June 2017 Running Challenge
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@WhatMeRunning I agree with @nFoooo in that running slower should help you build your endurance, but moreso by building up the aerobic system. We rely on our aerobic system heavily for most of our runs: 5k runs derive something like around 85% of the energy requirement from the aerobic system alone. For half-marathons and marathons, that percentage jumps higher to the upper 90s (something like 97-98 percent for marathon distances). So for distance running, it appears to make a lot of sense to really focus on building up the aerobic system primarily, and that can only be done with lots and lots of miles at an easy pace (60-75 percent of max HR).
Build up the aerobic system, and you'll eventually give yourself the ability to run at a faster pace for longer. One way to think about endurance is this: not many people can run a four-minute mile, but a lot more can run a quarter mile in one minute. It's exactly the same pace...they just can't run that quarter mile pace 4x back-to-back with no resting in between.3 -
@skippygirlsmom : my thoughts and prayers are with your community and the family of that girl.....my (recently broken at the loss of my own child) heart breaks for them and the pain I know they will be feeling...and yes, new profile pic of the tattoo I had done to honor my son3
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@WhatMeRunning I agree with @nFoooo in that running slower should help you build your endurance, but moreso by building up the aerobic system. We rely on our aerobic system heavily for most of our runs: 5k runs derive something like around 85% of the energy requirement from the aerobic system alone. For half-marathons and marathons, that percentage jumps higher to the upper 90s (something like 97-98 percent for marathon distances). So for distance running, it appears to make a lot of sense to really focus on building up the aerobic system primarily, and that can only be done with lots and lots of miles at an easy pace (60-75 percent of max HR).
Build up the aerobic system, and you'll eventually give yourself the ability to run at a faster pace for longer. One way to think about endurance is this: not many people can run a four-minute mile, but a lot more can run a quarter mile in one minute. It's exactly the same pace...they just can't run that quarter mile pace 4x back-to-back with no resting in between.
I would imagine that the percentage for aerobic system usage in 5Ks goes down the faster one gets? I can't imagine a 13 minute 5K is 85% aerobic system and a 30 minute 5K is also 85% aerobic system?
As for my run, today I ran the furthest and longest I have ever in my 25+ years of living. 7 miles at a steady 10 minute mile pace (finished in something like 69:30ish). I am pretty happy with myself right now. That's 11.25 KM towards my monthly goal. I think my pace was a bit too fast, I think it was somewhere between my desired aerobic training pace and what a tempo run would be. I don't have a heart rate monitor but I felt like I could go for maybe another 30 minutes max if I really wanted to and I could speak in short-mid length sentences (felt a bit stupid speaking out loud alone at midnight while running but whatever haha). From what I gather ideally aerobic training pace would allow me to speak in mid to long range sentences whereas a tempo run would be somewhere around what I could sustain for 1 hour, so I think I was definitely in between.
My sympathies and prayers to everyone who is grieving right now, I can't imagine what you are going through.
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Hi fellow runners!
6/1: 8.7k -w/u, Tempo Run, c/d-
6/2: 10.3k -again Tempo-
6/4: 7.1k - urban running
6/6: 14.1k -Long run-
6/7: 7.3k -Easy run-
6/8: 1.5k -treadmill as w/u for strength training-
6/10: 9k -urban running-
Aim: 58k/161k
Legs feel tired from concrete and asphalt terain. Maybe hotel's treadmill next run.
Stay free of injuries!2 -
@lporter229
I have a tomtom Multisport watch. It allegedly records laps in the pool, but you need to sort of shove your hand against the side to get it to register. Or so I thought.
Last night I was cheered by the fact that my watch told me 40 laps. I knew it had missed the first one so thought fine, I've done a kilometre, let's keep going. I noticed as I swam a few more laps it was measuring 2 or 3 laps within that one lap. I got to sixty laps slightly disheartened. I don't know if I did a mile. I did something like that.2 -
Congrats on your run and reaching a new milestone!I would imagine that the percentage for aerobic system usage in 5Ks goes down the faster one gets? I can't imagine a 13 minute 5K is 85% aerobic system and a 30 minute 5K is also 85% aerobic system?
To answer your question, I think you're right if we're talking about a person running two different 5k runs with the same level of fitness for each run (that is, if 30 minutes represents an easy run, and 13 minutes represents maximal effort). But if a person starts running with a lower level of fitness, and runs a 5k in 30 minutes, and then subsequently improves their aerobic capacity over time, that would help them to keep chipping away at that time while running with the same level of effort.
Anecdote time. I started running at the end of July last year. Here are some runs of mine:
Aug 01 2016
7.78 mi (average pace: 11:27 min/mi), average HR 171 bpm
May 16 2017 (similar distance at same location)
8.04 mi (average pace: 9:56 min/mi), average HR 146 bpm
Jun 05 2017 (similar level of effort - different location)
13.44 mi (average pace: 8:13 min/mi), average HR 175 bpm
From this, I can see that as aerobic capacity has improved:- for similarly-distanced runs, I've been able to increase pace while putting in a lower overall level of effort
- for similar levels of effort, I've been able to increase pace and sustain it over a much longer period of time
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I made it. 19 miles at a not too shabby 9:07 pace. I don't know that I am ready yet for the full marathon but I think by October i will be. I've got the summer to train.11
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cburke8909 wrote: »I made it. 19 miles at a not too shabby 9:07 pace. I don't know that I am ready yet for the full marathon but I think by October i will be. I've got the summer to train.
If you're at 19 miles now, you're pretty much ready for a full. You could run one sooner than October fore sure.1 -
6/1- REST
6/2- 5.2 Miles
6/3- 19
6/4- 4.3
6/5- 4.2
6/6- 3.2
6/7- 8.0
6/8- REST
6/9- 3.2
Total: 47.1
Goal for June. Finish Marathon training well, taper well and run Grandma's well
Nominal mileage goal: 100
Today's notes: Today's assignment was 9 miles with the last 4 miles at GMP-15. It was "warm" at 63 degrees this morning, with full sun, and a not so pleasant 83% humidity. First 5 miles I averaged 9:15 (avgHR 157, a tad too high for E). Last 4 miles I averaged 8:41 (avgHR 172 too high, but I didn't have my water).
All in all, a decent run, Right when I was done, I had my new favorite recovery drink, a scoop of protein powder along with 6oz of Powerade. Got carbs, Protein and electrolytes all in one.
After this run, I'm debating ditching my compression sleeves on race day. I've run most all of my real long Long Runs with them, but on these hotter days, I'm debating ditching them to gain a little more coolness.... Ah, taper thoughts.
Have a runderful day all!
....
2017 Races Scheduled
6/16- William A Irvin 5k
6/17- Grandma's Marathon (Full!)
8/19- Rampage at the Ridge 5k OCR
9/23- Ely Marathon (full)
10/21 Wild Duluth 50k
11/23- TBD 5k Turkey Trot
Possible? 2017 Races
7/15- Eugene Curnow Trail Marathon2 -
Ha @MobyCarp I love that you and Bill have this little rivalry going. Well done on your age group win - you're way quicker than me and I'm 20 years younger!!
@MNLittleFinn - I've heard of people having (arm) sleeves that they can drench in water to help keep cool. Maybe try this before ditching them?0 -
girlinahat wrote: »@MNLittleFinn - I've heard of people having (arm) sleeves that they can drench in water to help keep cool. Maybe try this before ditching them?
That was my other though, just douse them at a few water stations. I have 6 days, 23 hours and 54 minutes to be sure...LOL0 -
We'll see how I feel the next few days. I ran well today but there was a great effort to finish. Another hour and seven miles was possible but I think most coaches would have recommended against it. If I wanted to do a marathon sooner than October I could but that would also be a summer run. This morning was in the 50s. I have not traditionally done well when the temperature is over 80.3
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7 miles for me this morning. I love the fact that I can get in 18000 steps and burn 1700 calories before I've had breakfast!!
I combined a long run with a local Parkrun. @RespectTheKitty I thought of you. I hate this Parkrun. It's up a hill, then up another hill, then turn round and go back. Apparently it's the second hilliest Parkrun in the country. I hate it because I have to break up my run and wait whilst they tell us who's doing record runs. I hate that there's many people around me in my way/overtaking me/slowing me down. I hate the hills. I hate the tarmac and I hate that I can't run at the speed I want to run because we are all treating it like a race (it's not a 'race' it's a timed run. There are no winners except against yourself. Sort of). So like you I question why I would take part.
But one of the reasons I take part in this, and also run with my club, is that I KNOW it is going to push me and make me run a bit faster. I guess I can use it as a training run, a timed session to see how I'm faring in my training.
Of course after all that activity this morning I'm now slumped on the sofa dozing in front of an episode of Columbo.6 -
@MNLittleFinn Serious question, and I guess this one goes to anyone that runs with compression sleeves: what's their purpose? Compression socks or leggings I can understand, but sleeves I'm not too clear about.
Regarding cooling, soaking with water may help, but I would think that you'd probably benefit more with cooling from allowing the sweat to evaporate. Unless it's too humid of course. I have no knowledge in this area though, so take all this with a pinch of salt while I defer to someone else who knows more!0 -
Date :::: Miles :::: Cumulative
06/01/17 :::: 2.4 :::: 2.4
06/02/17 :::: 0.0 :::: 2.4
06/03/17 :::: 8.4 :::: 10.7
06/04/17 :::: 3.1 :::: 13.9
06/05/17 :::: 3.3 :::: 17.2
06/06/17 :::: 3.5 :::: 20.7
06/07/17 :::: 5.0 :::: 25.7
06/08/17 :::: 0.0 :::: 25.7
06/09/17 :::: 3.6 :::: 29.3
06/10/17 :::: 7.8 :::: 37.0
Goal = 100 miles
Long run today - weather was very nice, so it was great to get it done before it starts heating up later today. My running buddy and I started out with a decent pace but then slowed down considerably after she tripped on something and almost rolled her ankle. She was fine fortunately, and we were both tired so it was okay with us to do a slower pace. We saw a large heron of some kind along the canal that was very close to us when it took off in flight. Very cool. Plus a family of geese with babies in the teenage awkward stage and lots of large carp (or something) flopping around with big splashes. Fun to spot the wildlife while chugging along. They were also holding a sprint tri at the park so we got to see some of that. A different kind of wildlife, if you will.
Taking a bit of a rest break and then will take my girl Stella out for a good hike. She's pacing around the yard, ready to hit the trails, but I'm still enjoying sitting and sipping my iced coffee.
Great running, everyone. Stay cool. By the way, the idea of wetting the compression sleeves is interesting. I can't imagine wanting the sleeves on in anything over about 50 degrees but maybe that would feel good.
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Lol... should have clarified.... compression CALF sleeves.@MNLittleFinn Serious question, and I guess this one goes to anyone that runs with compression sleeves: what's their purpose? Compression socks or leggings I can understand, but sleeves I'm not too clear about.
Regarding cooling, soaking with water may help, but I would think that you'd probably benefit more with cooling from allowing the sweat to evaporate. Unless it's too humid of course. I have no knowledge in this area though, so take all this with a pinch of salt while I defer to someone else who knows more!
I can answer that question though. Guys I know who do more OCR than I do wear them at races, I guess it helps with muscle soreness like my calf sleeves do.1 -
@MNLittleFinn Ah, that makes much more sense now!0
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June 10 run - 5.5 miles
June total - 31.6/100
I really need to find some caffeine in the morning. These morning runs are kicking my *kitten*. I just don't have any energy. It took over three miles to feel like I was actually getting anywhere. The last two miles were okay. I'm wanting to do a long run tomorrow and I have to go in the morning because it's supposed to get into the 90s. Yeah, need to find some caffeine.4 -
Gym today, no run. Good luck to everyone racing today!2
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40.11% of goal
01-Jun: 6.38 miles
02-Jun: 6.57 miles
03-Jun: 13.47 miles
04-Jun: <Life Day>
05-Jun: 7.45 miles
06-Jun: 6.20 miles
07-Jun: 3.23 miles for #GlobalRunningDay
08-Jun: 3.28 miles
09-Jun: 8.24 miles
10-Jun: 12.60 miles
11-Jun: <Life Day>
12-Jun:
13-Jun:
14-Jun:
15-Jun:
16-Jun:
17-Jun: - Race Day (?)
18-Jun: <Life Day>
19-Jun:
20-Jun:
21-Jun:
22-Jun:
23-Jun:
24-Jun:
25-Jun: <Life Day>
26-Jun:
27-Jun:
28-Jun:
29-Jun:
30-Jun:
Upcoming Races:
17-Jun: Papa's Peach Classic 5K, Musella (?)
04-Jul: Peachtree Road Race 10K, Atlanta4 -
@honunui I was thinking of you during all this, it's just not the way it's supposed to be. We are supposed to bury our parents, not our children. The parents have the most amazing faith just as Sarah did.
On a happier note, this will be Skip wedding:
http://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/this-couple-ran-a-half-marathon-with-60-of-their-wedding-guests?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=Social&utm_term=932401561&utm_campaign=Runner’s World
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6/1 - 6 miles
6/2 - 4 miles
6/3 - rest day
6/4 - 7 miles
6/5 - 3 miles
6/6 - rest day
6/7 - 4 miles (the Big Run 5K and warm up)
6/8 - unscheduled rest day
6/9 - 4 miles
6/10 - 3 miles
31 of 70 miles
Low 70s at 8:00 this morning. Skip has ACT today so needs her long run tomorrow so she asked me not to run long today. Probably good my legs felt tired this morning.
Signed up for the Greenway Grand Prix, it's run on 3 different greenways here, next Friday is a 5K, July 7th a 8K and July 28th a 10K.5 -
Congrats @MobyCarp on besting your mile PR and winning the race, and for staying in front of your rival!
@MNLittleFinn - Hey, I do a similar recovery drink of a scoop of protein powder, a scoop of Gatorade powder and 16oz of water shaken up in a blender bottle.
@nFoooo and @garygse I must have come across incorrectly somewhere because I was saying (or trying to say) that I had to slow down on basically every type of run except ones with a short period at maximum effort. That means easy/recovery runs, long runs, tempo runs, and many speedwork intervals. That's because my target HR should be lower than I have been training at this year and in prior years.
Probably the disconnect is over running vs walking as my slowest pace I can run is currently a bit faster than my estimated 5k pace. Any slower and my form breaks down making running slower a bad move.
That segues into another posible source of confusion about how I can take my pace at which I can maintain running a mile to pergaps 5k at and work within it to get faster by training at shorter distances. There is more than just one way to improve running pace. Bear in mind that while I receive the physiological benefits of running slower and longer, the actual physical mobility structures being targeted for strengthening are walking as much as running (more walking than running now that I have to slow down from my roughly 50/50 time split of running/walking that I had been doing). Thus why I mention a focus at shorter distances in order to target strengthening of actual running and running form and increasing pace by a period of training at shorter distances at higher efforts. These would be called speedwork or sprint workouts in many plans, and in periodization is the type of workouts done during the peak phase. The idea is to take the gains you built in the base (endurance) and preparation (stamina) phases and get faster by recruiting your fast-twitch muscle fibers, increasing VO2Max and strengthening your muscles and connective tissue. While I may have done both my base building and preparation phases at a higher than recommended effort, I did them. I built my base, doing regular weekly 3 hour long runs, two mid-week runs of 2 hours each (with tempo/speedwork efforts in the middle the last 4 weeks), and one hour easy runs. That I did so at higher effort means there was a lot more stamina work than I realized, so I'm definitely plateaued in that preparation phase. So, on to peak phase.
While I had considered my race target to be half marathon, with weekly mile in the 40-45 mile range and regular 13.5 mile long runs, I have also been running those 13.5 mile runs close to HM effort, and coming in much slower than the race pace should be. That is unlikely to change after a few weeks of peak training. What I can realistically target is a 5k at my estimated 5k pace by doing peak training to build up the added muscle strength (including fast-twitch) and increasing VO2Max. My goal would be to run an entire 5k with no walking at or near my target 5k pace.
Once that is done, I would then start back to a base building phase again, where the focus would be on easy effort mileage, with the goal of increasing aerobic capacity and establishing a higher weekly mileage.
No matter what phase you are in, at some point the law of diminishing returns will come into play. For the speedy stuff it's about 6 weeks. So my target 5k should be about 6 weeks from now. For the performance phase or stamina building stuff, again 6 weeks is a pretty good limit. I have exceeded that timeline based on what my past efforts were compared to what my newly found MaxHR is. Knowing that I came back from a 6 month running hiatus to running 40+ miles/week over a 12 week period is a base building period, even if I did do it at harder than recommended effort. As for limits in base building, you can go longer than 6 weeks but there is no firm limit before you hit diminishing returns. Maybe there isn't one. But you are not going to run your fastest possible 5k or mile by doing nothing but the same thing forever of long, slow only runs. If you only ever focus on one set of muscle fibers or a single subset of cardio/metabolic functions you are only improving in just those areas and letting the others atrophy in essence.
Someone recently said something to me when I was discussing a book by Joe Friel. The book is about how if you do not push each of your abilities, you begin to lose their function, this is what people do when they say, "I'm too old to do that any more". Simple, obvious, yet still overlooked by most people daily. The person I was discussing it with said it reminded them of a sign in a park they took walks in regularly that said, "People don't burn out, they rust out". @MobyCarp is a great example of avoiding this. He just ran his fastest mile ever. Despite being a long distance addict he pushes each and every system he can to keep them engaged and is doing truly amazing things that make my 45 year old self feel so incredibly small. It's nice to have people whose performances you will likely never match in order to help propel you along. I hope to at least be as capable in another 10+ years (outside of pure speed of course) and this means looking at everything. Not just distance, and not just how to get to that distance fastee. But at all of it. How well am I running? How strong are those muscles, of all fiber types? How durable is my running chain? Can my heart pump a higher volume of blood? Can I deliver more oxygen, burn more fat, increase lactate threshold, etc?
It kinda sucks to have been so far off in my estimated MaxHR, but unless you actually push yourself to it you can only guess at it. I thought mine would have been closer by the way I calculated it. Turns out I was off though. I'm not injured and can simply take what I now know and go forward.
I'm none too thrilled about doing long runs slower than I already run/walk them. But I will because I have to in order to make it to that point 10+ years from now.2 -
Oh, and @nFoooo, that is a very interesting point on the weight over longer distances. I suspect that does come into play for the simple obviousness of it. Many pace calculators don't take that into consideration. That Daniels spreadsheet does have weight for calculating some things, and adjusts pace for it. It may just not be very accurate at it in the weight department. I have heard from quite a few though that the Daniels pace estimates are accurate for most at one end of the distance scale and less so at the other. I've never believed the full marathon predicted time in that tool, it was always out of reach. With new data though, all of those past estimates are out the window. What I have now is new MaxHR data and actual paces at distances I have achieved on the short end of the scale. So naturally the shorter distances look right, and the longer ones look unattainable. Perhaps after a few more months they will look less ridiculous.1
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Great job @mobycarp0
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Date Miles MTD ------ ----- ------- Jun 04 5.0 5.0 Jun 05 3.6 8.6 Jun 07 3.7 12.3 Jun 09 3.6 15.9 Jun 10 5.1W 21.0 Bare Cove
OK, walking today (a short walk that turned into a long walk when we got lost). But I exercised and don't intend to run too. OR, if it works better, my running pace isn't a whole lot faster!6 -
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@WhatMeRunning Ah, I see now...sorry, my bad for misinterpreting what you originally said!1
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