To Keto or not to Keto
Replies
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This thread delivers.8
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johnslater461 wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »I been on keto for 5 months now and I love it. prior to doing keto I could not stay away from carbs and sweets. a busy mom of two a 3 year old and a one year old keto was the best health choice I have ever made!!! I stick to 80%fat, 15% protein and 5% carb. the whole "caloric deficit " is a bunch of bull to me and I don't believe it at all. there is know way a person can prove how much calories you are burning through out the day. not one persons metabolic rate is the same and everyone does something different everyday so you cant put a straight number on it. and far as the studies read above the high carb and low carb yes its not different because "carbs is carbs" and what a lot of people are missing is keto is just not a low carb diet they key is a HIGH FAT diet. and your goal is to get into ketosis, that's where you start burning fat. Research high fat diet vs. low low carb diet and you will see the difference. I have lost 25lbs since starting keto and it was effortless I have also kicked the cravings for sweets and carbs. I have a ton more energy to play with my kids, and I don't wake up feeling like a zombie from having a rough night with my baby. Not to mention 23lbs of that was straight fat loss! We had a 12 week biggest loser at work majority were doing the low calories (eating like a bird) and doing no fat low carb, and protein diet. and i was doing keto with my butter, fatty stake, egg etc. everyone thought I was crazy. But the number and data don't lie! I won the fat loss and weight loss category. the others did lose weight but also lost a lot of muscle. I have 5 clients right now all only a month in and they all lost 5-13 lbs and 1-3.5 inches off their waist. So i am totally a keto advocate. seeing results with my clients and with my self also feeling the difference in my body and having clarity on keto compared to being on a non keto diet. Its very sustainable for me i don't need to worry about calories i just listen to my body i never did calorie restrict my self neither does my clients and we care getting amazing results!. I just eat when i'm hungry stop when im full. No starving trying to eat like a bird, being moody because you have to eat salads all day. just do your research and give it ago. and sorry so long lol really am passionate about it!
Obviously.
It's just too bad that all of that is incorrect and goes completely against physiology and the laws of energy balance. Magic doesn't exist, you have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. That's been scientifically proven over and over again. There is no "metabolic advantage" to a ketogenic diet, calories are calories.
Let's start here with some science:
https://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/
https://completehumanperformance.com/2013/07/23/why-calories-count/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316911061_A_Calorie_is_Still_a_Calorie_According_to_Rigorous_New_Evidence
http://georgiefear.com/2016/12/15/the-truth-about-ketogenic-dieting/
http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/
http://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-analysis-impact-of-carbohydrate-vs-fat-calories-on-energy-expenditure-and-body-fatness/
So much B.S. here. PLEASE realize this guy is 100% wrong and I am 100% proof of it. Have been doing intermittent fasting and keto for 77 days as of today and have lost 47 lbs so far. Have not been in a caloric deficit at all. In fact a lot of days I am in a caloric surplus. Do some research on combining intermittent fasting with keto.
And as I've said on other threads. If this guy or anyone on this sight want to put some money where their mouth is I will put up $1000 to anyone here to prove what I've lost, how I've lost it, and in how long I've lost it. 100% B.S. that you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Get your body into a FULL time keto adapted state and you will lose weight at an extrodinary rate. And if you want to gain muscle at the same time do that too by working out and making sure you eat at least between .4 to 1 gram of protein a day. I have been doing 5 to 10% carbs, 20 to 25% protein and around 70% good fats per day. Even with my exercise I still am not in a caloric deficit so don't believe everything you read here on this forum cause there is SO MUCH crap I am reading all over the place here. Best thing to do is try it and see what the truth is and if you want any guidance, advice, or info send me a message.
The power of combining intermittent fasting with keto is unbelievable powerful with fat loss, health, energy, muscle gain etc.. Just do a search online and read of all the people who report the incredible amazing results in their lives from it.
I do full body composition imaging scans to track my fat % loss and lean muscle mass gains. There is no better way to know for sure what's going on with your fat loss and muscle gains.
Great post and it really doesn't matter one bit what people who have zero experience doing what I and a ton of other people are doing say about it all. None of these people here who claim to know what they are talking about do long hour intermittent fasting/keto adapted living. They talk about it like they know but it is very very obvious they do not and only do so by reading other peoples posts, para phrase them, or quoting and/or linking some out dated blanket information that doesn't pertain at all to what I am talking about.
And anyone here who wants to learn more about intermittent fasting combined with keto can very very easily do some research on their own to find tons of results reflecting the same info I have been talking about. And I welcome and PM's as well. If I can help I'd be glad to. I have no ulterior motive. I am not selling anything lol. I could care less who does what with their weight loss. What I do care about is people knowing the truth of what has happened to me and others I know and mentor from just in case it can help a single person if they chose to go that route. And I care a great deal about people talking and shooting from the hip about something they have not done and no absolutely nothing about. Keto is Keto a lot of info about that. Intermittent fasting combined with Keto is a different thing all together.
What does matter is that at least some people that are here reading have other options to do with their body's what they want and to try for themselves. There has not been very many inventions, new creations, and technology expansion without people trying new things and often times thinking out of the box. It is the narrow minded narcissistic type of people who will not gain new knowledge, insight, new ideas or new ways of doing things. It is often unfortunately the follower mentality that leaves people from opening their minds as well. Going with the status quo so to speak.
Research and learn from trying. There is no other way on earth to get better, real true facts for your own body. You can read till your eyes fall out but the knowledge you gain will be a drop of water in the ocean compared to doing it yourself and learning from it.
Wait. You thought that was real?
Hilarious
LOL you are one of the "doesn't matter one bit what people who have zero experience doing what I and a ton of other people are doing say about it all" Guess you don't get sarcasm lol. Maybe re read it LOL10 -
akinastrong wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »
ksingingflutelady wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »@akinastrong Calories do matter.
I never said it didn't matter I just said I don't tract mine and restrict my calories because keto naturally suppresses my and my clients appetite.
Clients?! I hope you are referring to keto os or some other mlm type of clients......
Clients meaning people I'm am helping with the diet. And track there progress
You've been on keto for 4.5 months......
And you point is?
I personally would only pay for nutritional or fitness advice from people who have a lot more than 4.5 months of training.
First of all you have no idea the amount of research I have done prior to getting into the ketogenic diet and how long I've been researching prior to getting into it. You don't know my spouse and how long he's been doing it and then research he's put into it and you know what that's the problem with you guys on here you guys are too quick to judge and put people down to make yourself feel better and smarter I simply just shared my experience nothing more and this is the kind of backlash I get for doing so. And for your information I don't charge my clients I do it simply because I would like to see them healthier and feeling better and confident in their own skin. I have done my research and I know a lot about the diet I don't know it all but I do know a lot which is by myself and my clients never went through the keto flu or had any gut issues with the ketogenic diet. Some of you on here are just absolutely ridiculous Community post like this are supposed to be encouraging to help others but you guys in the other hand batch and belittle you guys should try in couraging someone for a change you might just feel better about your self
I don't think people are bashing you by any means. What I have seen, is people making corrections to some of your statements. Often people take corrections as criticism when confronted with scientific evidence that are contrary to their current beliefs. In my personal opinion, having a discussion including all aspects of nutrition and eliminating emotion from the discussion is the best way to grow. Many of us believe myths because it's working; I used to believe that you need to increase meal frequency to increase metabolism (boy was I wrong). But we tend to follow and listen to advice that supports our own opinions and views.
I am very glad that what you have discovered has worked for you. But keep in mind, that you are still very new to the diet and losing weight is the easy part, while maintaining is the hard part. I am one of those people are not satiated by fats. I need starchy carbs, higher protein (~1g/lb) and high fiber (~20-40g). I have lost 50 lbs and kept it off for over 6 or 7 years now following a moderate carb/higher protein diet. I am roughly 16% body fat and at a 32" inseam from a 38" at my highest point; currently, I am focused on lifting while doing a bit of recomp and or minor cutting.
I have tried many diets over my 9 years of doing of starting this and have done a ton of personal research. I have done IF, Paleo, and tried low carb. All of those were significant failures for me. I never saw suppressed appetite while fasting (it just made me hungrier), even after 3 months of it. I was constantly starving and had low energy with low carb even with keeping sodium in the 5000mg range. The fact is, all of those diets, just like all diets, have different impacts on how people feel and how sustainable they are will depend on the individual. Keto is no different. It still has a 80-90% failure rate.
But when calories and protein is controlled, there is no fat loss difference between the two. Calories do matter, as demonstrated by thousands of metabolic ward and energy balance studies (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/95/4/989/4576902) . These are facts, and only disputed by those trying to sell lifestyles (typically MD's, who don't have a background in nutritional sciences and metabolism (i.e., Dr. Fung)). Either way, regardless if you believe the science or not, if you enjoy your current eating style and feel its sustainable, then it's the best approach for you.
Now how does this apply to the OP? Simple, there is nothing we can say that will change the outcome. She will need to try to diet, if she feels it's right for her, to evaluate if it is. Your success and my successes are going to be completely different than others. I hope the OP finds a solution, but personally, I would never do keto. And trust me, I keep thinking about trying it, but I am a volume eater and fats are really expensive. It also makes me sad that I would have to cut out a ton of fruit, of which, I eat 3-7 servings of a day. I, also, don't want to take a step backwards on my lifting. Of the little evidence that does exist, anaerobic performance may be inhibited by keto diets. And even at best, muscle gains are not as easily obtained with keto diets (although, we can tailor those debates to: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611377/anyone-read-the-latest-research-on-keto-by-alan-aragon/p1)
And when I say bashing I'm talking about the belittling I got for my experience and the way I like to do things there is no one right way so people shouldn't be putting others down because they don't agree with the way somebody is doing something. But like I said at the bottom of my comment she just needs to try it out and go from there. As far as all of the evidence there is out there in the studies that people done it doesn't really matter to me because I'm doing it. And it's working. When people say keto they just think a lot of fat low carb smart to it than just that for me personally I don't just eat fat all day I eat and drink specific things at certain times especially with the fasting. You can't just eat fat all day and eat whatever vegetables you feel like while fasting on keto there certain vegetables you need for key nutrients. So my body always have the electrolytes and nutrients that it needs throughout the day. Which is the reason I had such a successful transition and none of the symptoms you hear out there that people get. I have dialed it down and that's how I do keto and fasting. As far as muscle building I've never felt as hard and toned as I do now. Even before the kids when I was really big into fitness and weight training. I have lost fat while preserving and building muscle. And I'm not saying that just because I'm looking at myself I say it because it's facts. I have been getting it checked. That's me and my clients. So to say I'm wrong based on all the studies out there that contradict My outcome I don't know what to say. Except I'm doing it i feel amazing and getting amazing results! I never thought i could get my body and you spot after having two babies back to back. And I prove myself wrong everyday. There are a lot of myths out there and a lot of old ways that people are stuck in. Need to try it and do it correctly and go from there not just with keto with anything.
You did not get belittling - although I could quote some of your belittling comments to others.
Nobody is doubting your way works for you - the zealous pushing it onto others ( which seems at odds with your own sentence ' there is no one right way' ) and making of absurd claims is what people are objecting to.
No good just saying All the studies are out there - if you want people to take it seriously, post them.
Me personally - I have no intention of trying keto diet. If it works for others, good for them. But I am staying stuck in old way of just eating correct calories within a reasonably balanced diet - that works for me.
PS serious request, not intended in mean way at all - please could you break up wall of text into more readable paragraphs?
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misschristine9724 wrote: »Yesterday was my first day haven’t ate much and today all I’ve had is scrambled eggs and water. I’m trying to decide if low carb is the way to go cuz I know the Keto diet depends on fats....but isn’t fat bad??. Or should I go with more protein and carbs.
I just had a baby a month ago so I’m looking to get down to my pre pregnancy weight of 133 currently sitting at 152. And no I’m not breastfeeding so that isn’t an issue. Just would like some input and some information.
My first 180 days of Keto was weird in many ways but now at about day 1300 I can not think of another way I would want to eat. I was old and very sick and knew my number was about up so my motivation was high to make it my WOE for life.
I expect within 90 days you will have an understanding if it is for you are not. There are many WOE's out there working well for many people.8 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.5 -
The only time I can remember seeing the phrase "Do your research" and "I've done my research" used this often then not be backed up by even a single links to credible research was by Anti-Vaxxer and Flat-earthers.
In my experience "Do your research" means; I have unverified anecdotal evidence from a sample size consisting of me and a couple of people I know but everything I read has contradicted what I think so I'll just yell do your research in capslock.
If this isn't the case I'm happy to read any genuine evidence you have that supports your case, but unfortunately 'Do your research' doesn't count.14 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.
Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.
It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).
ETA: to clean up my English.8 -
100_PROOF_ wrote: »Ok so if you say that your eating at a caloric surplus while in ketosis that you'll lose weight at extreme rates? ( water weight maybe but I'll play along) so how do people bulk in keto then? What about the people who want to gain weight on keto ? Will they not gain since keto magically causes weight loss without a deficit?
What real proof can you offer to support this extraordinary claim?
You're claiming that you can defy science and magically lose weight and build muscle just by doing keto and IF , correct?
I hope one of the ketovangelists answer this one. I'd really like to know. I mean, I've heard there are a few keto bodybuilders - how do they do it if they're just continually magically losing weight all the time from eating fat, regardless of how many calories they eat? That doesn't make sense to me at all. It's very confusing, I sure hope somebody can explain the scientific principles behind it.
Their bodies obviously know that they want to gain weight and automatically stop the perpetual motion keto machine from running for a while.6 -
I'm still waiting for the research/sources/studies too rather than the anecdotal. How *do* ketogenic body builders, bulk? Also, how is it that those who eat a ketogenic diet for life, do not waste away to nothing? I mean, there are those with Epilepsy who eat ketogenic 24/7/365 to control seizures and have for years. There are also keto advocates/practitioners such as Dr. Stephen Phinney, Dr. Eric Westman and Dr.(PhD) Domenic D'Agostino who chose to eat ketogenic and have been doing so for years. How do they control weight/fat loss for their maintenance? How is it they do not continuously lose scale weight and body fat?
I happen to be a fan of low carbing and, in fact, ate a ketogenic diet for 52 weeks as a trial for something other than weight management. MY N=1 (to provide balance) is, I neither gained weight nor lost weight on what I'm confident are my maintenance ... uh...calories. I also did not lose any observable body fat (my clothes still fit the same and I looked the same in the mirror). Though I did not "test" it, I suspect I would have gained weight on excess calorie intake.
If I decide to lose more weight, how much should I eat in excess of my known maintenance calories in order to lose more pounds on the scale and fat from my body? Eating LCHF does satiate me which is why I continue to eat lower carb and higher fat (after my keto trial-I no longer strive for ketosis). But I could eat more despite satiety. I really could. And I could willingly eat to be in an ongoing tested state of ketosis. I did not find a ketogenic diet to be a struggle and frankly eat very close to "that way" the vast majority of the time.
Please provide your sources for the weight/fat loss methods you advocate @PaulChasinDreams. It appears to be something contrary to what I have deduced from my research and my N=1. I'm game. I really don't have much weight to lose but I'd do it for the experience and results. I wanna know!
ETA for OP: I've been at this weight loss/maintenance game for 5 years, 80% of which has been maintenance. It really is true (IMO) that one should find a way of eating that they can adhere to long term. For me, low carb has been effective. While I did not eat a ketogenic diet for weight loss, I have seen many experience success with it. Likewise, I have seen many be successful with high carbohydrate intake. There is no one size fits all. After weight loss it remains a matter of adherence to a CICO balance regardless of the macro balance...IMO.5 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »akinastrong wrote: »I been on keto for 5 months now and I love it. prior to doing keto I could not stay away from carbs and sweets. a busy mom of two a 3 year old and a one year old keto was the best health choice I have ever made!!! I stick to 80%fat, 15% protein and 5% carb. the whole "caloric deficit " is a bunch of bull to me and I don't believe it at all. there is know way a person can prove how much calories you are burning through out the day. not one persons metabolic rate is the same and everyone does something different everyday so you cant put a straight number on it. and far as the studies read above the high carb and low carb yes its not different because "carbs is carbs" and what a lot of people are missing is keto is just not a low carb diet they key is a HIGH FAT diet. and your goal is to get into ketosis, that's where you start burning fat. Research high fat diet vs. low low carb diet and you will see the difference. I have lost 25lbs since starting keto and it was effortless I have also kicked the cravings for sweets and carbs. I have a ton more energy to play with my kids, and I don't wake up feeling like a zombie from having a rough night with my baby. Not to mention 23lbs of that was straight fat loss! We had a 12 week biggest loser at work majority were doing the low calories (eating like a bird) and doing no fat low carb, and protein diet. and i was doing keto with my butter, fatty stake, egg etc. everyone thought I was crazy. But the number and data don't lie! I won the fat loss and weight loss category. the others did lose weight but also lost a lot of muscle. I have 5 clients right now all only a month in and they all lost 5-13 lbs and 1-3.5 inches off their waist. So i am totally a keto advocate. seeing results with my clients and with my self also feeling the difference in my body and having clarity on keto compared to being on a non keto diet. Its very sustainable for me i don't need to worry about calories i just listen to my body i never did calorie restrict my self neither does my clients and we care getting amazing results!. I just eat when i'm hungry stop when im full. No starving trying to eat like a bird, being moody because you have to eat salads all day. just do your research and give it ago. and sorry so long lol really am passionate about it!
Obviously.
It's just too bad that all of that is incorrect and goes completely against physiology and the laws of energy balance. Magic doesn't exist, you have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. That's been scientifically proven over and over again. There is no "metabolic advantage" to a ketogenic diet, calories are calories.
Let's start here with some science:
https://shreddedbyscience.com/ketogenic-diets-actually-work-study-review/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16685046/
https://completehumanperformance.com/2013/07/23/why-calories-count/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316911061_A_Calorie_is_Still_a_Calorie_According_to_Rigorous_New_Evidence
http://georgiefear.com/2016/12/15/the-truth-about-ketogenic-dieting/
http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/do-carbohydrates-control-body-fat/
http://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-analysis-impact-of-carbohydrate-vs-fat-calories-on-energy-expenditure-and-body-fatness/
So much B.S. here. PLEASE realize this guy is 100% wrong and I am 100% proof of it. Have been doing intermittent fasting and keto for 77 days as of today and have lost 47 lbs so far. Have not been in a caloric deficit at all. In fact a lot of days I am in a caloric surplus. Do some research on combining intermittent fasting with keto.
And as I've said on other threads. If this guy or anyone on this sight want to put some money where their mouth is I will put up $1000 to anyone here to prove what I've lost, how I've lost it, and in how long I've lost it. 100% B.S. that you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Get your body into a FULL time keto adapted state and you will lose weight at an extrodinary rate. And if you want to gain muscle at the same time do that too by working out and making sure you eat at least between .4 to 1 gram of protein a day. I have been doing 5 to 10% carbs, 20 to 25% protein and around 70% good fats per day. Even with my exercise I still am not in a caloric deficit so don't believe everything you read here on this forum cause there is SO MUCH crap I am reading all over the place here. Best thing to do is try it and see what the truth is and if you want any guidance, advice, or info send me a message.
The power of combining intermittent fasting with keto is unbelievable powerful with fat loss, health, energy, muscle gain etc.. Just do a search online and read of all the people who report the incredible amazing results in their lives from it.
I do full body composition imaging scans to track my fat % loss and lean muscle mass gains. There is no better way to know for sure what's going on with your fat loss and muscle gains.
Great post and it really doesn't matter one bit what people who have zero experience doing what I and a ton of other people are doing say about it all. None of these people here who claim to know what they are talking about do long hour intermittent fasting/keto adapted living. They talk about it like they know but it is very very obvious they do not and only do so by reading other peoples posts, para phrase them, or quoting and/or linking some out dated blanket information that doesn't pertain at all to what I am talking about.
And anyone here who wants to learn more about intermittent fasting combined with keto can very very easily do some research on their own to find tons of results reflecting the same info I have been talking about. And I welcome and PM's as well. If I can help I'd be glad to. I have no ulterior motive. I am not selling anything lol. I could care less who does what with their weight loss. What I do care about is people knowing the truth of what has happened to me and others I know and mentor from just in case it can help a single person if they chose to go that route. And I care a great deal about people talking and shooting from the hip about something they have not done and no absolutely nothing about. Keto is Keto a lot of info about that. Intermittent fasting combined with Keto is a different thing all together.
What does matter is that at least some people that are here reading have other options to do with their body's what they want and to try for themselves. There has not been very many inventions, new creations, and technology expansion without people trying new things and often times thinking out of the box. It is the narrow minded narcissistic type of people who will not gain new knowledge, insight, new ideas or new ways of doing things. It is often unfortunately the follower mentality that leaves people from opening their minds as well. Going with the status quo so to speak.
Research and learn from trying. There is no other way on earth to get better, real true facts for your own body. You can read till your eyes fall out but the knowledge you gain will be a drop of water in the ocean compared to doing it yourself and learning from it.
It seems to me you're restricting calories and not even know it. Going keto works great for those who are easily satiated by fat. Combining that with an eating window of 8 hours results naturally in less calorie intake. You eat highly satiating foods for you, and you do that only within a 6 to 8-hour window ==> lowered calorie intake, unless you're popping 500 g of almonds, 3 avocados and 2 big steaks with a dozen boiled eggs, all within those 8 hours. A bit of an exageration, but that's what it is - it's naturally eating less calories than normal due to the foods and the time restrictions imposed.4 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.
Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.
It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).
ETA: to clean up my English.
Awesome points. I get it that a calorie that I eat is not functionally a calorie if my body for any reason does not metabolize it.
I see the rather high calorie coconut flakes that I am eating now contain 4 gram of carbs and 4 grams of dietary fiber per 110 calorie serving and each 90 calories of chocolate that I am eating as I type contains 4 grams of carbs and 3 grams of dietary.
Keto is not magically but it can seem that way sometimes when we do not understand how it can lead to weight loss and maintaining that weight loss.
As you know I gave up trying to lose weight but just manage my pain and to improve my measurable health markers at the age of 63 by diet changes only.
I still do not think Keto will work out for the masses if weight loss it the main objective of this WOE because there are many more conventional WOE's that will lead to weight loss.
In my case keto cutting out my binging on high carb/fat foods I think is key to Keto working in my personal case. The automatic recomping feature is helpful in my case. I never knew I could cut body fat without losing weight.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »VERY VERY simple science here people. Some of you posting here just don't understand it and or are just brainwashed into believing you HAVE to be in a caloric deficit to lose FAT. NO YOU DON'T. Try to read and understand what a TRULY KETO ADAPTED METABOLISM IS!!! YOU burn fat all day long even if you are NOT in a deficit!!!!
AND VERY VERY simple science how guys like me are gaining lean muscle mass WHILE losing FAT... Your muscles grow by being in sense "injured" while working out. Injured isn't a great term but in fact the muscles get tons of tiny tears in them and they require protein "amino acids" to repair those areas. As the muscles repair they grow and gain size and weight. All you need to do is find the right number of grams of protein to eat per lb of your body weight for your body to keep those muscles fed as you continue to lose body fat. Usually between .4 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. This Is not a new thing lol. Friends of mine have been doing this for quite awhile now. Just because you are losing FAT DOESN'T mean the muscles won't grow if you feed them and work them out. Your body will NOT go CATOTONIC IF IT IS IN A FULL KETO ADAPTED STATE AND YOU FEED YOURSELF ENOUGH PROTEIN!!!
No, I'm afraid you do have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. Your calories consumed (in)must be less than your calories out CI<CO. I'm a huge fan of keto, and have been doing it for a few years, but you still need to eat at a caloric deficit to lose weight.
That being said, some keto'ers, especially those with insulin resistance, find that a ketogenic diet allows them to eat more than they normally could while losing weight. For example, I had a deficit set to lose 1-1.5 lbs a week but lost 2-3 lbs on most weeks. I firmly believe that keto can affect some people's CO. The appetite suppressing benefits can also affect CI.
People can gain weight while ketogenic... it just doesn't happen often.
No I'm afraid you are very very wrong and there are tons of us doing keto combined with intermittent fasting and losing fat very rapidly with no caloric deficit. You and others can doubt it all you want and type it out that you can't but that doesn't change the fact that lots of us are doing it. And note I said "combined with keto" Only takes a few minutes for you yourself to do a search of peoples stories on line, pictures, videos etc of folks doing exactly that. I am living proof of it and have a nutritionist and doctor watching my weight loss, documenting it, and taking pictures of all the progress. As I have mentioned earlier I also do body composition imaging scans (Dexa) to track my fat loss and lean muscle mass gain. Also another rampant myth that people like to put out there is that you will lose muscle mass while losing fat and that you can't gain lean muscle mass while losing fat. A very very untrue statement as well. I suggest to you and others instead of believing reports and studies you read then trying to tell other people it's the gospel and only way that you yourself actually try to combine intermittent fasting with keto and just watch what happens. And also, once again I will repeat that I do a 23 to 23.5 hr fast between my meals. And my calories in vs calories out are almost always neutral even including exercise. As mentioned earlier every gram I eat is documented and weighed. Every calorie I burn is documented and measured. Also as I have previously mentioned not everyone is the same when it comes to intermittent fasting and a fully keto adapted metabolism. A lot of people doing keto find that they are lower in ketones in their waking hours and can fall out of ketosis at times even when getting the carbs very very low. Which in turns doesn't allow their metabolism to become truly Keto Adapted. They are in fact in ketosis some of the day where they are burning fat but one of the largest factors noted by my doctor and my nutritionist is that with the combination of intermittent fasting and keto eating is that I have been in ketosis from 1.3 to 2.4 ish every single day 24 hrs a day. No readings ever dipping under the Keto Adapted numbers. This is relatively new info to some out there but if you search around you will find a lot of us combining a high ratio intermittent fasting with keto are in 24 hr full Keto Adaptation. This may be some of the science going on with the very rapid fat loss while not having to have a caloric deficit. We all lose fat at different rates. My doctor is on record on my health file writing that he, in his medical career has not seen fat loss (not weight loss remember...this is all body comp scanned scientific results cause I am also gaining lean muscle mass) this fast other than by patients whom have had surgery. So not only the doctor is closely following the progress but a nutritionist and the body comp imaging tech is closely documenting it. Further to note is that when I started this 78 days ago I was pre diabetic with blood sugar from 110 to 120 regularly after a fast. I am currently always in my low to mid 80's now, no longer pre diabetic, and my blood pressure has gone from averages or around 145/90 to 118/72 currently. Proof is in the pudding as we say right? It is also closely documented that I was at times in caloric surplus over a two week test period and still dropped 3 lbs per week each of those weeks and that was after my water weight loss period had passed. So post all the studies you want and research you want. Live it, learn it, and see it for yourself if you truly want to know what's possible and is fact. There are tons of us doing this out there. Search and see for yourself. Furthermore if you read all I have posted you will see that I have stated there is a difference between just keto and keto combined with intermittent fasting. And all kinds of variables come into play with that.
I'm not arguing that some people can lose weight at a higher calorie intake when ketogenic than when they are not. I've experienced that. I've been ketogenic for most of the past 3 years. I use IF too. My eating window is usually about 8 hours. Once or twice a year I try to fast a couple of days too.
What I am trying to say is that in order to lose weight, you must eat fewer calories than you use. When I eat ketogenic, the calories I use tends to be well over 2500 kcals - not bad since I am not a very active middle aged woman. When I do not eat low carb, my calorie needs appear to drop because I will gain weight at the same caloric intake.
When ketogenic, I will slowly lose weight at 2000 kcal. When not ketogenic, I do not lose at that calorie intake. When I was losing, I was eating at a calorie deficit. What changes for me is what caloric level is a deficit, and that is partially dependent on food types for me.
Sam Feltham has some interesting self experiments eating at a caloric surplus.
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
When he ate 5000 kcal a day of ketogenic foods he gained less than when he ate a diet higher in carbs. To me that means that the CO in CICO is higher when he eats ketogenically than when he does not. CO appears to be affected by diet in some people, especially those with IR.
But he did still gain weight while eating 5000kcal of a ketogenic diet.
Of course he gained more weight on high carb, especially after being low carb for so long, because glycogen and water stores from increases in insulin. He also did the same overfeed trick as other low carb experiments, where he get a lot of calories from nuts, where it is known that a person can't metabolize the membranes. So while a package might indicate 200 calories per servings, it's actually less. And considering he is eating 3000 calories in nuts, it's probably closer to 1500 calories that are actually metabolized. I would like to see this experiment done with cheese, oils, butter, or other fats. But his n=1 is not very well done. Jason Witrock did the same thing. His diet had a lot of nuts but he also didn't baseline his caloric needs.
It also doesn't account for spontaneous increase in EE driven by more calories (common in those bulking) and the overfeeding effect (increases in metabolism to deal with additional calories).
ETA: to clean up my English.
Awesome points. I get it that a calorie that I eat is not functionally a calorie if my body for any reason does not metabolize it.
I see the rather high calorie coconut flakes that I am eating now contain 4 gram of carbs and 4 grams of dietary fiber per 110 calorie serving and each 90 calories of chocolate that I am eating as I type contains 4 grams of carbs and 3 grams of dietary.
Keto is not magically but it can seem that way sometimes when we do not understand how it can lead to weight loss and maintaining that weight loss.
As you know I gave up trying to lose weight but just manage my pain and to improve my measurable health markers at the age of 63 by diet changes only.
I still do not think Keto will work out for the masses if weight loss it the main objective of this WOE because there are many more conventional WOE's that will lead to weight loss.
In my case keto cutting out my binging on high carb/fat foods I think is key to Keto working in my personal case. The automatic recomping feature is helpful in my case. I never knew I could cut body fat without losing weight.
Gale, you are largely mistaken if you believe we don't know how keto can lead to fat loss. It leads to fat loss if it can drive a deficit, which can happen when you cut out an entire macronutrient. It's no different than becoming vegan all of a sudden.
Also, the point is, nut members are similar to fiber.. it's not really metabolized. And at some point, as more studies confirm that, they will make updates to the nutrition labels.9 -
Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!18
-
flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You clearly do not really understand insulin and it's role in the body. It is not "the fat storage hormone" There is no "fat storage hormone". Fat is stored from excess energy intake.
8 -
Staggered at the sheer level of woo peddled in this thread. My guess it that a lot of the nonsense has come from the keto drink/pill MLM people.
Insulin is not a fat storage hormone. Our bodies store fat IF we eat too much. When we balance CICO it doesn't give the body excess calories to convert to and store as fat. HTH.
https://niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance9 -
flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.7 -
General observation:
Those who post wild claims and tell those listening to "do your research" are confusing whose responsibility it is to back up their claims......with research.8 -
I've done low carb many many times and the one time I counted calories along with it (no modifying just ate what I always ate on low carb) I was shocked to see I was eating a low calorie diet. The first week on low carb for me is woohoo I lost a lot of weight- the second week pretty good loss and after that it's the same as every other plan. I find this explanation in the article below to be helpful.
I eat less on low carb because when you eat foods higher in fat you're satiated and therefore eat less.
In addition to low carb making me feel crap, anybody telling me I can't have something is sure to fail from the get go. Everything in moderation said no diet book ever that's why there are so many of them out there.
https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/low-carb-diet/5 -
All good observations. just like a lot of things in life there is more than one way to loose weight. lol
My weight loss occurred from a balanced diet with emphasis on the CICO theory...
4 -
flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.
The information on ASP as the main driver of fat accumulation has not been proven. At least not by 2011. But I will keep digging for more information on that one. This was just one of the things I quickly dug up.
http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/
Glucose dependent Insulitropic peptide or (GIP) This stimulates insulin production independent of blood glucose levels and is referred to at an incretin. This brings it back around to the insulin response.
https://idmprogram.com/incretin-effect/
I guess that brings us to the hormone sensitive lipase: HSL is activated when the body needs to mobilize energy stores, and so responds positively to catecholamines, ACTH. It is inhibited by insulin.
That one was the hardest to dig up info on. I can and probably will go on digging up more information, because I like that sort of thing. I never like half a story.7 -
I did keto for about 4 months last year. I did lose a lot of weight pretty quickly, but I found it hard to sustain long term. I just can't not have pizza or cake ever again, lol. Be warned that if you ever go off of keto you'll gain all the weight back in, like, a week. It's crazy. IMO, counting calories and maybe separating the fuels (ala Trim Healthy Mama) is the better way to go. But then I just can't do extreme diets, I love food too much.0
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flitabout38 wrote: »flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
You realize that your body stores dietary fat much easier than glucose? Do you also understand their are multiple methods of storing nutrients? When fat is high and insulin is low, your body has enzymes to suppress the fat burning? Both Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose-Dependent Insulitropic Peptide are enzymes that suppress Hormone Sensitive Lipase, to allow the body to store nutrients.
The information on ASP as the main driver of fat accumulation has not been proven. At least not by 2011. But I will keep digging for more information on that one. This was just one of the things I quickly dug up.
http://slowburnfitness.com/fat-regulation-insulin-or-asp/
Glucose dependent Insulitropic peptide or (GIP) This stimulates insulin production independent of blood glucose levels and is referred to at an incretin. This brings it back around to the insulin response.
https://idmprogram.com/incretin-effect/
I guess that brings us to the hormone sensitive lipase: HSL is activated when the body needs to mobilize energy stores, and so responds positively to catecholamines, ACTH. It is inhibited by insulin.
That one was the hardest to dig up info on. I can and probably will go on digging up more information, because I like that sort of thing. I never like half a story.
none of those links are scientific peer reviewed studies though. the first one is to sell a product and the second is by a nephrologist who has been debunked with his woo on insulin9 -
Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!7
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When u first start keto dont track macros. Just read the label keep ur carbs under 20 net carbs eat when ur hungry dont worry abput how much your eating at first because let me tell u the first month i was always hungry i mean always. Not too much veggies lots of fats and protein.7
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My philosophy is that is has to WORK LONG TERM. If you don't think you can do a keto-type diet forever, then don't do it now. It has to be something you can stick to. Think of what your maintenance plan is now, not when you've lost the weight, because if you have no plan then, it is really easy for the weight to come back. I've done keto in the past and re-gained all of that weight. I'm now keeping off 35lbs with a balanced diet focused on keeping my calories at a certain level! CICO baby!5
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flitabout38 wrote: »Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!
its not that I dont like the sources its because they are not legit. this one says that there was really no change in weight or fat https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903931/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29541907
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18957499
the other links show that diet and weight loss alone help with weight and fat loss. as for lipids in the blood when you lose weight they will go up for a short time and go back down over time if the person does not have a genetic defect which makes their lipids high.. whether you have abdominal fat or not. you cant spot reduce fat if thats what you are getting at with the abdominal obesity. not to mention most of these studies are done on rats and are inconclusive at best in most studies.
@psuLemon can you post that link you had that shows that weight and fat loss in keto diets compared to low fat diets(I think it was) is basically the same8 -
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.
That is a bit of an overly simplistic explanation of insulin but I believe we're talking about insulin resistance at non diabetic levels and it's relationship to fat storage. See Wilcox, G: Insulin and Insulin Resistance, Clin Biochem Rev 2005 May. Particularly the section on Insulin Secretion in Response to Stimuli.
CICO works fine for overweight persons in general. Nutrient partitioning and controlling insulin response really begin to show their effects on competitive athletes and very fit individuals. I personally don't adhere to a ketogenic diet but I don't consume wheat, unless it's heirloom, or refined sugars. That tends to keep my carb intake in the 75 to 150 gram per day levels. If i go above that for any extended amount of time it gets difficult to keep my BF% in the 10% range. So if we're measuring BF and not weight than the idea that low carb only drops water weight is untrue. My run, swim, and bicycle times in training also seem to suffer. And that's with no change in total caloric intake. So CICO also doesn't hold true as the only basis of weight gain, loss, or maintenance. I realize that that's anecdotal, but it seems to hold true with those I train and compete with.
11 -
flitabout38 wrote: »Still digging and I am not finding any difference in the actual information that I posted. You may not like the sources I quickly dug up, but that doesn't change the fact that the are true. If you can dig up any better studies than I can find I would love to read them! The most recent study I could find that was done in 2013 on ASP was about 85 men and was more based on blood lipids in abdominal obesity that higher levels of the APS which might be due to APS resistance. Again still digging!!!!!
If you want, youtube Layne Norton, PhD (BioLayne) has videos on metabolism and weight loss. He goes through the basics of fat and protein metabolism. Fats store as fat more often than carbs. De Novo Lipogenesis studies have already proven that. In fact, carbs only store at roughly 10% or less of the time. Kevin Hall, PhD (one of the head researchers at the NIH has conducted multiple isocaloric studies, include a metabolic ward study, where protein and calories were equal and saw no difference in weight loss between a ketogenic group and a high carb/high sugar group. Similar long term studies by Arizona University, and others demonstrated the same thing.
If low insulin was required to maintain a healthy lifestyle, than all the longest living and healthiest nations in the world wouldn't all be 70 to 80% carbs. The fact is, the only people who are pushing insulin theory are those who are no educated in the field (Taubes, Moore, Berg, Fung). Ironically, one of Kevin Halls studies was funded by NuSI (owned by Taubes) which was a metabolic ward study that reinforced that when calories and protein are matched, there is no difference outside of personal adherence. Ironically, also in those studies, they found basal insulin levels dropped in both groups.
Where keto and IF can be helpful is with compliance and those with insulin resistance and diabetes.6 -
joeydahatt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/diabetes/overview/what-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance
https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/flitabout38 wrote: »Going keto and using it to intermittent fast works because it lowers insulin. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. I like food way too much to cut my calories. This is the only way I get to eat real food that doesn't taste like cardboard in child size portions and after torturing myself for months only to gain it all back still eating the same cardboard kiddie portions. If that makes me dumb so be it I eat 2100-2200 calories a day and I am losing weight. My tummy is happy and tiny!
Insulin isn't this big scary thing...your body needs insulin to transport energy to every cell in your body. Saying that it's a fat storage hormone is overly simplistic.
That is a bit of an overly simplistic explanation of insulin but I believe we're talking about insulin resistance at non diabetic levels and it's relationship to fat storage. See Wilcox, G: Insulin and Insulin Resistance, Clin Biochem Rev 2005 May. Particularly the section on Insulin Secretion in Response to Stimuli.
CICO works fine for overweight persons in general. Nutrient partitioning and controlling insulin response really begin to show their effects on competitive athletes and very fit individuals. I personally don't adhere to a ketogenic diet but I don't consume wheat, unless it's heirloom, or refined sugars. That tends to keep my carb intake in the 75 to 150 gram per day levels. If i go above that for any extended amount of time it gets difficult to keep my BF% in the 10% range. So if we're measuring BF and not weight than the idea that low carb only drops water weight is untrue. My run, swim, and bicycle times in training also seem to suffer. And that's with no change in total caloric intake. So CICO also doesn't hold true as the only basis of weight gain, loss, or maintenance. I realize that that's anecdotal, but it seems to hold true with those I train and compete with.
CICO is universally true; its foundationally a simplification of energy balance. Where it becomes an issue is that people believe that their TDEE is always the same on all diets. But what really happens, is that certain diets can cause an increase in NEAT, TEA or TEF (high protein), which may increase EE. It's no different than how I have always responded better eating 2300 to 2500 calories, than I even did on a 1800 calorie diet. If I low carb, and I have tried, I always fail. I am always starving and lethargic. For me, since I am volume eater, I have always performed based with 150 to 170g of protein with 250 to 350g of carbs.5
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