To Keto or not to Keto

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  • freakyfantasy
    freakyfantasy Posts: 6 Member
    PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
    johnslater461 wrote: »
    PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    akinastrong wrote: »
    I been on keto for 5 months now and I love it. prior to doing keto I could not stay away from carbs and sweets. a busy mom of two a 3 year old and a one year old keto was the best health choice I have ever made!!! I stick to 80%fat, 15% protein and 5% carb. the whole "caloric deficit " is a bunch of bull to me and I don't believe it at all. there is know way a person can prove how much calories you are burning through out the day. not one persons metabolic rate is the same and everyone does something different everyday so you cant put a straight number on it. and far as the studies read above the high carb and low carb yes its not different because "carbs is carbs" and what a lot of people are missing is keto is just not a low carb diet they key is a HIGH FAT diet. and your goal is to get into ketosis, that's where you start burning fat. Research high fat diet vs. low low carb diet and you will see the difference. I have lost 25lbs since starting keto and it was effortless I have also kicked the cravings for sweets and carbs. I have a ton more energy to play with my kids, and I don't wake up feeling like a zombie from having a rough night with my baby. Not to mention 23lbs of that was straight fat loss! We had a 12 week biggest loser at work majority were doing the low calories (eating like a bird) and doing no fat low carb, and protein diet. and i was doing keto with my butter, fatty stake, egg etc. everyone thought I was crazy. But the number and data don't lie! I won the fat loss and weight loss category. the others did lose weight but also lost a lot of muscle. I have 5 clients right now all only a month in and they all lost 5-13 lbs and 1-3.5 inches off their waist. So i am totally a keto advocate. seeing results with my clients and with my self also feeling the difference in my body and having clarity on keto compared to being on a non keto diet. Its very sustainable for me i don't need to worry about calories i just listen to my body i never did calorie restrict my self neither does my clients and we care getting amazing results!. I just eat when i'm hungry stop when im full. No starving trying to eat like a bird, being moody because you have to eat salads all day. just do your research and give it ago. and sorry so long lol really am passionate about it! =)

    Obviously.

    It's just too bad that all of that is incorrect and goes completely against physiology and the laws of energy balance. Magic doesn't exist, you have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. That's been scientifically proven over and over again. There is no "metabolic advantage" to a ketogenic diet, calories are calories.

    Let's start here with some science:

    https://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/

    https://completehumanperformance.com/2013/07/23/why-calories-count/

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316911061_A_Calorie_is_Still_a_Calorie_According_to_Rigorous_New_Evidence

    http://georgiefear.com/2016/12/15/the-truth-about-ketogenic-dieting/

    http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/

    http://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-analysis-impact-of-carbohydrate-vs-fat-calories-on-energy-expenditure-and-body-fatness/

    So much B.S. here. PLEASE realize this guy is 100% wrong and I am 100% proof of it. Have been doing intermittent fasting and keto for 77 days as of today and have lost 47 lbs so far. Have not been in a caloric deficit at all. In fact a lot of days I am in a caloric surplus. Do some research on combining intermittent fasting with keto.

    And as I've said on other threads. If this guy or anyone on this sight want to put some money where their mouth is I will put up $1000 to anyone here to prove what I've lost, how I've lost it, and in how long I've lost it. 100% B.S. that you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Get your body into a FULL time keto adapted state and you will lose weight at an extrodinary rate. And if you want to gain muscle at the same time do that too by working out and making sure you eat at least between .4 to 1 gram of protein a day. I have been doing 5 to 10% carbs, 20 to 25% protein and around 70% good fats per day. Even with my exercise I still am not in a caloric deficit so don't believe everything you read here on this forum cause there is SO MUCH crap I am reading all over the place here. Best thing to do is try it and see what the truth is and if you want any guidance, advice, or info send me a message.

    The power of combining intermittent fasting with keto is unbelievable powerful with fat loss, health, energy, muscle gain etc.. Just do a search online and read of all the people who report the incredible amazing results in their lives from it.

    I do full body composition imaging scans to track my fat % loss and lean muscle mass gains. There is no better way to know for sure what's going on with your fat loss and muscle gains.

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    Great post and it really doesn't matter one bit what people who have zero experience doing what I and a ton of other people are doing say about it all. None of these people here who claim to know what they are talking about do long hour intermittent fasting/keto adapted living. They talk about it like they know but it is very very obvious they do not and only do so by reading other peoples posts, para phrase them, or quoting and/or linking some out dated blanket information that doesn't pertain at all to what I am talking about.

    And anyone here who wants to learn more about intermittent fasting combined with keto can very very easily do some research on their own to find tons of results reflecting the same info I have been talking about. And I welcome and PM's as well. If I can help I'd be glad to. I have no ulterior motive. I am not selling anything lol. I could care less who does what with their weight loss. What I do care about is people knowing the truth of what has happened to me and others I know and mentor from just in case it can help a single person if they chose to go that route. And I care a great deal about people talking and shooting from the hip about something they have not done and no absolutely nothing about. Keto is Keto a lot of info about that. Intermittent fasting combined with Keto is a different thing all together.

    What does matter is that at least some people that are here reading have other options to do with their body's what they want and to try for themselves. There has not been very many inventions, new creations, and technology expansion without people trying new things and often times thinking out of the box. It is the narrow minded narcissistic type of people who will not gain new knowledge, insight, new ideas or new ways of doing things. It is often unfortunately the follower mentality that leaves people from opening their minds as well. Going with the status quo so to speak.
    Research and learn from trying. There is no other way on earth to get better, real true facts for your own body. You can read till your eyes fall out but the knowledge you gain will be a drop of water in the ocean compared to doing it yourself and learning from it.


    It seems to me you're restricting calories and not even know it. Going keto works great for those who are easily satiated by fat. Combining that with an eating window of 8 hours results naturally in less calorie intake. You eat highly satiating foods for you, and you do that only within a 6 to 8-hour window ==> lowered calorie intake, unless you're popping 500 g of almonds, 3 avocados and 2 big steaks with a dozen boiled eggs, all within those 8 hours. A bit of an exageration, but that's what it is - it's naturally eating less calories than normal due to the foods and the time restrictions imposed.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
    VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!

    AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!

    No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.

    That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.

    People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often. ;)

    No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.

    I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.

    What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.

    When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.

    Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
    http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

    When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.

    But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.

    Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.

    It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).

    ETA: to clean up my English.

    Awesome points. I get it that a calorie that I eat is not functionally a calorie if my body for any reason does not metabolize it.

    I see the rather high calorie coconut flakes that I am eating now contain 4 gram of carbs and 4 grams of dietary fiber per 110 calorie serving and each 90 calories of chocolate that I am eating as I type contains 4 grams of carbs and 3 grams of dietary.

    Keto is not magically but it can seem that way sometimes when we do not understand how it can lead to weight loss and maintaining that weight loss.

    As you know I gave up trying to lose weight but just manage my pain and to improve my measurable health markers at the age of 63 by diet changes only.

    I still do not think Keto will work out for the masses if weight loss it the main objective of this WOE because there are many more conventional WOE's that will lead to weight loss.

    In my case keto cutting out my binging on high carb/fat foods I think is key to Keto working in my personal case. The automatic recomping feature is helpful in my case. I never knew I could cut body fat without losing weight.
  • xbowhunter
    xbowhunter Posts: 1,309 Member
    All good observations. just like a lot of things in life there is more than one way to loose weight. lol

    My weight loss occurred from a balanced diet with emphasis on the CICO theory... :)
  • hilaryhill
    hilaryhill Posts: 156 Member
    I did keto for about 4 months last year. I did lose a lot of weight pretty quickly, but I found it hard to sustain long term. I just can't not have pizza or cake ever again, lol. Be warned that if you ever go off of keto you'll gain all the weight back in, like, a week. It's crazy. IMO, counting calories and maybe separating the fuels (ala Trim Healthy Mama) is the better way to go. But then I just can't do extreme diets, I love food too much.
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