly. The difference? I'm not in a "diet club" where activity is barely accounted for but encouraged and intakes are pretty low masked by allowing quite high volume of low calorie veg. There is also something of a punishment culture with calorie dense foods making them really hard to fit into your day.
And well, if these clubs were really the holy grail to lasting weight loss, their customer base would surely diminish? Not a smart business plan is it?
I think part of their strategy is to help people see those big losses, which makes people happy. Unfortunately, people make these huge strides and then completely fall off. It happens with all diets. And then there are a few handfuls of people who succeed.
I do give BB credit for one thing. It helped me get into fitness. CLX helped me go from 220 to 190s, and then other programs helped me get into the 180s and bodybeast got me into lifting. Now I moved onto Bigger Leaner Stronger and I have seen the largest gains in strength to date.
I'd go with that, I did a BB program when I decided to get fit again (coming off 10 years "rest" having been a dancer and before that a gymnast). But I bought direct and didn't use their diet plan or anything else. It's all the peripheral upselling that grinds my gears but is a massive driver of their business model.3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Yup. I have so many friends who, since I started losing, have lost big amounts and regained and lost. I've continued a downward trend, sometimes slowly, sometimes a little less slowly. The difference? I'm not in a "diet club" where activity is barely accounted for but encouraged and intakes are pretty low masked by allowing quite high volume of low calorie veg. There is also something of a punishment culture with calorie dense foods making them really hard to fit into your day.
And well, if these clubs were really the holy grail to lasting weight loss, their customer base would surely diminish? Not a smart business plan is it?
I think part of their strategy is to help people see those big losses, which makes people happy. Unfortunately, people make these huge strides and then completely fall off. It happens with all diets. And then there are a few handfuls of people who succeed.
I do give BB credit for one thing. It helped me get into fitness. CLX helped me go from 220 to 190s, and then other programs helped me get into the 180s and bodybeast got me into lifting. Now I moved onto Bigger Leaner Stronger and I have seen the largest gains in strength to date.
I'd go with that, I did a BB program when I decided to get fit again (coming off 10 years "rest" having been a dancer and before that a gymnast). But I bought direct and didn't use their diet plan or anything else. It's all the peripheral upselling that grinds my gears but is a massive driver of their business model.
Yea it's unfortunate they went down the road of "supplements" and upselling. I actually think for a person who just wants general fitness, it's a good start. And I have met some really ripped people and some very knowledgeable people who have followed their programs. I will say, their push up bars are really good. I have yet to find better.1 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »CICO based on TDEE does succeed. Proven over and over. No one denies the equation can be tweaked based on many things, but very few fail to see results doing CICO, and doing it correctly. Look in the success forum. Almost ever person posting there for the last years have a basis of CICO, then many tweak or make enhancements that fit them. Read the scientific papers on CICO. While some other adjusted CICO diets have been seen to provided additional benefits or loss, the basic CICO control groups ALWAYS loses weight, with no fan fare.
Except CICO <> Calorie counting, which is really what you are talking about. CICO is the underlying reason people lose weight regardless of their method. Calorie counting is the method MFP is based on.
Erm, how do you determine your calories in (CI) and calories out (CO) without counting calories?
You don't have to determine it to make CICO work for you (although I think counting makes it a lot easier). You could use a method that might help you reach a deficit without counting -- like reducing carbohydrates or IF or a thousand other different plans.
When they work, they work because they help someone consume less than they're burning.
Counting calories is one way -- I think a really reliable way -- to achieve a deficit. But it isn't the only way.
pretty much this. I calorie counted for a long time and it taught to know, roughly, how many calories to consume. I have not logged or weighed in the past six months and I have not gained a pound. I will say that when one is at goal weight that it becomes harder to lose more and get leaner without calorie counting.
Estimating the factors and result of a math problem is still solving that math problem, just not very accurately.
I am very curious to look into methods that people achieve CI<CO without counting calories in some form or another, with varying degrees of accuracy, when I get home from work today. I just don't see how it is possible. Perhaps I lack imagination
Look at it this way (and understand that I'd already been on several "diets" at the time you were born):
In my younger years, you could count calories if you got a little paper book that had a long list of foods and their calories in it, and you logged on a piece of paper and added up the calories. It was very laborious, so pretty much no one did it, at least not for very long. And lots of foods were missing from the books.
Those calorie books were fairly new at the time. There were just starting to be things like Weight Watchers commonly available. (WW came into being as a corporation in 1963.) But overweight people existed before those, and some of them lost weight.
How? Obviously, it's still gotta be CI < CO, under the covers.
People already understood - in the long-ago years of my childhood
- that eating "too much" was what caused weight gain, mostly, and that higher activity had some useful effect (though this part was kind of murky). If they wanted to lose weight, they just ate less. If they lost weight, cool. If they didn't lose weight, they either gave up, or they ate even less then lost weight.
Calorie counting being an option at all for large numbers of regular people has probably only been the case since 1960s-1970s (the paper method). And it's really only been practical for large numbers since there were some kind of individualized computing devices and widely-available comprehensive calorie databases. Optimistically, 1990s, maybe?
But even before those, people lost weight. They just ate less, until they lost weight. Trial and error.3 -
Hi Ann! My grandma never counted calories and yet stayed the same dress size her whole adult life. She pretty much weighed herself and "watched her weight". That's the term women used back then, and probably where "Weight Watchers" borrowed it's name.2
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Also interesting that obesity rates around the developed world are at an all time high despite generations and generations not counting calories, eating smaller portions, being less sedentary and not having access to the masses of soft drinks and heavily processed foods that currently are readily available and heavily consumed.1
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As a new member I have not got the sense of "eat what you want, still lose weight and be healthy!!". I do have a sense of not demonizing food groups and particular foods anymore. The fact that MFP's tool set tracks macro and micronutrients and alerts you when things like your sugar is sneaking up, renders your arguement moot.
CICO is the whole equation for weight loss. You can fill your body with empty calories and still lose weight (fact). No one here would recommend that as a balanced healthy way of eating!!
It is liberating to know that no food item is evil and you dont need to have a concept of "cheating". You can have that big mac if that floats your boat and work it into your overall diet.
I would rather take a nice brioche bun, some jalapeno coleslaw, good mince and a red onion and make my own burger when I am craving that. Mainly because MFP has made me fall in love with cooking again.
Whilst using MFP I have eaten home made green thai curry, air fried chips, home made whole meal pitta bread pizzas, the burger described above and still lost weight. I have also stopped drinking soda drinks (sugar or sugar free), stop consuming refined white pasta, bread, rice and am eating more oily fish, fiberous fruits and lots of veggies.
I am still a notorious salad dodger so it is nice that I dont have to berate myself for eating a sandwich here and there.10 -
stevencloser wrote: »In other words, your current eating habits and activity level leave you at a certain weight range that you don't like so you increase your energy expenditure through exercise and consciously decrease your calorie intake until new habits form. Why are you selling yourself short and saying it's your body who wants this or that?
Thanks Steven. My body does fight me to go right back to the settled weight, staying wIthin a few pounds range. It is going to be monumental to lose these very stubborn targeted 10 or 15 pounds. It really will be an "active fight" for me to keep my body from wanting to bounce right back to my current weight.
I like how this article explains it as "steady state weight".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3174765/1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »KatzeDerNacht22 wrote: »I had never considered other methods besides calorie counting! I don't feel I have attained or have this intuitive eating system in-built, I guess it's similar to those programs with containers and colors, what's the name... 21 day fix? Very interesting topic here!! I guess I'll keep counting though cos I am just getting used to hitting my macros and all that as well as them calories.
My wife did the 21 fix. Of course it worked well, because the principle of the containers is you are limiting caloric intake. What I disagreed with, and why I like anyone starting to use a food journal and track is, most people doing the 21 day fix have no clue just how big of a deficit they are creating. You wouldn't know without doing the math of CICO. There is no real efficacy or knowledge/learning created in there, which I think is key to sustainability. It is also why we debate things like we do, and that is a good thing.
The one thing that drives me nuts about beachbody is they have really been big in cutting calories down a lot. I even noticed that with their calorie calculator. When I first started, it had me label around 2100 calories, but now it had me around 1500-1700.
I have an (admittedly conspiratorial) theory about why this is.
Person purchases plan from Beachbody and follows it. They see dramatic weight loss, but are unable to sustain and fall off the plan relatively quickly. But they remember the dramatic results and think it means the plan is "the best" and repeat the cycle again and again, all the while fueling the purchasing of new workouts, supplements, and "coaching."
I have a lot of family members who insist, regardless of how sustainable a plan is, that the fastest weight loss is the best. If they can only stay on plan for a couple of weeks, they'll still think that plan is the best.
That is how I see it too. WW and all other programs do the same thing. When my wife joined WW, they had her on 1k a day. Ridiculous.
Plus they allow you to eat WW treats. When people fall off the wagon, they remember that WW allowed them to eat suagary treats but use the full calorie alternatives.2 -
*SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*1
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I agree with you see Ico is not the loan equation. But on the other hand it is the major factor you can eat whatever you want and lose the weight but from a nutritional point of view and what you're doing to your body that's another issue. I could eat Snickers and drink vodka and I still lose the weight but what it would do to me physically would be totally destructive. Like anything else it's a balance of a whole bunch of factors
Like you I enjoyed my Wendy's hamburgers pizza and beers on the beach if I had to give those up I would have never succeeded but it's done in moderation and went in a specific calorie goal
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3 points:
1. Some people state that CICO is a law of physics. Technically, the first law of thermodynamics is a law of physics, and a calorie is simply a unit of measurement of raising 1 g of water through 1 degree C IN A BOMB CALORIMETER. We as humans are each a complex biological system, not a bomb calorimeter. While being aware of a general sense of how much one eats is probably a good thing common sense wise, being dogmatic about a bomb calorimeter law for human fat loss is ignoring the complexity of a biological system. We should be looking for laws of BIOLOGY, not laws of physics to guide us.
2. Just a general pattern I have noticed.. again, not a hard and fast rule but a general pattern. Those who shout "it's all about CICO" really seem to like their junk food (although many do include whole foods), and really seem to want to keep junk food in the mix. To my eye, I do wonder if CICO is a fantastic marketing scheme for big food to give people "permission" to keep that junk food hanging around (one would naturally be all inclusive if instructed that quantity trumps quality).
3. I also notice that the "it's all about CICO" folk do tend to exhibit disproportionately negative emotional responses at the mention of "clean eating" or "whole food diets" or the word "paleo". Or at the very least, there will be a lot of sarcasm/hostility/derision in the tone of responses. I don't know why this is. If one is confident in their method, they usually react peacefully to alternative suggestions. I do understand that food is an emotional topic, but I don't see the converse scenario nearly as much (a "clean eater" getting hostile at the suggestion of CICO/everything in moderation). But that could just be my observation.
Now, there certainly are exceptions to my point number 2, as several forum members do say that they like to watch what they eat in addition to how much, but like I said I just noticed this general trend....
3 -
It's odd as I have never noticed number 2 a single time in these boards...7
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OMG, still going on...
At the end of the day, and I think this is probably true for the majority, if you want to lose fat, at some point you're going to have to eat a little less then you'd like and move a little more then you'd like...4
This discussion has been closed.
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