To Keto or not to Keto
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.
Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.
It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).
ETA: to clean up my English.
Awesome points. I get it that a calorie that I eat is not functionally a calorie if my body for any reason does not metabolize it.
I see the rather high calorie coconut flakes that I am eating now contain 4 gram of carbs and 4 grams of dietary fiber per 110 calorie serving and each 90 calories of chocolate that I am eating as I type contains 4 grams of carbs and 3 grams of dietary.
Keto is not magically but it can seem that way sometimes when we do not understand how it can lead to weight loss and maintaining that weight loss.
As you know I gave up trying to lose weight but just manage my pain and to improve my measurable health markers at the age of 63 by diet changes only.
I still do not think Keto will work out for the masses if weight loss it the main objective of this WOE because there are many more conventional WOE's that will lead to weight loss.
In my case keto cutting out my binging on high carb/fat foods I think is key to Keto working in my personal case. The automatic recomping feature is helpful in my case. I never knew I could cut body fat without losing weight.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.
Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.
It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).
ETA: to clean up my English.
Awesome points. I get it that a calorie that I eat is not functionally a calorie if my body for any reason does not metabolize it.
I see the rather high calorie coconut flakes that I am eating now contain 4 gram of carbs and 4 grams of dietary fiber per 110 calorie serving and each 90 calories of chocolate that I am eating as I type contains 4 grams of carbs and 3 grams of dietary.
Keto is not magically but it can seem that way sometimes when we do not understand how it can lead to weight loss and maintaining that weight loss.
As you know I gave up trying to lose weight but just manage my pain and to improve my measurable health markers at the age of 63 by diet changes only.
I still do not think Keto will work out for the masses if weight loss it the main objective of this WOE because there are many more conventional WOE's that will lead to weight loss.
In my case keto cutting out my binging on high carb/fat foods I think is key to Keto working in my personal case. The automatic recomping feature is helpful in my case. I never knew I could cut body fat without losing weight.
Gale, you are largely mistaken if you believe we don't know how keto can lead to fat loss. It leads to fat loss if it can drive a deficit, which can happen when you cut out an entire macronutrient. It's no different than becoming vegan all of a sudden.
Also, the point is, nut members are similar to fiber.. it's not really metabolized. And at some point, as more studies confirm that, they will make updates to the nutrition labels.9 -
Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!18
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flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You clearly do not really understand insulin and it's role in the body. It is not "the fat storage hormone" There is no "fat storage hormone". Fat is stored from excess energy intake.
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Staggered at the sheer level of woo peddled in this thread. My guess it that a lot of the nonsense has come from the keto drink/pill MLM people.
Insulin is not a fat storage hormone. Our bodies store fat IF we eat too much. When we balance CICO it doesn't give the body excess calories to convert to and store as fat. HTH.
https://niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance9 -
flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.7 -
General observation:
Those who post wild claims and tell those listening to "do your research" are confusing whose responsibility it is to back up their claims......with research.8 -
I've done low carb many many times and the one time I counted calories along with it (no modifying just ate what I always ate on low carb) I was shocked to see I was eating a low calorie diet. The first week on low carb for me is woohoo I lost a lot of weight- the second week pretty good loss and after that it's the same as every other plan. I find this explanation in the article below to be helpful.
I eat less on low carb because when you eat foods higher in fat you're satiated and therefore eat less.
In addition to low carb making me feel crap, anybody telling me I can't have something is sure to fail from the get go. Everything in moderation said no diet book ever that's why there are so many of them out there.
https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/low-carb-diet/5 -
All good observations. just like a lot of things in life there is more than one way to loose weight. lol
My weight loss occurred from a balanced diet with emphasis on the CICO theory...
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flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.
The information on ASP as the main driver of fat accumulation has not been proven. At least not by 2011. But I will keep digging for more information on that one. This was just one of the things I quickly dug up.
http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/
Glucose dependent Insulitropic peptide or (GIP) This stimulates insulin production independent of blood glucose levels and is referred to at an incretin. This brings it back around to the insulin response.
https://idmprogram.com/incretin-effect/
I guess that brings us to the hormone sensitive lipase: HSL is activated when the body needs to mobilize energy stores, and so responds positively to catecholamines, ACTH. It is inhibited by insulin.
That one was the hardest to dig up info on. I can and probably will go on digging up more information, because I like that sort of thing. I never like half a story.7 -
I did keto for about 4 months last year. I did lose a lot of weight pretty quickly, but I found it hard to sustain long term. I just can't not have pizza or cake ever again, lol. Be warned that if you ever go off of keto you'll gain all the weight back in, like, a week. It's crazy. IMO, counting calories and maybe separating the fuels (ala Trim Healthy Mama) is the better way to go. But then I just can't do extreme diets, I love food too much.0
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flitabout38 wrote: »flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.
The information on ASP as the main driver of fat accumulation has not been proven. At least not by 2011. But I will keep digging for more information on that one. This was just one of the things I quickly dug up.
http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/
Glucose dependent Insulitropic peptide or (GIP) This stimulates insulin production independent of blood glucose levels and is referred to at an incretin. This brings it back around to the insulin response.
https://idmprogram.com/incretin-effect/
I guess that brings us to the hormone sensitive lipase: HSL is activated when the body needs to mobilize energy stores, and so responds positively to catecholamines, ACTH. It is inhibited by insulin.
That one was the hardest to dig up info on. I can and probably will go on digging up more information, because I like that sort of thing. I never like half a story.
none of those links are scientific peer reviewed studies though. the first one is to sell a product and the second is by a nephrologist who has been debunked with his woo on insulin9 -
Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!7
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When u first start keto dont track macros. Just read the label keep ur carbs under 20 net carbs eat when ur hungry dont worry abput how much your eating at first because let me tell u the first month i was always hungry i mean always. Not too much veggies lots of fats and protein.7
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My philosophy is that is has to WORK LONG TERM. If you don't think you can do a keto-type diet forever, then don't do it now. It has to be something you can stick to. Think of what your maintenance plan is now, not when you've lost the weight, because if you have no plan then, it is really easy for the weight to come back. I've done keto in the past and re-gained all of that weight. I'm now keeping off 35lbs with a balanced diet focused on keeping my calories at a certain level! CICO baby!5
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flitabout38 wrote: »Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!
its not that I dont like the sources its because they are not legit. this one says that there was really no change in weight or fat https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903931/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29541907
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18957499
the other links show that diet and weight loss alone help with weight and fat loss. as for lipids in the blood when you lose weight they will go up for a short time and go back down over time if the person does not have a genetic defect which makes their lipids high.. whether you have abdominal fat or not. you cant spot reduce fat if thats what you are getting at with the abdominal obesity. not to mention most of these studies are done on rats and are inconclusive at best in most studies.
@psuLemon can you post that link you had that shows that weight and fat loss in keto diets compared to low fat diets(I think it was) is basically the same8 -
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.
That is a bit of an overly simplistic explanation of insulin but I believe we're talking about insulin resistance at non diabetic levels and it's relationship to fat storage. See Wilcox, G: Insulin and Insulin Resistance, Clin Biochem Rev 2005 May. Particularly the section on Insulin Secretion in Response to Stimuli.
CICO works fine for overweight persons in general. Nutrient partitioning and controlling insulin response really begin to show their effects on competitive athletes and very fit individuals. I personally don't adhere to a ketogenic diet but I don't consume wheat, unless it's heirloom, or refined sugars. That tends to keep my carb intake in the 75 to 150 gram per day levels. If i go above that for any extended amount of time it gets difficult to keep my BF% in the 10% range. So if we're measuring BF and not weight than the idea that low carb only drops water weight is untrue. My run, swim, and bicycle times in training also seem to suffer. And that's with no change in total caloric intake. So CICO also doesn't hold true as the only basis of weight gain, loss, or maintenance. I realize that that's anecdotal, but it seems to hold true with those I train and compete with.
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flitabout38 wrote: »Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!
If you want, youtube Layne Norton, PhD (BioLayne) has videos on metabolism and weight loss. He goes through the basics of fat and protein metabolism. Fats store as fat more often than carbs. De Novo Lipogenesis studies have already proven that. In fact, carbs only store at roughly 10% or less of the time. Kevin Hall, PhD (one of the head researchers at the NIH has conducted multiple isocaloric studies, include a metabolic ward study, where protein and calories were equal and saw no difference in weight loss between a ketogenic group and a high carb/high sugar group. Similar long term studies by Arizona University, and others demonstrated the same thing.
If low insulin was required to maintain a healthy lifestyle, than all the longest living and healthiest nations in the world wouldn't all be 70 to 80% carbs. The fact is, the only people who are pushing insulin theory are those who are no educated in the field (Taubes, Moore, Berg, Fung). Ironically, one of Kevin Halls studies was funded by NuSI (owned by Taubes) which was a metabolic ward study that reinforced that when calories and protein are matched, there is no difference outside of personal adherence. Ironically, also in those studies, they found basal insulin levels dropped in both groups.
Where keto and IF can be helpful is with compliance and those with insulin resistance and diabetes.6 -
joeydahatt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.
That is a bit of an overly simplistic explanation of insulin but I believe we're talking about insulin resistance at non diabetic levels and it's relationship to fat storage. See Wilcox, G: Insulin and Insulin Resistance, Clin Biochem Rev 2005 May. Particularly the section on Insulin Secretion in Response to Stimuli.
CICO works fine for overweight persons in general. Nutrient partitioning and controlling insulin response really begin to show their effects on competitive athletes and very fit individuals. I personally don't adhere to a ketogenic diet but I don't consume wheat, unless it's heirloom, or refined sugars. That tends to keep my carb intake in the 75 to 150 gram per day levels. If i go above that for any extended amount of time it gets difficult to keep my BF% in the 10% range. So if we're measuring BF and not weight than the idea that low carb only drops water weight is untrue. My run, swim, and bicycle times in training also seem to suffer. And that's with no change in total caloric intake. So CICO also doesn't hold true as the only basis of weight gain, loss, or maintenance. I realize that that's anecdotal, but it seems to hold true with those I train and compete with.
CICO is universally true; its foundationally a simplification of energy balance. Where it becomes an issue is that people believe that their TDEE is always the same on all diets. But what really happens, is that certain diets can cause an increase in NEAT, TEA or TEF (high protein), which may increase EE. It's no different than how I have always responded better eating 2300 to 2500 calories, than I even did on a 1800 calorie diet. If I low carb, and I have tried, I always fail. I am always starving and lethargic. For me, since I am volume eater, I have always performed based with 150 to 170g of protein with 250 to 350g of carbs.5
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