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Can you both desire to lose weight and be body positive?
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eliciaobrien1 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »eliciaobrien1 wrote: »Oh stop kidding yourselves. Swimming cuts your weight significantly so it's literally less taxing on the body.
Being overweight is not in and of itself unhealthy. It can raise your risk of disease, but regular activity can decrease it.
No. Having more fat on your body raises your risk of disease, yes, which makes it unhealthy. Regular activity, unless you're burning fat, does not decrease it. Regular activity with no change in how much fat is on your body does not change how much fat is on your body. So it wouldn't change your risk of diseases.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/fat-but-fit-myth-heart-disease-study/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/obesity-health-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fat-but-fit-myth-diet-fitness-obesity-complications-inclusive-a7741126.html (this one might give you "fat but fit" but definitely not fat and healthy)
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/fat-but-fit-still-at-higher-risk-of-heart-disease/
All 3 of those reference the same study... which didn't actually review anything about "fat but fit"
They literally all reviewed "fat but fit". Why would you need to do more than one study if one study proves "fat but fit" wrong?
The thing with science is that once it's proved with evidence you don't really need to look at it again.
what????
and he said the study the 3 articles reference didn't touch on fat but fit...
no woooo science...2 -
Woooo science!0
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Why on earth wouldn't you be? You can be positive and positively decide it's time for a change. Wanting to lose weight doesn't equate with hating yourself. I felt just fine about my body when I was 310lbs, I just decided there needed to be less of it.1
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Why not be whole self positive because you are making changes for all parts of you not just your body.0
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eliciaobrien1 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »eliciaobrien1 wrote: »Oh stop kidding yourselves. Swimming cuts your weight significantly so it's literally less taxing on the body.
Being overweight is not in and of itself unhealthy. It can raise your risk of disease, but regular activity can decrease it.
No. Having more fat on your body raises your risk of disease, yes, which makes it unhealthy. Regular activity, unless you're burning fat, does not decrease it. Regular activity with no change in how much fat is on your body does not change how much fat is on your body. So it wouldn't change your risk of diseases.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/fat-but-fit-myth-heart-disease-study/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/obesity-health-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fat-but-fit-myth-diet-fitness-obesity-complications-inclusive-a7741126.html (this one might give you "fat but fit" but definitely not fat and healthy)
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/fat-but-fit-still-at-higher-risk-of-heart-disease/
All 3 of those reference the same study... which didn't actually review anything about "fat but fit"
They literally all reviewed "fat but fit". Why would you need to do more than one study if one study proves "fat but fit" wrong?
The thing with science is that once it's proved with evidence you don't really need to look at it again.
what????
and he said the study the 3 articles reference didn't touch on fat but fit...
no woooo science...
can you find me any studies saying the contrary? Honestly. I've given you more evidence then you could ever give me and some how I'm wrong? okay.1 -
clicketykeys wrote: »I think a big part of body positivity is not only learning to love your own body, but supporting others in their decisions about what's best for their bodies, even when their goals are different from yours. I would suggest being careful about what you're saying when you're discussing what your goals are and how you want to "better" yourself. It's easy for that to come across as you saying that your goals are better in a GENERAL sense, even if that's not what you mean.
I put it in quotes for that very reason because what I feel is better for myself may not be better for anyone or everyone else. Losing weight will never make you better than anyone else. I love the plus sized community (fashion in particular) and would never want to ostracize anyone in it.0 -
I think it is possible to be both. I am body positive but not body satisfied. I'm proud of where I am and the effort I've put in, I don't try and hide away and I'm confident. But I still see room for improving, getting stronger and more toned. I know that no matter what I weight or what clothes size I am or how toned I am, I'll probably never be 100% satisfied, there'll always be that one little thing so I learn to accept that as much as I can, focus of the positives and the things I can realistically improve2
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The thing with healthy skepticism is that a single study is just crying for an 'orealy' check. That's why scientists will replicate studies just to see if they get the same result. It's this natural skepticism that debunked the autism-vaccine connection. The results could not be replicated, and the originator of the study discredited.The thing with science is that once it's proved with evidence you don't really need to look at it again.5 -
Swimming can be extremely hard work and great exercise. It's an easier exercise to do (because less hard on the body) than something like running, but a really intense swimming workout is every bit as hard as a really intense running workout. As someone who has done tri training and considers swimming her worst sport (and has participated in drills with much better swimmers), darn right a swimming workout where I push myself is hard work. And consistently swimming an hour a day (i.e., not "swimming" but really playing around in the pool most of the time) is good exercise. If you can't swim that hard yet it might not burn so many calories as running, but it's still good exercise.
That aside, to the fat but fit study -- and to make my own view clear, I think that fat is a risk factor, but so is inactivity. Someone who is fat can improve their risks by getting active (and will probably lose some weight anyway if they also control calories). And sometimes getting active can help someone get their head into weight loss or get over the self-hatred that is holding them back from weight loss in a way that just dieting may not (especially for someone with a yoyoing history or history of failed diets).eliciaobrien1 wrote: »
So I'm pretty sure this study was discussed in multiple threads, but here's the actual study:
https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/doi/10.1093/eurheartj/ehx448/4081012
Results:
"The metabolically healthy obese had worse metabolic parameters (higher lipid levels, blood pressure, HbA1c, C-reactive protein), had higher red meat intake, were less likely to be current smokers, more likely to be inactive and less educated than metabolically healthy normal weight participants (all P < 0.0001, Table 1)."
"Compared to the normal weight participants without MetS [metabolic syndrome], all other metabolically-defined body size phenotypes were at significantly higher risk of CHD (Figure 3) in a fully adjusted model (Model
."
"Metabolically healthy obese individuals were at higher risk of CHD (HR = 1.28 [95% CI 1.03, 1.58], P = 0.02) but this was considerably lower than the risk in metabolically unhealthy groups. MetS was strongly positively associated with CHD risk, regardless of adiposity, with a HR of 2.15 (95% CI 1.79, 2.57: P < 0.0001) for metabolically unhealthy normal weight participants with MetS and a HR of 2.54 (95% CI 2.21, 2.92: P < 0.0001) in their obese counterparts."
To put that in plain English, compared to non-obese, metabolically healthy people, metabolically-healthy obese people had an increased risk of heart disease of 1.28. That is less than the increased-risk that normal-weight but metabolically unhealthy people had (2.15), and of course less than the increased-risk that obese and metabolically-unhealthy people had (2.54).
This suggests to me that it's valuable to lose weight, of course, but also valuable to do other things that affect the likelihood of developing metabolic syndrome, which include exercise, and that a sedentary non obese person could, in fact, be less fit than an active fat person. (Genetics play a role too.)
Also, risk is not actuality. Just as smoking is unhealthy but being a smoker does not mean you are currently unhealthy, being fat is unhealthy, but a particular fat person may not currently be unhealthy (and could be lucky enough to never develop the diseases that obesity increases risk factors for.
Again, I am not denying that it is healthier to lose weight or that obesity increases risk factors. I just think saying that obesity matters and activity does not is also wrong.7 -
eliciaobrien1 wrote: »Oh stop kidding yourselves. Swimming cuts your weight significantly so it's literally less taxing on the body.
Being overweight is not in and of itself unhealthy. It can raise your risk of disease, but regular activity can decrease it.
No. Having more fat on your body raises your risk of disease, yes, which makes it unhealthy. Regular activity, unless you're burning fat, does not decrease it. Regular activity with no change in how much fat is on your body does not change how much fat is on your body. So it wouldn't change your risk of diseases.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/fat-but-fit-myth-heart-disease-study/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/obesity-health-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fat-but-fit-myth-diet-fitness-obesity-complications-inclusive-a7741126.html (this one might give you "fat but fit" but definitely not fat and healthy)
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/fat-but-fit-still-at-higher-risk-of-heart-disease/
this is a quote from the last link above:Most of the coverage repeated the line that it is not possible to be overweight and healthy, which is not what the study found.
The study results showed obese people were at an increased risk of certain diseases, but that doesn't mean they will all get these diseases.
It would seem you are going with the media spin, rather than the actual study results.6 -
Swimming was highly recommended by my weight management team as it is much easier on the joints. The obese often avoid exercise because of pain in the back, the joints, and the genuine fear of injury. The pool takes the strain off and allows for greater range of movement.
One can put in enough effort in the pool to raise the cardio. So the muscles ARE working.2 -
I guess it depends what you mean by "body positive". When I motivated myself to lose weight it was because I decided I would benefit both in terms of appearance and in terms of health to be lower weight. I had gotten an unslightly paunch and I was more lethargic than I would like.
In those terms I was negative towards my appearance but it was that negativity that inspired me to change what I didn't like. I never hated myself or disliked myself. I've never tied my appearance at any given point in time to "me" as an individual if that makes sense.
So yeah I wasn't "body positive" in that I thought, yeeeash, I need to do something about this (pinching several inches). But it didn't make me feel particularly bad or anything. So not sure if that counts or what.
I get confused when people act like their bodies ARE them and to be negative towards your physical appearance at a given moment is to be "mean" to yourself or something.
If you want to change your appearance then you, by definition, don't like your current appeareance. There is nothing wrong with that. If you couple that with positive affirmations about how happy you are with your current body then you are just bullsh*tting yourself and I'm not sure really what that accomplishes.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I get confused when people act like their bodies ARE them and to be negative towards your physical appearance at a given moment is to be "mean" to yourself or something.
If you want to change your appearance then you, by definition, don't like your current appeareance. There is nothing wrong with that. If you couple that with positive affirmations about how happy you are with your current body then you are just bullsh*tting yourself and I'm not sure really what that accomplishes.
This is quite true. Why must we dislike ourselves to want to lose weight but not to cut or dye our hair, or put on makeup or jewelry?6 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »eliciaobrien1 wrote: »Oh stop kidding yourselves. Swimming cuts your weight significantly so it's literally less taxing on the body.
Being overweight is not in and of itself unhealthy. It can raise your risk of disease, but regular activity can decrease it.
No. Having more fat on your body raises your risk of disease, yes, which makes it unhealthy. Regular activity, unless you're burning fat, does not decrease it. Regular activity with no change in how much fat is on your body does not change how much fat is on your body. So it wouldn't change your risk of diseases.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/fat-but-fit-myth-heart-disease-study/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/obesity-health-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fat-but-fit-myth-diet-fitness-obesity-complications-inclusive-a7741126.html (this one might give you "fat but fit" but definitely not fat and healthy)
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/fat-but-fit-still-at-higher-risk-of-heart-disease/
this is a quote from the last link above:Most of the coverage repeated the line that it is not possible to be overweight and healthy, which is not what the study found.
The study results showed obese people were at an increased risk of certain diseases, but that doesn't mean they will all get these diseases.
It would seem you are going with the media spin, rather than the actual study results.
That just points to the fact that "healthy" is a vague term (just like "body positivity" and "fat acceptance.") Where the precise line between "healthy" and "unhealthy" is isn't always clear.
Instead of categorizing things (and activities and people) as "healthy" or "unhealthy" we should be looking at "more healthy" vs. "less healthy." An overweight person may already have a reasonable level of health, but they could certainly become more healthy by losing weight. A non-overweight person may also already have a reasonable level of health, but they could also become more healthy by exercising more and increasing their stamina.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I get confused when people act like their bodies ARE them and to be negative towards your physical appearance at a given moment is to be "mean" to yourself or something.
If you want to change your appearance then you, by definition, don't like your current appeareance. There is nothing wrong with that. If you couple that with positive affirmations about how happy you are with your current body then you are just bullsh*tting yourself and I'm not sure really what that accomplishes.
This is quite true. Why must we dislike ourselves to want to lose weight but not to cut or dye our hair, or put on makeup or jewelry?
That is an excellent analogy. I would say with full sincerity my attitude towards weight loss is pretty much the same as towards a hair cut. I look at my hair and think, eh that is getting pretty long and unmanageable...I should get a hair cut. I look at my body and think, eh I'm getting pretty fat...I should lose some weight. I "feel" about the same in both instances, I recognize losing weight is a bigger endevour than getting your hair cut so one takes more motivation to get it done than the other but in both cases I have a form of a negative body image (something needs to change) and then I take steps to resolve that. I don't "hate" myself in either situation.7 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »IIf you want to change your appearance then you, by definition, don't like your current appeareance.
Ehhh. There are other reasons. Variety. Other peoples influence.0 -
clicketykeys wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »IIf you want to change your appearance then you, by definition, don't like your current appeareance.
Ehhh. There are other reasons. Variety. Other peoples influence.
Those are just a list of reasons why one might not like their current appearance. If someone is going to undertake the effort to change their appearance it is because they now prefer an appearance that is not their current one. You can get semantic about it but really that is just another way of saying that someone doesn't like their appearance. Again though, that isn't a bad thing nor does it mean that someone dislikes themselves. In my opinion a person and their appearance are not the same thing. One can dislike ones own appearance without saying anything about whether or not one dislikes themselves. I dislike it when my hair gets too long, that doesn't mean in that moment I think less of myself as a person. If I want to change my hairstyle for the sake of variety, it means I have gotten bored of what I currently look like. Again, doesn't mean I somehow dislike myself....but it does mean I like my current appearance less than a desired appearance.
I think there are people who tie their personal self-worth to their appearance and I think those people likely project onto others that if those other people don't like their appearance they must have self-esteem issues. I'd argue that the ones who associate their self-worth with their appearance are the ones with self-esteem issues that need to be addressed...even if they are currently happy with their appearance at the moment.3 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I get confused when people act like their bodies ARE them and to be negative towards your physical appearance at a given moment is to be "mean" to yourself or something.
I said above that I am my body, but my point (as I said) is that wanting to change my body, make it healthier or even more aesthetically pleasing or stronger isn't, IMO, contrary to being body positive. The result of getting active again and taking better care of myself was feeling better about my body in some ways -- I appreciated that my body could do all the amazing things that are inherent to humanity (that it worked), as well as that I could walk and run and get stronger and better with work and so on, and I focused more on what I could do, not just how I looked. I stopped looking at myself just focusing on the aesthetics and the lacks (the "what's wrong with me gaze of self-hatred that I'd had when perfectly thin at other times) and was able to see eh, I'd like to improve that, or fat there that needs to go without feeling hatred or emotional about it.
I don't think positivity means not seeing anything wrong or that one would want to improve, but the whole "ugh, disgusting" thing also would not work for me.1 -
cbohling1987 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »eliciaobrien1 wrote: »Oh stop kidding yourselves. Swimming cuts your weight significantly so it's literally less taxing on the body.
Being overweight is not in and of itself unhealthy. It can raise your risk of disease, but regular activity can decrease it.
No. Having more fat on your body raises your risk of disease, yes, which makes it unhealthy. Regular activity, unless you're burning fat, does not decrease it. Regular activity with no change in how much fat is on your body does not change how much fat is on your body. So it wouldn't change your risk of diseases.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/health/fat-but-fit-myth-heart-disease-study/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/obesity-health-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fat-but-fit-myth-diet-fitness-obesity-complications-inclusive-a7741126.html (this one might give you "fat but fit" but definitely not fat and healthy)
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/fat-but-fit-still-at-higher-risk-of-heart-disease/
this is a quote from the last link above:Most of the coverage repeated the line that it is not possible to be overweight and healthy, which is not what the study found.
The study results showed obese people were at an increased risk of certain diseases, but that doesn't mean they will all get these diseases.
It would seem you are going with the media spin, rather than the actual study results.
That just points to the fact that "healthy" is a vague term (just like "body positivity" and "fat acceptance.") Where the precise line between "healthy" and "unhealthy" is isn't always clear.
Instead of categorizing things (and activities and people) as "healthy" or "unhealthy" we should be looking at "more healthy" vs. "less healthy." An overweight person may already have a reasonable level of health, but they could certainly become more healthy by losing weight. A non-overweight person may also already have a reasonable level of health, but they could also become more healthy by exercising more and increasing their stamina.
But similarly if one is fat and sedentary and wants to get healthier one could focus on getting more fit through exercise vs. dieting. I don't think it's going to prohibit later focusing on weight loss and it's a positive change.1
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