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CICO is not the whole equation
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Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
Certain medical conditions can affect the "CO" side of the equation. If somebody is gaining weight/fat at a lower than expected intake level, that means they're not actually in a caloric deficit. It doesn't mean that CICO is invalid, it means that the equation has been altered. If we're solving for 2 + x = 4 and coming up with 5 as the sum every time, then we're not solving for x correctly.5 -
Health is more than CICO, yes. It includes weight, rest, genetics, environment, mental state, risk behavior, health issues, and happiness. Compromise any of those and health isn't optimal. If we're just speaking of weight loss CICO is correct all of the time.RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
There are lots of people who can eat "clean and healthy" and still suffer from health issues. And there are those who eat in moderation, and don't (myself included). Weight is the number on risk marker for anyone's health and even if an obese or overweight person lowered their weight not eating "optimally", they've reduced their risk factor.Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
There's a difference in having to earn them and being able to allow them. I could eat a large pizza, but just have to realize that I consumed a ton of calories and be aware of how much I consumed. I may have to eat a smaller dinner because of it. But I didn't have to earn that pizza. I just wanted to eat it.This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
Weight fluctuates up and down. You could do the same exact thing the next day and gain weight.If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
Which now explains why you may not be able to splurge like many of the people here. By enlarge, you're debating about issues of health for a small percentage of the population versus the general population who don't have those health issues.I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
I obviously cannot train a person with a heart condition the same way as I can an athlete. The athlete can eat "processed" foods and still be very healthy and the other a "clean" diet and still have health issues. So it's NOT just about food.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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If the body is in a TRUE calorie deficit, then even with those conditions weight loss will happen. My wife has a thyroid condition. She lost 35lbs once she applied a calorie deficit. And there are lots of thin diabetics out there too.Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
How does that work?
My understanding of hypothyroid is that it decreases metabolism/CO, not that it allows you to put on body fat even when eating below the reduced CO. It's just hard to do so, especially since you often feel low energy, etc.
Diabetes would seem to do the opposite -- your body becomes so IR that you cannot remove glucose from the blood and convert it into fat (which isn't the main way we add body fat anyway). Presumably it also interferes with effectively using the glucose as energy or the response that tells us we are satiated, so people might eat more (I think this can go along with IR, although since weight gain often triggers IR hard to insist it was a cause rather than pre-existing), but that's again not what was asked. A common symptom of diabetes is actually weight loss, because of how it interferes with the process.
Im not sure of any of ur questions. Im not a Doctor. I just know that thyroid conditions and diabetes can make people gain and retain weight.
Not by putting on fat when you are eating less than you are burning, but (in the case of thyroid) by reducing what you burn, and in the case of IR (maybe) by making satiety harder to achieve. That's the distinction people are making, and it's an important one.I only know what l have been told by my doctor...thyroidism and diabetes can put weight on and make people retain weight.
Doesn't seem like a full explanation, not uncommon with doctors, especially if you don't have the problems.I think the OP had a point.
This is not remotely what OP said. She was talking about nutrition.Thankfully l dont have these diseases but she might. I think if the doctor told her that her condition could make her retain weight, he might be right, what do u think?
I think you are imagining/bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the OP, not sure why. But that medical conditions change calorie balance doesn't support what OP said at all. (What OP said in the opening post wasn't actually wrong -- nutrition does matter -- but claiming others ignore this or that it has anything to do with CICO is what was wrong.)3 -
Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
Certain medical conditions can affect the "CO" side of the equation. If somebody is gaining weight/fat at a lower than expected intake level, that means they're not actually in a caloric deficit. It doesn't mean that CICO is invalid, it means that the equation has been altered. If we're solving for 2 + x = 4 and coming up with 5 as the sum every time, then we're not solving for x correctly.
Never said CICO was invalid lolol. How did u surmise that one haha. Glad so many people know so much about weight loss. Makes me wonder how a lot of us are still overfat. I was defending the OPs stance on how medical conditions can make u gain and retain weight. Fortunately l dont have these problems. I do notice a lot of people on here do and are able to still loose weight though.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
How does that work?
My understanding of hypothyroid is that it decreases metabolism/CO, not that it allows you to put on body fat even when eating below the reduced CO. It's just hard to do so, especially since you often feel low energy, etc.
Diabetes would seem to do the opposite -- your body becomes so IR that you cannot remove glucose from the blood and convert it into fat (which isn't the main way we add body fat anyway). Presumably it also interferes with effectively using the glucose as energy or the response that tells us we are satiated, so people might eat more (I think this can go along with IR, although since weight gain often triggers IR hard to insist it was a cause rather than pre-existing), but that's again not what was asked. A common symptom of diabetes is actually weight loss, because of how it interferes with the process.
Im not sure of any of ur questions. Im not a Doctor. I just know that thyroid conditions and diabetes can make people gain and retain weight.
Not by putting on fat when you are eating less than you are burning, but (in the case of thyroid) by reducing what you burn, and in the case of IR (maybe) by making satiety harder to achieve. That's the distinction people are making, and it's an important one.I only know what l have been told by my doctor...thyroidism and diabetes can put weight on and make people retain weight.
Doesn't seem like a full explanation, not uncommon with doctors, especially if you don't have the problems.I think the OP had a point.
This is not remotely what OP said. She was talking about nutrition.Thankfully l dont have these diseases but she might. I think if the doctor told her that her condition could make her retain weight, he might be right, what do u think?
I think you are imagining/bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the OP, not sure why. But that medical conditions change calorie balance doesn't support what OP said at all. (What OP said in the opening post wasn't actually wrong -- nutrition does matter -- but claiming others ignore this or that it has anything to do with CICO is what was wrong.)
Perhaps l misread what she meant. It seemed she was saying she was on a lot of medicine for her condition and waa not able to loose with CICO alone. As in CICO is the not the whole equation? Was that not even the title of her post. Its a shame she doesnt come back and explain but perhaps she doesnt feel like putting up with some know it all, wanna be doctors trying to correct her thoughts. Although this is the debate section. Present company excluded, of course.0 -
If the body is in a TRUE calorie deficit, then even with those conditions weight loss will happen. My wife has a thyroid condition. She lost 35lbs once she applied a calorie deficit. And there are lots of thin diabetics out there too.Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Wonderful news, congratulations to ur wife1 -
queenliz99 wrote: »CICO, look it up!
Yes it works, apparently no matter what0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
How does that work?
My understanding of hypothyroid is that it decreases metabolism/CO, not that it allows you to put on body fat even when eating below the reduced CO. It's just hard to do so, especially since you often feel low energy, etc.
Diabetes would seem to do the opposite -- your body becomes so IR that you cannot remove glucose from the blood and convert it into fat (which isn't the main way we add body fat anyway). Presumably it also interferes with effectively using the glucose as energy or the response that tells us we are satiated, so people might eat more (I think this can go along with IR, although since weight gain often triggers IR hard to insist it was a cause rather than pre-existing), but that's again not what was asked. A common symptom of diabetes is actually weight loss, because of how it interferes with the process.
Im not sure of any of ur questions. Im not a Doctor. I just know that thyroid conditions and diabetes can make people gain and retain weight.
Not by putting on fat when you are eating less than you are burning, but (in the case of thyroid) by reducing what you burn, and in the case of IR (maybe) by making satiety harder to achieve. That's the distinction people are making, and it's an important one.I only know what l have been told by my doctor...thyroidism and diabetes can put weight on and make people retain weight.
Doesn't seem like a full explanation, not uncommon with doctors, especially if you don't have the problems.I think the OP had a point.
This is not remotely what OP said. She was talking about nutrition.Thankfully l dont have these diseases but she might. I think if the doctor told her that her condition could make her retain weight, he might be right, what do u think?
I think you are imagining/bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the OP, not sure why. But that medical conditions change calorie balance doesn't support what OP said at all. (What OP said in the opening post wasn't actually wrong -- nutrition does matter -- but claiming others ignore this or that it has anything to do with CICO is what was wrong.)
Reread OPs statement. Definitely misread her point. In fact now lm not sure what her point really was. CICO works and she did not deny that. What was her point then if not about conditions n medicine?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
How does that work?
My understanding of hypothyroid is that it decreases metabolism/CO, not that it allows you to put on body fat even when eating below the reduced CO. It's just hard to do so, especially since you often feel low energy, etc.
Diabetes would seem to do the opposite -- your body becomes so IR that you cannot remove glucose from the blood and convert it into fat (which isn't the main way we add body fat anyway). Presumably it also interferes with effectively using the glucose as energy or the response that tells us we are satiated, so people might eat more (I think this can go along with IR, although since weight gain often triggers IR hard to insist it was a cause rather than pre-existing), but that's again not what was asked. A common symptom of diabetes is actually weight loss, because of how it interferes with the process.
Im not sure of any of ur questions. Im not a Doctor. I just know that thyroid conditions and diabetes can make people gain and retain weight.
Not by putting on fat when you are eating less than you are burning, but (in the case of thyroid) by reducing what you burn, and in the case of IR (maybe) by making satiety harder to achieve. That's the distinction people are making, and it's an important one.I only know what l have been told by my doctor...thyroidism and diabetes can put weight on and make people retain weight.
Doesn't seem like a full explanation, not uncommon with doctors, especially if you don't have the problems.I think the OP had a point.
This is not remotely what OP said. She was talking about nutrition.Thankfully l dont have these diseases but she might. I think if the doctor told her that her condition could make her retain weight, he might be right, what do u think?
I think you are imagining/bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the OP, not sure why. But that medical conditions change calorie balance doesn't support what OP said at all. (What OP said in the opening post wasn't actually wrong -- nutrition does matter -- but claiming others ignore this or that it has anything to do with CICO is what was wrong.)
Reread OPs statement. Definitely misread her point. In fact now lm not sure what her point really was. CICO works and she did not deny that. What was her point then if not about conditions n medicine?
I think she's saying what pretty much everyone else says, whilst saying that nobody else says it ;-)12 -
CurlyCockney wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
How does that work?
My understanding of hypothyroid is that it decreases metabolism/CO, not that it allows you to put on body fat even when eating below the reduced CO. It's just hard to do so, especially since you often feel low energy, etc.
Diabetes would seem to do the opposite -- your body becomes so IR that you cannot remove glucose from the blood and convert it into fat (which isn't the main way we add body fat anyway). Presumably it also interferes with effectively using the glucose as energy or the response that tells us we are satiated, so people might eat more (I think this can go along with IR, although since weight gain often triggers IR hard to insist it was a cause rather than pre-existing), but that's again not what was asked. A common symptom of diabetes is actually weight loss, because of how it interferes with the process.
Im not sure of any of ur questions. Im not a Doctor. I just know that thyroid conditions and diabetes can make people gain and retain weight.
Not by putting on fat when you are eating less than you are burning, but (in the case of thyroid) by reducing what you burn, and in the case of IR (maybe) by making satiety harder to achieve. That's the distinction people are making, and it's an important one.I only know what l have been told by my doctor...thyroidism and diabetes can put weight on and make people retain weight.
Doesn't seem like a full explanation, not uncommon with doctors, especially if you don't have the problems.I think the OP had a point.
This is not remotely what OP said. She was talking about nutrition.Thankfully l dont have these diseases but she might. I think if the doctor told her that her condition could make her retain weight, he might be right, what do u think?
I think you are imagining/bringing in stuff that has nothing to do with the OP, not sure why. But that medical conditions change calorie balance doesn't support what OP said at all. (What OP said in the opening post wasn't actually wrong -- nutrition does matter -- but claiming others ignore this or that it has anything to do with CICO is what was wrong.)
Reread OPs statement. Definitely misread her point. In fact now lm not sure what her point really was. CICO works and she did not deny that. What was her point then if not about conditions n medicine?
I think she's saying what pretty much everyone else says, whilst saying that nobody else says it ;-)
Exactly this. (That's why I found the opening post irritating, anyway, and what I took issue with.)2 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »mish1969 hypothyroidism and diabetes don't cause people to gain weight while in a caloric deficit, they make it so the body has a harder time burning calories. Because the diseases mess with the CO side of the equation, sufferers need to lower their calorie intake, sometimes to brutally low, very difficult to achieve levels to avoid getting heavy. Saying hypothyroidism or diabetes will cause weight gain is missing a vital step, the one where the person is warned to adjust their diet appropriately or they will.
You can find plenty of users around here that have lost weight and are maintaining their weight despite having thyroid disease or diabetes because they are a complication to maintaining a healthy weight, not an automatic sentence for weight gain.
They cutting of calories brutally low is unnecessary if hypothyroidism is properly treated.
A lot of people with hypothyroidism are not properly treated for their conditions, and they need to be proactive with their doctors about this.
My poor Gramma's seems brutally low despite being treated. That's only my impression of it though and she does ok with it.
How low? Is she old and sedentary? It likely has nothing to do with her thyroid and everything to do with her age and activity level.3 -
cico for weight loss
nutrients for health
both for life
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stevencloser wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
Thyroid conditions can't make you gain fat in a deficit any more than a medical condition can make you run a marathon when you're just taking a stroll around the block.
A deficit, by definition, means you're taking in less energy than your body uses up, you will lose fat every time if you're in a deficit.
And how does not correctly processing calories = more weight gain anyway? If my car can't properly use the fuel I put in it doesn't suddenly run at a better efficiency either.
Look up cushings disease and hypothyroidism
...and what about it? I had thyroid cancer resulting in a total thyroidectomy. After this I was told that I would gain weight, but not why. The vast majority of doctors are clueless when it comes to nutritional issues and weight management. Once I found MFP and started tracking my intake and output I lost ~60lbs over a year.
These issues are what you allow them to be. You can either build it up to be more than it is or use it as a source of strength, but that is your decision.22 -
stevencloser wrote: »Indygirl_81 wrote: »I agree with the OP... CICO is not the end on be all for everyone. I can eat less calories than I expend but if they are loaded with carbs, I will gain- this is because of medical conditions. To those who don't have these, you don't understand that it does affect weight loss.... thank you OP!
Which medical condition leads to the creation of bodyfat in a calorie deficit?
Thyroid conditions and sometimes Diabetes, simply because the body isnt processing the calories correctly.
Thyroid conditions can't make you gain fat in a deficit any more than a medical condition can make you run a marathon when you're just taking a stroll around the block.
A deficit, by definition, means you're taking in less energy than your body uses up, you will lose fat every time if you're in a deficit.
And how does not correctly processing calories = more weight gain anyway? If my car can't properly use the fuel I put in it doesn't suddenly run at a better efficiency either.
Look up cushings disease and hypothyroidism
...and what about it? I had thyroid cancer resulting in a total thyroidectomy. After this I was told that I would gain weight, but not why. The vast majority of doctors are clueless when it comes to nutritional issues and weight management. Once I found MFP and started tracking my intake and output I lost ~60lbs over a year.
These issues are what you allow them to be. You can either build it up to be more than it is or use it as a source of strength, but that is your decision.
Well that is wonderful. Congratulations to u0 -
As long as you burn more calories than you eat you will lose weight. Whether you're nourished enough or not is different, as you can be malnourished at 300 pounds and you can be malnourished at 90 pounds. If you burn more than you eat. You will lose weight.1
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I always thought the threads on "can I eat X or Y?" were made mainly by people, who like me, thought ( due to myths going around) that you could never have a certain type of food again ,or eat carbs after 6 pm, or eat carbs etc. It is nice to know you can fit in food you enjoy and it won't magically undo all your effort to keep a calorie deficit. Giving that you log accurately of course.7
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Wellness vs Weight Loss; this forum has plenty of the latter, not much of the former.
You've also got stubborn types who don't really want to learn anything more than they believe to be true; so even as new research comes out regarding longevity, neurodegenerative diseases due to lacking nutrition and fuelling your body for the long haul, you get people exclaiming with glee that "Oooh I ate ice cream because I had enough calories to do it!"
If you're on a calorie deficit, you'll likely already be struggling to balance most of the micronutrients your body needs, but it's really not worth the debate here.1 -
SymbolismNZ wrote: »Wellness vs Weight Loss; this forum has plenty of the latter, not much of the former.
You've also got stubborn types who don't really want to learn anything more than they believe to be true; so even as new research comes out regarding longevity, neurodegenerative diseases due to lacking nutrition and fuelling your body for the long haul, you get people exclaiming with glee that "Oooh I ate ice cream because I had enough calories to do it!"
If you're on a calorie deficit, you'll likely already be struggling to balance most of the micronutrients your body needs, but it's really not worth the debate here.
Then on the flip side of the coin, you've got the types who don't properly vet their sources and take every bit of tinfoil hat woo they read from some charlatan as gospel. And you get them exclaiming "If you eat sugar you'll die and any carbs will make you fat and if you ever eat so much as one bite of something that isn't all natural and organic your stomach microbiome will explode and your lifespan will immediately be reduced 37 years!!!1!!1!!".22 -
I don't see anyone making those claims; which again points me to the "stubborn types who don't really want to learn anything"
For instance, you post something about refined sugar being linked to accelerated neurodegenerative diseases and hardening of your arterial wall; you get in return people refuting that sugar is addictive, or that sugar will kill you - not the argument.
For instance, you post something about carbohydrates causing inflammation within your body and being a major factor behind water retention (due to hunter/gatherer time periods and how we evolved); you get back in return people refuting that carbohydrates make you fat - not the argument.
You're hung up on your existing *kitten*, which is fine; but it means you automatically disqualify yourself in debates, because you argue points that aren't even in the debate.2
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