Of refeeds and diet breaks
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
What I have looking back is:
Female
Age: 30
Height: ~5'3"
SW: 190 lb
CW: ~173 lb
GW: 140lb
Weight loss to date ~17 lbs (in 40 days), low carbing.
It would be nice to know what the last 2 weeks are to elimating glycogen depletion, sodium/water adjustment and food volume changes.
ETA: considering normal low carb loses, my original numbers seems accurate in terms of tdee.1 -
@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
I am obese based on Bmi over 30.since I am short, I am at 173 lbs now so I'll probably adjust my goal to 1 lbs per week. The thing is, because I am eating low carb high fat, I don't feel hungry or tired on 1000 to 1200 calorie. Sometimes I have packed snacks but don't feel like eating them. Also, I do think in general I probably under estimate as fat is so calorie dense, it is very easy to log less calorie than what I actually had.0 -
skinnyjingbb wrote: »@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
I am obese based on Bmi over 30.since I am short, I am at 173 lbs now so I'll probably adjust my goal to 1 lbs per week. The thing is, because I am eating low carb high fat, I don't feel hungry or tired on 1000 to 1200 calorie. Sometimes I have packed snacks but don't feel like eating them. Also, I do think in general I probably under estimate as fat is so calorie dense, it is very easy to log less calorie than what I actually had.
How much protein are you eating? And do you work out?0 -
skinnyjingbb wrote: »@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
I am obese based on Bmi over 30.since I am short, I am at 173 lbs now so I'll probably adjust my goal to 1 lbs per week. The thing is, because I am eating low carb high fat, I don't feel hungry or tired on 1000 to 1200 calorie. Sometimes I have packed snacks but don't feel like eating them. Also, I do think in general I probably under estimate as fat is so calorie dense, it is very easy to log less calorie than what I actually had.
Again, is there a reason you are doing low carb? It has no additional weight loss benefits (ie you won't lose faster, other than the initial water weight).
And I don't think you are under-logging given your rate of loss.1 -
I adjusted to 1 lbs a week now new goal is 1340 cal a week, as for exercise, my low intensity cardio usually be around 200 kcal, so I am hesitant to eat them back unless I feel hungry, but I'll probably eat more if I do more intense workout0
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skinnyjingbb wrote: »I adjusted to 1 lbs a week now new goal is 1340 cal a week, as for exercise, my low intensity cardio usually be around 200 kcal, so I am hesitant to eat them back unless I feel hungry, but I'll probably eat more if I do more intense workout
Outside of weight loss, what are your goals?0 -
skinnyjingbb wrote: »I adjusted to 1 lbs a week now new goal is 1340 cal a week, as for exercise, my low intensity cardio usually be around 200 kcal, so I am hesitant to eat them back unless I feel hungry, but I'll probably eat more if I do more intense workout
Eat at least another 100 cals on exercise days. You need to fuel your body properly.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »skinnyjingbb wrote: »@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
I am obese based on Bmi over 30.since I am short, I am at 173 lbs now so I'll probably adjust my goal to 1 lbs per week. The thing is, because I am eating low carb high fat, I don't feel hungry or tired on 1000 to 1200 calorie. Sometimes I have packed snacks but don't feel like eating them. Also, I do think in general I probably under estimate as fat is so calorie dense, it is very easy to log less calorie than what I actually had.
Again, is there a reason you are doing low carb? It has no additional weight loss benefits (ie you won't lose faster, other than the initial water weight).
And I don't think you are under-logging given your rate of loss.
I choose low carb because it's easier for me since I never ate lot of starchy food, so cut out rice and bread etc is no problem. I used to over indulge on sweets, but this temptation is easier to avoid compare to other things. Also, since I am not going as low as keto level, I do eat fruit and would have one bite of cake when desired( I cut the rest to bite side pieces and freeze them if no one to share). Also, in the past when I over ate one day during diet, I just can't get back on again because I would have strong cravings and the weight just come in back, so that's why I am trying this, so far so good, like during thanksgiving, I was over budget but had no problem getting back to my budget the next day. I am not trying to achieve ketosis, just cut out sugar and carb is the easiest way to restrict calorie for me1 -
skinnyjingbb wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »skinnyjingbb wrote: »@skinnyjingbb are you well into the obese range with a TDEE around 4000 Cal a day?
That would be the level where a 1000 Cal a day deficit makes sense.
You have to have enough fat available to lose to support the deficit you're chosing.
If your actual TDEE is 1500 Cal (which I don't believe to be correct) and you're obese, then the maximum deficit you should be trying for is no more than 25%, i.e. ~375 Cal. If overweight it would be 20% and ~300 Cal!
Well based on her loss rate and intake, her maintenance is no less than 1750 to 2200 (1.5 to 2 lb per week at 1000 to 1200. Consider the limitations of logging, its actually probably higher.
So what deficit would you suggest as appropriate for her @psuLemon ? <shovel pass>
Anywhere that would allow for her to lose between .5 to 1% bf per week.
But if we can stats, i can run calories and macros and more if they want.
I am obese based on Bmi over 30.since I am short, I am at 173 lbs now so I'll probably adjust my goal to 1 lbs per week. The thing is, because I am eating low carb high fat, I don't feel hungry or tired on 1000 to 1200 calorie. Sometimes I have packed snacks but don't feel like eating them. Also, I do think in general I probably under estimate as fat is so calorie dense, it is very easy to log less calorie than what I actually had.
Again, is there a reason you are doing low carb? It has no additional weight loss benefits (ie you won't lose faster, other than the initial water weight).
And I don't think you are under-logging given your rate of loss.
I choose low carb because it's easier for me since I never ate lot of starchy food, so cut out rice and bread etc is no problem. I used to over indulge on sweets, but this temptation is easier to avoid compare to other things. Also, since I am not going as low as keto level, I do eat fruit and would have one bite of cake when desired( I cut the rest to bite side pieces and freeze them if no one to share). Also, in the past when I over ate one day during diet, I just can't get back on again because I would have strong cravings and the weight just come in back, so that's why I am trying this, so far so good, like during thanksgiving, I was over budget but had no problem getting back to my budget the next day. I am not trying to achieve ketosis, just cut out sugar and carb is the easiest way to restrict calorie for me
Okay, that's fine then
. If this is something you think is sustainable for you and that you can adhere to long term, it's all good. I personally tend towards lower carb when at a deficit myself, because it leaves more room for protein and fats, and I can't eat half the carbs I like now anyway thanks to food intolerances!!
Do really try to hit that new calorie goal though. Losing too fast is not a good thing.4 -
Yes, I think I'll keep to about 1400 a day and eat back half of exercise calorie for a while and adjust if needed. I'll probably be back of I can manage to reach 160 at the end of the next year. Cause that's the point where I used to struggle to maintain and weight just bounced back.1
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skinnyjingbb wrote: »Yes, I think I'll keep to about 1400 a day and eat back half of exercise calorie for a while and adjust if needed. I'll probably be back of I can manage to reach 160 at the end of the next year. Cause that's the point where I used to struggle to maintain and weight just bounced back.
With 13 lbs to reach 160, you're not going to get there by the end of the year sorry. Four lbs would be perfect. But end of year is probably a good time for you to take a diet break. You may like to have that coincide with Christmas for convenience.4 -
sorry typo, I meant goal of 140lbs at the end of 2018.Nony_Mouse wrote: »skinnyjingbb wrote: »Yes, I think I'll keep to about 1400 a day and eat back half of exercise calorie for a while and adjust if needed. I'll probably be back of I can manage to reach 160 at the end of the next year. Cause that's the point where I used to struggle to maintain and weight just bounced back.
With 13 lbs to reach 160, you're not going to get there by the end of the year sorry. Four lbs would be perfect. But end of year is probably a good time for you to take a diet break. You may like to have that coincide with Christmas for convenience.2 -
skinnyjingbb wrote: »
sorry typo, I meant goal of 140lbs at the end of 2018.Nony_Mouse wrote: »skinnyjingbb wrote: »Yes, I think I'll keep to about 1400 a day and eat back half of exercise calorie for a while and adjust if needed. I'll probably be back of I can manage to reach 160 at the end of the next year. Cause that's the point where I used to struggle to maintain and weight just bounced back.
With 13 lbs to reach 160, you're not going to get there by the end of the year sorry. Four lbs would be perfect. But end of year is probably a good time for you to take a diet break. You may like to have that coincide with Christmas for convenience.
Yep, you can definitely do that 3 -
I just want to commend @GottaBurnEmAll for the insight. It’s definitely a mental barrier to see and recognize what we may have done in the past vs what we choose to do now. But it’s exemplary of my suggestion to navigate through recognized triggers. We can either deny them for what they are (usually results in past behavior) or accept them and control what we do with them (new modified behavior).
It’s also a really good example of how to recognize signaling when your body is asking for its own refeed. Because we can reason with ourselves and white knuckle through the signal, it represses the initial urge only to come back later. Again, it’s all an undulating wavelength that we go through. There are moments of hedonic signaling for whatever reason (stress, reward, recovery, repletion, etc., expressed as ravenous hunger) and moments of homeostatic satiety, usually signified as days where we just aren’t generally hungry.
There’s no right way to eat or perfect meal timing to follow. We can entrain circadian feeding just like we can train ghrelin to stimulate hunger at specific times. We can also learn to restrict or overfeed beyond signaling. The body will play along within limits and it will respond accordingly. It almost becomes philosophical because the body is that adaptive to stimuli. Trying to quantify an astronomical amount of cellular processes to a definable number representing a snapshot in time is a ball ache to say the least.
@Maxxitt’s post probably the best representative of “it just works” and without delving too deep into the nitty gritty. And that’s perfect.
I think I said this before, but one of the reasons I am doing the maintenance eating, the surplus/bulk, the refeeds and the diet breaks this time around is because I know am in control and I feel it now. I am also in control when the triggers happen and I spiral. The choices I make in reaction to the triggers are what matters. I have only had one trigger and reaction since 5 or so years ago and I did not spiral this time because acid, burning throat, uncomfortable feelings, guilt, shame, secrecy, the usual ED stuff. I just brushed it off like I meant business (acknowledged the act) and it worked. I guess it boils down to practice.
It has taken me many, many years to get here. I am 43 now, was 16 when it all began. It is great to be supported by a few who have been through and some who are still struggling with those "demons". I do not binge anymore, that particular reaction has not occurred for more than 5 years. The re-feed I did recently was controlled, was quite fun and did not feel like a binge, that has a total overwhelming, rushed, horrible, heart-racing, blood pressure right up kind of feel. The feeling of being full can be a trigger, but it no longer is, the longer I watch my body doing these amazing things with what was my old enemy - food. I no longer restrict, except for controlled and careful deficits, I want to eat as much as I can and lose, not cut out the enjoyment and the fuel. Besides I want to retain the lean mass!
I did have the odd little voice in the back of my head want to restrict and do this whole plan a lot differently before I started it all, but I knew that would not work and I knew that my body would fight and my mind would end up wanting to spiral. I had doubts and I was very nervous. I kinda know the focus and obsession with the food planning and the workout planning are a displacement of sorts, but the spirally, out of control feel is not there, I do not want to go to those extremes anymore.
I have taken the slow approach too, as I knew that trying to do 500 cal steps upwards would definitely be a trigger (for longer than a 3 day re-feed at least) for me. So far, so good. I am still feeling a little nauseous, day 4 into surplus. I just need to time things better and relax more. Apologies for the non-scientific rambling. This whole thread and space here totally resonates.10 -
nexangelus wrote: »I just want to commend @GottaBurnEmAll for the insight. It’s definitely a mental barrier to see and recognize what we may have done in the past vs what we choose to do now. But it’s exemplary of my suggestion to navigate through recognized triggers. We can either deny them for what they are (usually results in past behavior) or accept them and control what we do with them (new modified behavior).
It’s also a really good example of how to recognize signaling when your body is asking for its own refeed. Because we can reason with ourselves and white knuckle through the signal, it represses the initial urge only to come back later. Again, it’s all an undulating wavelength that we go through. There are moments of hedonic signaling for whatever reason (stress, reward, recovery, repletion, etc., expressed as ravenous hunger) and moments of homeostatic satiety, usually signified as days where we just aren’t generally hungry.
There’s no right way to eat or perfect meal timing to follow. We can entrain circadian feeding just like we can train ghrelin to stimulate hunger at specific times. We can also learn to restrict or overfeed beyond signaling. The body will play along within limits and it will respond accordingly. It almost becomes philosophical because the body is that adaptive to stimuli. Trying to quantify an astronomical amount of cellular processes to a definable number representing a snapshot in time is a ball ache to say the least.
@Maxxitt’s post probably the best representative of “it just works” and without delving too deep into the nitty gritty. And that’s perfect.
I think I said this before, but one of the reasons I am doing the maintenance eating, the surplus/bulk, the refeeds and the diet breaks this time around is because I know am in control and I feel it now. I am also in control when the triggers happen and I spiral. The choices I make in reaction to the triggers are what matters. I have only had one trigger and reaction since 5 or so years ago and I did not spiral this time because acid, burning throat, uncomfortable feelings, guilt, shame, secrecy, the usual ED stuff. I just brushed it off like I meant business (acknowledged the act) and it worked. I guess it boils down to practice.
It has taken me many, many years to get here. I am 43 now, was 16 when it all began. It is great to be supported by a few who have been through and some who are still struggling with those "demons". I do not binge anymore, that particular reaction has not occurred for more than 5 years. The re-feed I did recently was controlled, was quite fun and did not feel like a binge, that has a total overwhelming, rushed, horrible, heart-racing, blood pressure right up kind of feel. The feeling of being full can be a trigger, but it no longer is, the longer I watch my body doing these amazing things with what was my old enemy - food. I no longer restrict, except for controlled and careful deficits, I want to eat as much as I can and lose, not cut out the enjoyment and the fuel. Besides I want to retain the lean mass!
I did have the odd little voice in the back of my head want to restrict and do this whole plan a lot differently before I started it all, but I knew that would not work and I knew that my body would fight and my mind would end up wanting to spiral. I had doubts and I was very nervous. I kinda know the focus and obsession with the food planning and the workout planning are a displacement of sorts, but the spirally, out of control feel is not there, I do not want to go to those extremes anymore.
I have taken the slow approach too, as I knew that trying to do 500 cal steps upwards would definitely be a trigger (for longer than a 3 day re-feed at least) for me. So far, so good. I am still feeling a little nauseous, day 4 into surplus. I just need to time things better and relax more. Apologies for the non-scientific rambling. This whole thread and space here totally resonates.
It is heartening to read the experiences of people who have been there and knowing they can come through.
This isn't the first time in my life that I have found myself teetering on brink with disordered behavior. I did this before with alcohol when I was younger, and while it wasn't pretty, I did stop myself short and quit drinking before it became what I'd call being a true disorder.
I think the same thing happened here with eating behaviors, but I'm still battling those demons that wanted to push me over the edge.
I think it's good that we're adding all of this extra information to this thread, because I think some of the scale shenanigans that go on, especially for women, during weight loss, can be problematic psychologically. I tend to think it's helpful to have a frank discussion about the emotions that this whole process can trigger, the issues that some of us are facing, and how smarter strategies like knowing the science of what's going on in our bodies can be helpful in empowering us.10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »nexangelus wrote: »I just want to commend @GottaBurnEmAll for the insight. It’s definitely a mental barrier to see and recognize what we may have done in the past vs what we choose to do now. But it’s exemplary of my suggestion to navigate through recognized triggers. We can either deny them for what they are (usually results in past behavior) or accept them and control what we do with them (new modified behavior).
It’s also a really good example of how to recognize signaling when your body is asking for its own refeed. Because we can reason with ourselves and white knuckle through the signal, it represses the initial urge only to come back later. Again, it’s all an undulating wavelength that we go through. There are moments of hedonic signaling for whatever reason (stress, reward, recovery, repletion, etc., expressed as ravenous hunger) and moments of homeostatic satiety, usually signified as days where we just aren’t generally hungry.
There’s no right way to eat or perfect meal timing to follow. We can entrain circadian feeding just like we can train ghrelin to stimulate hunger at specific times. We can also learn to restrict or overfeed beyond signaling. The body will play along within limits and it will respond accordingly. It almost becomes philosophical because the body is that adaptive to stimuli. Trying to quantify an astronomical amount of cellular processes to a definable number representing a snapshot in time is a ball ache to say the least.
@Maxxitt’s post probably the best representative of “it just works” and without delving too deep into the nitty gritty. And that’s perfect.
I think I said this before, but one of the reasons I am doing the maintenance eating, the surplus/bulk, the refeeds and the diet breaks this time around is because I know am in control and I feel it now. I am also in control when the triggers happen and I spiral. The choices I make in reaction to the triggers are what matters. I have only had one trigger and reaction since 5 or so years ago and I did not spiral this time because acid, burning throat, uncomfortable feelings, guilt, shame, secrecy, the usual ED stuff. I just brushed it off like I meant business (acknowledged the act) and it worked. I guess it boils down to practice.
It has taken me many, many years to get here. I am 43 now, was 16 when it all began. It is great to be supported by a few who have been through and some who are still struggling with those "demons". I do not binge anymore, that particular reaction has not occurred for more than 5 years. The re-feed I did recently was controlled, was quite fun and did not feel like a binge, that has a total overwhelming, rushed, horrible, heart-racing, blood pressure right up kind of feel. The feeling of being full can be a trigger, but it no longer is, the longer I watch my body doing these amazing things with what was my old enemy - food. I no longer restrict, except for controlled and careful deficits, I want to eat as much as I can and lose, not cut out the enjoyment and the fuel. Besides I want to retain the lean mass!
I did have the odd little voice in the back of my head want to restrict and do this whole plan a lot differently before I started it all, but I knew that would not work and I knew that my body would fight and my mind would end up wanting to spiral. I had doubts and I was very nervous. I kinda know the focus and obsession with the food planning and the workout planning are a displacement of sorts, but the spirally, out of control feel is not there, I do not want to go to those extremes anymore.
I have taken the slow approach too, as I knew that trying to do 500 cal steps upwards would definitely be a trigger (for longer than a 3 day re-feed at least) for me. So far, so good. I am still feeling a little nauseous, day 4 into surplus. I just need to time things better and relax more. Apologies for the non-scientific rambling. This whole thread and space here totally resonates.
It is heartening to read the experiences of people who have been there and knowing they can come through.
This isn't the first time in my life that I have found myself teetering on brink with disordered behavior. I did this before with alcohol when I was younger, and while it wasn't pretty, I did stop myself short and quit drinking before it became what I'd call being a true disorder.
I think the same thing happened here with eating behaviors, but I'm still battling those demons that wanted to push me over the edge.
I think it's good that we're adding all of this extra information to this thread, because I think some of the scale shenanigans that go on, especially for women, during weight loss, can be problematic psychologically. I tend to think it's helpful to have a frank discussion about the emotions that this whole process can trigger, the issues that some of us are facing, and how smarter strategies like knowing the science of what's going on in our bodies can be helpful in empowering us.
Yep, another of my favourite things about this thread - open, candid, heartfelt discussion of the *kitten* things some of us have put our bodies through (not necessarily in the name of weight loss, but same net effect).
Interesting thought from me first thing in the morning (yes, my brain may be working!!) - I've mentioned previously that the way I feel on pred, the hyperness, forgetting to eat cos not really hungry, etc, is very similar to my high level anxiety that has previously led me down the rabbit hole of ED 2.0 - it's the *kitten* cortisol spike, isn't it?
This is also why I chose to track rather than trying to wing a surplus (which I only managed to do one day anyway) - because my little brain very possibly would have told me I'd managed that way before I had. Srsly, if not for those mega shakes, I'd have been screwed.6 -
I had some intestinal trouble yesterday and I'm pretty sure I emptied out my system (sorry tmi). The scale dropped to 186.0 lbs this morning from 188.6 yesterday. I expect a little rebound tomorrow as long as my body holds steady today. I was hoping for a fast whoosh, but I think some of that was just from crummy tummy.0
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Everyone is over hear sharing really heartfelt posts, and I'm like "I pooped a lot yesterday!"
Just gonna crawl back into my awkward introvert corner.9 -
@Maxxitt’s post probably the best representative of “it just works” and without delving too deep into the nitty gritty. And that’s perfect.
Oh, I have delved But once I commit to a process, I look at it as "data gathering" and give it 6-8 weeks to tell me the story. Over the decades this strategy has helped me quell anxiety and the resulting compulsion to try to micro-manage, which often causes more trouble than it fixes.
5
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