Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
This decades “health woo”
Replies
-
Hopefully, whatever the likes of "Drs" Oz and Mercola dream up, the fad for putting that vile plant kale in everything will go away. Almost any green is preferable to that devil's weed.
Ha, ha. I love kale. I will agree that the idea of a "superfood" whether it's kale, quinoa, chia, pomegranate etc. is total hoakum.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anti-vax, anti-GMO, "organic", "natural". I'm not a terribly political person but for a while there I thought the right in the United States had a pretty strong lead in the conspiracy theory nutjobbery until I ran into these communities of "activists".
none of these are unique to the left. There are TONS of believers in all of these among your right-wing, evangelical, suburb demographics. Especially anti-vax. The current, Republican, president is an anti-vaxxer.
anti-GMO is more on the far left, but it also cut across political ideologies.
There is a difference between saying "unique to..." and saying something is "subscribed to". I was saying the latter, never meant to imply it was an exclusive club. Sure, right-wing people can be anti Vax or anti GMO but those movements are heavily subscribed to by the left in a way that other conspiracies are not.4 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I don't think most people who don't like GMOs or vaccines want much power, most people don't. Obviously some turn their pet worry into a media career but got every one of those there are a thousand quiet followers who are just looking their day to day lives.
I suspect they have varied reasons. One of the original OJ jurors voted not guilty because she took a pregnancy test that gave the wrong answer, and therefore didn't trust science.
I absolutely think they want power, even if not for themselves individually, but for people who share their beliefs. That's still definitely definable as wanting power.
Well defined that way anyone who wants to effect change or see change occur wants power. I'm not saying that is necessarily wrong but it is pretty broad.
I think Cascades just meant on an individual level people don't choose to be outspoken and activist about those issues as a means of fame or power acquisition. Then again phrased like that really what activism is about power?3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anti-vax, anti-GMO, "organic", "natural". I'm not a terribly political person but for a while there I thought the right in the United States had a pretty strong lead in the conspiracy theory nutjobbery until I ran into these communities of "activists".
none of these are unique to the left. There are TONS of believers in all of these among your right-wing, evangelical, suburb demographics. Especially anti-vax. The current, Republican, president is an anti-vaxxer.
anti-GMO is more on the far left, but it also cut across political ideologies.
There is a difference between saying "unique to..." and saying something is "subscribed to". I was saying the latter, never meant to imply it was an exclusive club. Sure, right-wing people can be anti Vax or anti GMO but those movements are heavily subscribed to by the left in a way that other conspiracies are not.
they're not by a long shot. the anti-vax and anti-gmo are absolutely minorities among the left. The left probably has more anti-GMO folks than the right does, but they're still a fraction of the whole. There are many of course who believe it for the marketing hype and think it's healthier, but that's is a MASSIVE difference from the ones who think GMO should be banned because they're unsafe. Lots of people "on the left" are pro-organic/whole food/natural, but not all of them are anti-GMO. Not by a mile. And at a minimum, anti-GMO beliefs aren't nearly as widespread on the left as climate change denial is on the right. That balance isn't even close.10 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »Chronic Lyme Disease
Morgellon's
Actually i know a woman that took 30 years to be diagnosed properly with Lymes. ...its a terrible disease.
The lyme disease I'm referring to is the vague collection of symptoms that people have for years which are probably just general anxiety but since they can't accept that their brain is wrong they travel from doctor to doctor who all clear them health wise and then they wind up at a naturopath/herbalist who diagnoses them with Lyme disease.5 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anti-vax, anti-GMO, "organic", "natural". I'm not a terribly political person but for a while there I thought the right in the United States had a pretty strong lead in the conspiracy theory nutjobbery until I ran into these communities of "activists".
none of these are unique to the left. There are TONS of believers in all of these among your right-wing, evangelical, suburb demographics. Especially anti-vax. The current, Republican, president is an anti-vaxxer.
anti-GMO is more on the far left, but it also cut across political ideologies.
There is a difference between saying "unique to..." and saying something is "subscribed to". I was saying the latter, never meant to imply it was an exclusive club. Sure, right-wing people can be anti Vax or anti GMO but those movements are heavily subscribed to by the left in a way that other conspiracies are not.
they're not by a long shot. the anti-vax and anti-gmo are absolutely minorities among the left. The left probably has more anti-GMO folks than the right does, but they're still a fraction of the whole. There are many of course who believe it for the marketing hype and think it's healthier, but that's is a MASSIVE difference from the ones who think GMO should be banned because they're unsafe. Lots of people "on the left" are pro-organic/whole food/natural, but not all of them are anti-GMO. Not by a mile.
I think you are taking what I am saying to some ridiculous extreme in order to dispute that even though that isn't what I am saying. I never said that the majority, or even a large minority, of those in the left are anti-vax or anti-gmo. I said those movements are heavily subscribed to by those who consider themselves left-leaning....because they kind of are. That's okay, it's just of note in my life because I am left leaning and for a while I was smug enough to think that sort of conspiracy theory weirdness was the domain of the right. That changed when I attempted to talk to members of those movements and I was just sharing my revelation.
This is why I am not very political by the way, as soon as you stick a political label on something it becomes very hard to actually talk about it.10 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anti-vax, anti-GMO, "organic", "natural". I'm not a terribly political person but for a while there I thought the right in the United States had a pretty strong lead in the conspiracy theory nutjobbery until I ran into these communities of "activists".
none of these are unique to the left. There are TONS of believers in all of these among your right-wing, evangelical, suburb demographics. Especially anti-vax. The current, Republican, president is an anti-vaxxer.
anti-GMO is more on the far left, but it also cut across political ideologies.
There is a difference between saying "unique to..." and saying something is "subscribed to". I was saying the latter, never meant to imply it was an exclusive club. Sure, right-wing people can be anti Vax or anti GMO but those movements are heavily subscribed to by the left in a way that other conspiracies are not.
they're not by a long shot. the anti-vax and anti-gmo are absolutely minorities among the left. The left probably has more anti-GMO folks than the right does, but they're still a fraction of the whole. There are many of course who believe it for the marketing hype and think it's healthier, but that's is a MASSIVE difference from the ones who think GMO should be banned because they're unsafe. Lots of people "on the left" are pro-organic/whole food/natural, but not all of them are anti-GMO. Not by a mile.
I think you are taking what I am saying to some ridiculous extreme in order to dispute that even though that isn't what I am saying. I never said that the majority, or even a large minority, of those in the left are anti-vax or anti-gmo.
This is why I am not very political by the way, as soon as you stick a political label on something it becomes very hard to actually talk about it.
ok, i see where I went off course.
If we're just talking about tendency toward conspiracy theories, you're not talking about your average granola crunching hippy. You might find people with generalized apprehension of GMOs, but you will also find some hard core conspiracists who think that Monsanto owns the government, every FDA scientist is secretly on Monsanto's payroll, etc. (always Monsanto for some reason)
We also have our share of moon landing deniers, flat earthers, and 9/11 truthers, and any other fringe nonsense you can think up.
I think that acceptance of conspiracy theories is more MAINSTREAM on the right than the left, but I don't think either side has a monopoly or even a lead in crazy pants tin foiling.6 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Anti-vax, anti-GMO, "organic", "natural". I'm not a terribly political person but for a while there I thought the right in the United States had a pretty strong lead in the conspiracy theory nutjobbery until I ran into these communities of "activists".
none of these are unique to the left. There are TONS of believers in all of these among your right-wing, evangelical, suburb demographics. Especially anti-vax. The current, Republican, president is an anti-vaxxer.
anti-GMO is more on the far left, but it also cut across political ideologies.
There is a difference between saying "unique to..." and saying something is "subscribed to". I was saying the latter, never meant to imply it was an exclusive club. Sure, right-wing people can be anti Vax or anti GMO but those movements are heavily subscribed to by the left in a way that other conspiracies are not.
they're not by a long shot. the anti-vax and anti-gmo are absolutely minorities among the left. The left probably has more anti-GMO folks than the right does, but they're still a fraction of the whole. There are many of course who believe it for the marketing hype and think it's healthier, but that's is a MASSIVE difference from the ones who think GMO should be banned because they're unsafe. Lots of people "on the left" are pro-organic/whole food/natural, but not all of them are anti-GMO. Not by a mile.
I think you are taking what I am saying to some ridiculous extreme in order to dispute that even though that isn't what I am saying. I never said that the majority, or even a large minority, of those in the left are anti-vax or anti-gmo.
This is why I am not very political by the way, as soon as you stick a political label on something it becomes very hard to actually talk about it.
ok, i see where I went off course.
If we're just talking about tendency toward conspiracy theories, you're not talking about your average granola crunching hippy. You might find people with generalized apprehension of GMOs, but you will also find some hard core conspiracists who think that Monsanto owns the government, every FDA scientist is secretly on Monsanto's payroll, etc. (always Monsanto for some reason)
We also have our share of moon landing deniers, flat earthers, and 9/11 truthers, and any other fringe nonsense you can think up.
I think that acceptance of conspiracy theories is more MAINSTREAM on the right than the left, but I don't think either side has a monopoly or even a lead in crazy pants tin foiling.
Totally understood, no worries man. Cheers1 -
byustrongman wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »Chronic Lyme Disease
Morgellon's
Actually i know a woman that took 30 years to be diagnosed properly with Lymes. ...its a terrible disease.
The lyme disease I'm referring to is the vague collection of symptoms that people have for years which are probably just general anxiety but since they can't accept that their brain is wrong they travel from doctor to doctor who all clear them health wise and then they wind up at a naturopath/herbalist who diagnoses them with Lyme disease.
But Lyme disease is diagnosed with a blood test. If the blood test is positive, you have Lyme. Negative blood test, no Lyme. Hypochondriacs will always think they're sick with something, but Lyme is a legit and testable disease.9 -
VioletRojo wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »Chronic Lyme Disease
Morgellon's
Actually i know a woman that took 30 years to be diagnosed properly with Lymes. ...its a terrible disease.
The lyme disease I'm referring to is the vague collection of symptoms that people have for years which are probably just general anxiety but since they can't accept that their brain is wrong they travel from doctor to doctor who all clear them health wise and then they wind up at a naturopath/herbalist who diagnoses them with Lyme disease.
But Lyme disease is diagnosed with a blood test. If the blood test is positive, you have Lyme. Negative blood test, no Lyme. Hypochondriacs will always think they're sick with something, but Lyme is a legit and testable disease.
I think that maybe what many object to is those who claim a health problem (lyme or hashimoto's) without a positive test, or being tested for it.
Then again, science does fail. I am negative for hashi's in the lab but my thyroid stopped working a few years ago and I have other autoimmune diseases.4 -
VioletRojo wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »byustrongman wrote: »Chronic Lyme Disease
Morgellon's
Actually i know a woman that took 30 years to be diagnosed properly with Lymes. ...its a terrible disease.
The lyme disease I'm referring to is the vague collection of symptoms that people have for years which are probably just general anxiety but since they can't accept that their brain is wrong they travel from doctor to doctor who all clear them health wise and then they wind up at a naturopath/herbalist who diagnoses them with Lyme disease.
But Lyme disease is diagnosed with a blood test. If the blood test is positive, you have Lyme. Negative blood test, no Lyme. Hypochondriacs will always think they're sick with something, but Lyme is a legit and testable disease.
I'd encourage you to do a bit more research.... Lyme is much more complicated than a simple blood test. The bacteria that causes it can be stealthy3 -
This content has been removed.
-
I don't know what half of these things are, I must be reading the wrong (or is that right) things.1
-
The Lyme's blood test is accurate within the initial period of infection when the antibodies are rampant. Often the initial phase is missed by doctors because the "rash" associated with Lyme's can be insignificant or none existent, in the absence of the rash it is considered one has simple flu. Once the initial phase is past the bacteria hides itself within the tissue, the immune system down regulates its response, then some time later there is a breakout often when the person is laid low by something else. Its a similar thing to how chicken pox contracted when younger expresses itself later as shingles. Fortunately awareness in problem areas is increasing, but not before time. Delayed Lyme's tests are void because the levels are never as high again.
There is some work which thinks it is no longer only a tick born problem gnats and midges can be carriers too depending on blood they have tapped. Also work is being done on more accurate tests/
Info from a Czech friend who's daughter is afflicted.6 -
The Lyme's blood test is accurate within the initial period of infection when the antibodies are rampant. Often the initial phase is missed by doctors because the "rash" associated with Lyme's can be insignificant or none existent, in the absence of the rash it is considered one has simple flu. Once the initial phase is past the bacteria hides itself within the tissue, the immune system down regulates its response, then some time later there is a breakout often when the person is laid low by something else. Its a similar thing to how chicken pox contracted when younger expresses itself later as shingles. Fortunately awareness in problem areas is increasing, but not before time. Delayed Lyme's tests are void because the levels are never as high again.
There is some work which thinks it is no longer only a tick born problem gnats and midges can be carriers too depending on blood they have tapped. Also work is being done on more accurate tests/
Info from a Czech friend who's daughter is afflicted.
There are also some interesting(IMO) parallels with Leprosy in the way they infect and pervade the body, not symptomatically obviously
1 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »Ooh,I almost forgot: adrenal fatigue !
^^ this! I asked someone spouting information on "adrenal fatigue" on a triathlon forum if they have any journal articles about diagnosis etc...i got a bunch of links to "woo" websites4 -
-
I think today's biggest woo is the Paleo Diet. So much nonsense but just their stance on legumes is enough.7
-
The Lyme's blood test is accurate within the initial period of infection when the antibodies are rampant. Often the initial phase is missed by doctors because the "rash" associated with Lyme's can be insignificant or none existent, in the absence of the rash it is considered one has simple flu. Once the initial phase is past the bacteria hides itself within the tissue, the immune system down regulates its response, then some time later there is a breakout often when the person is laid low by something else. Its a similar thing to how chicken pox contracted when younger expresses itself later as shingles. Fortunately awareness in problem areas is increasing, but not before time. Delayed Lyme's tests are void because the levels are never as high again.
There is some work which thinks it is no longer only a tick born problem gnats and midges can be carriers too depending on blood they have tapped. Also work is being done on more accurate tests/
Info from a Czech friend who's daughter is afflicted.
Interesting.0 -
This content has been removed.
-
deannalfisher wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Ooh,I almost forgot: adrenal fatigue !
^^ this! I asked someone spouting information on "adrenal fatigue" on a triathlon forum if they have any journal articles about diagnosis etc...i got a bunch of links to "woo" websites
As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that it's actually a thing. I actually have suppressed adrenal function, from long term steroid use. But adrenal fatigue is just a set of symptoms which could be attributed to anything1 -
RE: Chronic Lyme
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4477530/
"Even if CLD lacks biological legitimacy, its importance as a phenomenon can be monumental to the individual patient. This is because many if not most patients who believe they have this condition are suffering, in many cases for years. Many have undergone frustrating, expensive, and ultimately fruitless medical evaluations, and many have become quite disaffected with a medical system that has failed to provide answers, let alone relief."2 -
comptonelizabeth wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »comptonelizabeth wrote: »Ooh,I almost forgot: adrenal fatigue !
^^ this! I asked someone spouting information on "adrenal fatigue" on a triathlon forum if they have any journal articles about diagnosis etc...i got a bunch of links to "woo" websites
As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that it's actually a thing. I actually have suppressed adrenal function, from long term steroid use. But adrenal fatigue is just a set of symptoms which could be attributed to anything
there isn't...the American Endocrine Society actually posted an article about it a few months ago2 -
lporter229 wrote: »I think the protein obsession is getting out of hand.
+18 -
deannalfisher wrote: »I vote for hypothyroid. The ultimate fad disease. Just about everyone here claims they have it, and blame their weight problem on it.
When a thyroid panel is done and all the levels are abnormal, either high or low, and you need to be put on meds to normalize it, then it is a disease, not a fad. People don't claim to have it, clinical test prove it. What about Hashimoto? Is it a autoimmune disease also a fad? Do you also consider diabetes T2 a fad disease ?
i'll say this - I had all the thyroid panels done multiple times and they were always "normal" - until the doctor discovered a tumor (which by the way you could see physically feel on my thyroid) - when I had my thyroidectomy - the surgeon asked me if I knew that I had Hashimoto's - I had all the symptoms over the years but was never actually diagnosed because of blood work being normal
I had a similar problem. I was showing signs of hypothyroidism in my teens, but my doctor at the time kept insisting my levels were normal. It wasn't until as an adult I began researching it that I found that what was considered "normal" had changed.
I also had 3 large goiters that were found by accident while having a neck ultrasound for something else. I had been seeing a endocrynologist for a couple of years by this point for PCOS, but was floored when the technician asked if I knew I had goiters. After my uncle was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, my doctor pushed to have my thyroid removed as the goiters were getting larger, and even the surgeon said she couldn't feel them and wouldn't have believe they were there without the ultrasound. Turns out they were cancerous.
I'm pushing my sister now to see an endocrynologist. She's having health issues that are systematic of thyroid problems, and I'm concerned, especially with the family history of thyroid cancer, but her doctor did bloodwork and just told her "it was normal". Wouldn't even give her the numbers. Just like this doctor told her her cholesterol was high and put her on medication, but wouldn't give her the numbers.
Its frustrating to me how many folks blindly trust their doctors and how getting a second opinion seems to be so frowned upon.4 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »I vote for hypothyroid. The ultimate fad disease. Just about everyone here claims they have it, and blame their weight problem on it.
When a thyroid panel is done and all the levels are abnormal, either high or low, and you need to be put on meds to normalize it, then it is a disease, not a fad. People don't claim to have it, clinical test prove it. What about Hashimoto? Is it a autoimmune disease also a fad? Do you also consider diabetes T2 a fad disease ?
i'll say this - I had all the thyroid panels done multiple times and they were always "normal" - until the doctor discovered a tumor (which by the way you could see physically feel on my thyroid) - when I had my thyroidectomy - the surgeon asked me if I knew that I had Hashimoto's - I had all the symptoms over the years but was never actually diagnosed because of blood work being normal
I had a similar problem. I was showing signs of hypothyroidism in my teens, but my doctor at the time kept insisting my levels were normal. It wasn't until as an adult I began researching it that I found that what was considered "normal" had changed.
I also had 3 large goiters that were found by accident while having a neck ultrasound for something else. I had been seeing a endocrynologist for a couple of years by this point for PCOS, but was floored when the technician asked if I knew I had goiters. After my uncle was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, my doctor pushed to have my thyroid removed as the goiters were getting larger, and even the surgeon said she couldn't feel them and wouldn't have believe they were there without the ultrasound. Turns out they were cancerous.
I'm pushing my sister now to see an endocrynologist. She's having health issues that are systematic of thyroid problems, and I'm concerned, especially with the family history of thyroid cancer, but her doctor did bloodwork and just told her "it was normal". Wouldn't even give her the numbers. Just like this doctor told her her cholesterol was high and put her on medication, but wouldn't give her the numbers.
Its frustrating to me how many folks blindly trust their doctors and how getting a second opinion seems to be so frowned upon.
unfortunately that has largely been my experience - when you find a doctor that listens to you, they are worth their weight in gold. The ThyCa webforum typically has good recommendations for endocrinologists - depending on insurance sometimes you can see one without a referral (thank has saved me more than once when I've had a PCM not want to give me a referral). My mom is similar - she has all the symptoms of thyroid issues (as well as both me and my sisters being on meds) but her bloodwork is normal2 -
Like I said much earlier on in this thread. Many, many women are being failed by the medical profession.
Hashimoto's thyroiditis presents with hypothyroid symptoms and what are generally accepted as "normal numbers" its only when the person is tested for antibodies that the truth dawns
but this is still not an adequate answer because the treatment should be to find the cause of the antibodies and reduce them not simply bolster the t4 iodine intake expecting conversion to simply happen.
I feel for anyone who has been symptomatic for years and has been told its all in your head, or your body is not complying with my literature. Which person is wrong the patient with symptoms her family can see her experiencing or the doctor who is waiting for her thyroid to be totally destroyed so she fits the box which will provide some sort of treatment!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd been going to the doctor for a life time, been symptomatic since childhood. When I did eventually achieve a diagnosis there was not treatment for me because they made me more ill than I was already. Now after two years of alternative treatment I have a life worth living and more importantly I have a better quality of life than I did when I was under 40.
Best wish to anyone who has thyroid related problems, never give up, there should be beneficial help if you read all you can or kiss enough frogs.
BTW, I am very angry how trivial many think thyroid issues are, and for anyone who has similar experiences to my own because when; the issues start to cascade they all too soon can culminate in major life threatening problems.6 -
There seems to be multiple types of "Woo" being discussed:
1> Complete junk science: Blood type diets, Alkaline diets
2> Has some legitimate ideas, but can be cultish: Paleo
3> Health food fad du jour: Protein, green tea, pomegranate7 -
bmeadows380
I'm pushing my sister now to see an endocrynologist. She's having health issues that are systematic of thyroid problems, and I'm concerned, especially with the family history of thyroid cancer, but her doctor did bloodwork and just told her "it was normal". Wouldn't even give her the numbers. Just like this doctor told her her cholesterol was high and put her on medication, but wouldn't give her the numbers.
I'm really sorry you had to go through this, and you're so right to be pushing your sister. If you're in the US you have a right to a copy of your medical records, including lab results, maybe she can request those and go for a second opinion (yes, that's hard, especially if you're planning to continue seeing the original doctor, but sometimes it's necessary.)
Privacy Rule:
The Privacy Rule gives you, with few exceptions, the right to inspect, review, and receive a copy of your medical records and billing records that are held by health plans and health care providers covered by the Privacy Rule.
Patients have a right to participate in their own medical care, and sometimes advocating for ones' self is the only way to get appropriate treatment.
Best of luck to both of you.
4 -
In this past year I've been involuntarily included in several woo MLM products.
1. Thrive supplements
2. Weight loss coffee
3. Hydraslim
4. Herbalife
Mostly because my SIL keeps trying them to lose weight and sell them to supplement the cost.2
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions