What Was Your Work Out Today?
Replies
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Back to rowing the double today, about 7.3k.
Yesterday (Tuesday) was an unanticipated and undesired rest day: Usually, it'd be spin class, but Monday night about 10:30PM, my right front car fender and a whitetail deer both tried to occupy the same space at the same time, to the detriment of both.
So, Tuesday morning was adulting my way through the aftermath (insurance adjuster, bodyshop, car rental), rather than having fun at spin class. I was signed up to supervise the rowing club's open rowing session in the evening, but that's more about helping others, and didn't in this case involve actual rowing myself.8,500m in a quad this morning - race line up. Some steady state going up with some tens thrown in. After we turned around we did some race starts and then 2x 2min on/1min off and 2x 1min race pace (so on)/1min build and sprint.
We had a crappy selection of oars (and lights...) because there were so many boats that went out so I had a set of oars that were too long for me. A former US national team coach visited this past spring and as a result we have three lengths of sculling oars (four if you count the one pair that are for the two or three people who are 5ish feet tall and shorter). Or rather, the buttons are adjusted for varying heights. Needless to say, the hangnails on my right thumb suffered today :P
By too long, I assume you mean too much inboard? (I can mash up fingers either way, short or long inboard - only difference is where in the stroke it will happen .
) Too-short inboard plus CLAMs could be better, but I'm assuming you didn't have that option. Frustrating!
Do you do some simple race start like half/half/three-quarters/three-quarters/full/lengthen, or is your coach/club one that uses more tricksy (and I think harder to execute) sequences?
For non-rowers: Race starts in rowing use special stroke sequences when the boats start from stationary on a starting line. Generally, these involve shorter, choppier strokes at first to accelerate the boat-hull, then lengthen out to normal-length strokes (and on the psych side, these sequences can get people to manage their adrenaline and settle into a sustainable race pace). Normal humans, without a race plan, tend to let adrenaline make them too fast off the start, which then is likely to cause depletion and speed loss somewhere later in the race. The start sequence stroke-length is a different concept from the stroke rating (strokes per minute), which may be varied strategically, somewhat, during the body of the race.)
Ugh I'm sorry about your run in with a deer the other day. That sucks for you and the deer.
My club uses a more complicated start sequence that I'm at this point very used to - or rather I'm used to it when I row sweep. three-quarters/half/three-quarters/lengthen/full. I'm very good at it when I'm rowing sweep. I'm less good with sculling but I think that's more an issue of not having done it a lot than anything. It clicked the third time we practiced the first three strokes. When we practice we'll do the first two stokes, the first three, and then full starts (then we'll do start plus 5, etc).
And yes, the inboard length was too long. I'm slowly learning that if I want the oars that I know will work for me (they're color coded), I'm going to have to make my way towards the oar rack as soon as I figure out whether I'm going to be in a quad or a double (or a single I suppose).2 -
60 minute Krav Maga stripe test. A bit stressful, but rewarding.1
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MikePfirrman wrote: »25 min of lifting for my entire body
10 min of ab/core exercises on the floor
10 min warm up - 1 mile run
60 min ride on exercise bike doing random hills at a high resistance
9 min 4x500 row at highest resistance with 30 second rests in between-hard as possible
8 min 2 reps x 60 seconds of burpees, side lunges, jump lunges, and mountain climbers
Workout time: 152 minutes
I had a ton of energy today and just wanted to keep going but forced a stop Bc I want to go hard again tomorrow and run more to get my knee back. The guy next to me raced me in my rows and I beat him—but it pushed us both harder and was a lot of fun...
Please be careful with that. Ann might be able to chime in as well, but most, even men, should never ever use the highest Damper setting (what most know as resistance). Depending on the machine, it should not feel like you're weight lifting. Inevitably, you will injure your back. I use very low settings. It's a cardio machine, not a weight lifting machine. Also remember from physics class that Power equals force times velocity. It's about how fast your drive is as much as it is your force (from the Damper setting being higher).
Even world record holder rowers never use the highest Damper unless they are doing very short sprints, like 100 meters. And those are men that are 6 foot 4 or so and 250 lbs. I'm a decent Indoor rower (regionally competitive). I went to one Orange Theory class and broke their 500m "record" easily. Now, I use Dampers that are lighter because I have a bad back right now. This might helps explain damper more for you. It's a very common mistake among those that don't row all the time. I used to do the same thing.
Please trust me on this. My indoor rowing club, Sub7, has most of the top women not only in the US, but also the world. The one woman in my club (from Eastern Europe) rowed a 6:40 something 2K and crushed the World Record. She's around 6 foot 3 and doesn't use the top damper settings.
https://darkhorserowing.com/understanding-the-magic-of-damper-settings-and-drag-factor/
Thanks so much for this advice...I usually put the damper at my home gym at 3-4 and I always focus on speed and my form (they have a mirror to check my posturing too)...this machine was at a gym near my work and was one of the fan ones—the only reason I set it up that high was bc I was trying to adjust it to the normal drag I feel on my gym’s machine, which I can tell by how it feels and my speed. (I was doing my 500m 15-20 seconds faster than I normally do on the machine I am used to). It was nowhere near a lift feel (and I’m a weakling in my arm lifts so I’m a lot more sensitive to that...
I copy these diary entries from my own notes and I make note for the sake of attempting to be consistent as I need to go to different gyms, it helps me remember how to configure the machines a bit more. I think this machine at this gym was not working correctly or doesn’t allow an extreme drag. Should I reduce anyway?
Thanks so much for the info though. EXTREMELY helpful and thoughtful
Yes, on Concept 2 machines (which are the gold standard of the flywheel type) for sure, damper setting is not "resistance". One doesn't increase the setting to make the workout harder; one pushes harder with the legs and uses good overall mechanics (distinct role for legs then back then arms in sequence) to accelerate the flywheel more quickly, which makes the workout harder. In effect, resistance is self-generated.
If someone can't get a good workout at a low damper setting (3-6), odds are strong that technique improvement would be useful. (In saying this, I can't speak to deficiencies of poorly maintained gym machines; this is true for adequately-maintained ones.) For all but specialized drills, it's common for women - including elite women like the US national team - to be in the 3s to 4s damper range, not much more.
I usually machine row at 3 to 3 and half, which feels the most "boat like" to me. I frequently machine row in Winter at facilities owned by a NCAA Div I varsity women's rowing team; we usually find the damper set closer to 4 on all the machines when we arrive there. I'm quite confident that's where they do the bulk of their machine rowing.
If you have a C2 at home, and use a different one at the gym, you can use the drag factor option on the monitor to find what drag factor you like at home, then set the gym machine at whatever damper setting gives you the same drag factor.
The only other machines I've used are WaterRowers, where I believe the water fill is what's controlling the "boat feel", in addition to the technique issues, but I'm not expert about those.
When you say you "focus on speed and form", I hope that speed means meters per minute (or pace, minutes per 500m being the usual split), and not focus on increasing strokes per minute. The highest stroke rating (strokes per minute) is something I see I lot of gym-goers try to maximize, but power per stroke (better measured by the pace if no watts display) is a more useful thing to pursue for fitness benefits . . . let alone boat speed.
Happy rowing!
Thanks for all the great info and links and sorry for using the wrong terminology.
This month, I found via heart rate monitoring (and how sweaty I got) that I got my best workout on a 3-4 setting, so that’s why I’ve been choosing it at my local gym near my home. It’s good to know more of the technical info from you to back up using this setting. It doesn’t feel like I’m lifting in my arms and I have researched form (and monitored it in the gym). I’m also feeling the work and burn in the legs that transitioned to my core and then arms, but I’ll keep working to perfect my form from the info you provided.
To calibrate the new machine yesterday, I essentially found the setting in which 10 rows produced the the most comparable distance to my usual row machine (in the lower settings, I was measuring much longer rows—which seemed off)...
I generally don’t focus too greatly on the total time it takes me to row a certain distance, I focus a lot more on the number of strokes and the distance I’m getting on each stroke (I guess you wouldn’t really call that speed). I’m finding I’m doing this Bc I’m not utilizing and working my arms enough—so I’m trying to better use them and achieve less strokes per 500 meter splits. Naturally, getting more distance out of the stroke is giving me a lower total time to get to particular distances. I also use the estimated time per 500m metric to understand if my rhythm and flow is constant...please feel free to comment if I’m doing this all wrong!0 -
Simple today—1 hour run.0
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MikePfirrman wrote: »25 min of lifting for my entire body
10 min of ab/core exercises on the floor
10 min warm up - 1 mile run
60 min ride on exercise bike doing random hills at a high resistance
9 min 4x500 row at highest resistance with 30 second rests in between-hard as possible
8 min 2 reps x 60 seconds of burpees, side lunges, jump lunges, and mountain climbers
Workout time: 152 minutes
I had a ton of energy today and just wanted to keep going but forced a stop Bc I want to go hard again tomorrow and run more to get my knee back. The guy next to me raced me in my rows and I beat him—but it pushed us both harder and was a lot of fun...
Please be careful with that. Ann might be able to chime in as well, but most, even men, should never ever use the highest Damper setting (what most know as resistance). Depending on the machine, it should not feel like you're weight lifting. Inevitably, you will injure your back. I use very low settings. It's a cardio machine, not a weight lifting machine. Also remember from physics class that Power equals force times velocity. It's about how fast your drive is as much as it is your force (from the Damper setting being higher).
Even world record holder rowers never use the highest Damper unless they are doing very short sprints, like 100 meters. And those are men that are 6 foot 4 or so and 250 lbs. I'm a decent Indoor rower (regionally competitive). I went to one Orange Theory class and broke their 500m "record" easily. Now, I use Dampers that are lighter because I have a bad back right now. This might helps explain damper more for you. It's a very common mistake among those that don't row all the time. I used to do the same thing.
Please trust me on this. My indoor rowing club, Sub7, has most of the top women not only in the US, but also the world. The one woman in my club (from Eastern Europe) rowed a 6:40 something 2K and crushed the World Record. She's around 6 foot 3 and doesn't use the top damper settings.
https://darkhorserowing.com/understanding-the-magic-of-damper-settings-and-drag-factor/
Thanks so much for this advice...I usually put the damper at my home gym at 3-4 and I always focus on speed and my form (they have a mirror to check my posturing too)...this machine was at a gym near my work and was one of the fan ones—the only reason I set it up that high was bc I was trying to adjust it to the normal drag I feel on my gym’s machine, which I can tell by how it feels and my speed. (I was doing my 500m 15-20 seconds faster than I normally do on the machine I am used to). It was nowhere near a lift feel (and I’m a weakling in my arm lifts so I’m a lot more sensitive to that...
I copy these diary entries from my own notes and I make note for the sake of attempting to be consistent as I need to go to different gyms, it helps me remember how to configure the machines a bit more. I think this machine at this gym was not working correctly or doesn’t allow an extreme drag. Should I reduce anyway?
Thanks so much for the info though. EXTREMELY helpful and thoughtful
Yes, on Concept 2 machines (which are the gold standard of the flywheel type) for sure, damper setting is not "resistance". One doesn't increase the setting to make the workout harder; one pushes harder with the legs and uses good overall mechanics (distinct role for legs then back then arms in sequence) to accelerate the flywheel more quickly, which makes the workout harder. In effect, resistance is self-generated.
If someone can't get a good workout at a low damper setting (3-6), odds are strong that technique improvement would be useful. (In saying this, I can't speak to deficiencies of poorly maintained gym machines; this is true for adequately-maintained ones.) For all but specialized drills, it's common for women - including elite women like the US national team - to be in the 3s to 4s damper range, not much more.
I usually machine row at 3 to 3 and half, which feels the most "boat like" to me. I frequently machine row in Winter at facilities owned by a NCAA Div I varsity women's rowing team; we usually find the damper set closer to 4 on all the machines when we arrive there. I'm quite confident that's where they do the bulk of their machine rowing.
If you have a C2 at home, and use a different one at the gym, you can use the drag factor option on the monitor to find what drag factor you like at home, then set the gym machine at whatever damper setting gives you the same drag factor.
The only other machines I've used are WaterRowers, where I believe the water fill is what's controlling the "boat feel", in addition to the technique issues, but I'm not expert about those.
When you say you "focus on speed and form", I hope that speed means meters per minute (or pace, minutes per 500m being the usual split), and not focus on increasing strokes per minute. The highest stroke rating (strokes per minute) is something I see I lot of gym-goers try to maximize, but power per stroke (better measured by the pace if no watts display) is a more useful thing to pursue for fitness benefits . . . let alone boat speed.
Happy rowing!
Thanks for all the great info and links and sorry for using the wrong terminology.
This month, I found via heart rate monitoring (and how sweaty I got) that I got my best workout on a 3-4 setting, so that’s why I’ve been choosing it at my local gym near my home. It’s good to know more of the technical info from you to back up using this setting. It doesn’t feel like I’m lifting in my arms and I have researched form (and monitored it in the gym). I’m also feeling the work and burn in the legs that transitioned to my core and then arms, but I’ll keep working to perfect my form from the info you provided.
To calibrate the new machine yesterday, I essentially found the setting in which 10 rows produced the the most comparable distance to my usual row machine (in the lower settings, I was measuring much longer rows—which seemed off)...
I generally don’t focus too greatly on the total time it takes me to row a certain distance, I focus a lot more on the number of strokes and the distance I’m getting on each stroke (I guess you wouldn’t really call that speed). I’m finding I’m doing this Bc I’m not utilizing and working my arms enough—so I’m trying to better use them and achieve less strokes per 500 meter splits. Naturally, getting more distance out of the stroke is giving me a lower total time to get to particular distances. I also use the estimated time per 500m metric to understand if my rhythm and flow is constant...please feel free to comment if I’m doing this all wrong!
What you're doing isn't unreasonable, in terms of looking at distance per stroke, or strokes per distance. In one sense, getting a shorter split is the key goal, but people who do that by increasing stroke rating are going to run out of improvement potential much sooner (very soon!) than people who figure out how to do it by getting more out of each stroke, as you're doing.
If it's a Concept 2, consider using the power graph (the one that shows a graph of a single stroke) as a self-coaching tool. You want a smooth curve, somewhat like a hill with smooth slopes up and down (no dips or divots in the slopes). Some coaches like the up-slope to be similar to the down-slope; others like a steeper up-slope (as steep as practical), so the hill seems shifted toward the left. Dips in the smooth slope tend to be points where the power transfer from (say) legs to back, or back to arms, are not as sequential-but-integrated as they should be. Because the graph lags your body a bit, it can be harder to figure exactly what the problem is, but it can help you recognize that there is one.
Another good self-coaching feedback point is a feeling of suspension: From the moment your feet press down to start the drive, you should feel a very small decompression of your glutes against the seat as your weight becomes suspended between the foot-stretcher and handle, and it should be possible to hang onto that slight decompression all the way through to the nanosecond before you reverse into the recovery phase.
You keep mentioning using your arms, but I'm hoping that your key focus is getting (and increasing) leg power right off the catch . . . I'm sure you realize that legs are the main power source, followed by back, and the arms are relatively smaller contributors. To me (and this is subjective), arms feels like it's more about acceleration than pure power. Getting your arms away quickly on the recovery will tend to give you a bit of "free" split improvement, too, by not giving the flywheel as much chance to slow down. (It isn't cheating because, within certain parameters, it will also be a good thing to do in a boat.)
It sounds like you're doing fine. You're probably faster than I am. 2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »25 min of lifting for my entire body
10 min of ab/core exercises on the floor
10 min warm up - 1 mile run
60 min ride on exercise bike doing random hills at a high resistance
9 min 4x500 row at highest resistance with 30 second rests in between-hard as possible
8 min 2 reps x 60 seconds of burpees, side lunges, jump lunges, and mountain climbers
Workout time: 152 minutes
I had a ton of energy today and just wanted to keep going but forced a stop Bc I want to go hard again tomorrow and run more to get my knee back. The guy next to me raced me in my rows and I beat him—but it pushed us both harder and was a lot of fun...
Please be careful with that. Ann might be able to chime in as well, but most, even men, should never ever use the highest Damper setting (what most know as resistance). Depending on the machine, it should not feel like you're weight lifting. Inevitably, you will injure your back. I use very low settings. It's a cardio machine, not a weight lifting machine. Also remember from physics class that Power equals force times velocity. It's about how fast your drive is as much as it is your force (from the Damper setting being higher).
Even world record holder rowers never use the highest Damper unless they are doing very short sprints, like 100 meters. And those are men that are 6 foot 4 or so and 250 lbs. I'm a decent Indoor rower (regionally competitive). I went to one Orange Theory class and broke their 500m "record" easily. Now, I use Dampers that are lighter because I have a bad back right now. This might helps explain damper more for you. It's a very common mistake among those that don't row all the time. I used to do the same thing.
Please trust me on this. My indoor rowing club, Sub7, has most of the top women not only in the US, but also the world. The one woman in my club (from Eastern Europe) rowed a 6:40 something 2K and crushed the World Record. She's around 6 foot 3 and doesn't use the top damper settings.
https://darkhorserowing.com/understanding-the-magic-of-damper-settings-and-drag-factor/
Thanks so much for this advice...I usually put the damper at my home gym at 3-4 and I always focus on speed and my form (they have a mirror to check my posturing too)...this machine was at a gym near my work and was one of the fan ones—the only reason I set it up that high was bc I was trying to adjust it to the normal drag I feel on my gym’s machine, which I can tell by how it feels and my speed. (I was doing my 500m 15-20 seconds faster than I normally do on the machine I am used to). It was nowhere near a lift feel (and I’m a weakling in my arm lifts so I’m a lot more sensitive to that...
I copy these diary entries from my own notes and I make note for the sake of attempting to be consistent as I need to go to different gyms, it helps me remember how to configure the machines a bit more. I think this machine at this gym was not working correctly or doesn’t allow an extreme drag. Should I reduce anyway?
Thanks so much for the info though. EXTREMELY helpful and thoughtful
Yes, on Concept 2 machines (which are the gold standard of the flywheel type) for sure, damper setting is not "resistance". One doesn't increase the setting to make the workout harder; one pushes harder with the legs and uses good overall mechanics (distinct role for legs then back then arms in sequence) to accelerate the flywheel more quickly, which makes the workout harder. In effect, resistance is self-generated.
If someone can't get a good workout at a low damper setting (3-6), odds are strong that technique improvement would be useful. (In saying this, I can't speak to deficiencies of poorly maintained gym machines; this is true for adequately-maintained ones.) For all but specialized drills, it's common for women - including elite women like the US national team - to be in the 3s to 4s damper range, not much more.
I usually machine row at 3 to 3 and half, which feels the most "boat like" to me. I frequently machine row in Winter at facilities owned by a NCAA Div I varsity women's rowing team; we usually find the damper set closer to 4 on all the machines when we arrive there. I'm quite confident that's where they do the bulk of their machine rowing.
If you have a C2 at home, and use a different one at the gym, you can use the drag factor option on the monitor to find what drag factor you like at home, then set the gym machine at whatever damper setting gives you the same drag factor.
The only other machines I've used are WaterRowers, where I believe the water fill is what's controlling the "boat feel", in addition to the technique issues, but I'm not expert about those.
When you say you "focus on speed and form", I hope that speed means meters per minute (or pace, minutes per 500m being the usual split), and not focus on increasing strokes per minute. The highest stroke rating (strokes per minute) is something I see I lot of gym-goers try to maximize, but power per stroke (better measured by the pace if no watts display) is a more useful thing to pursue for fitness benefits . . . let alone boat speed.
Happy rowing!
Thanks for all the great info and links and sorry for using the wrong terminology.
This month, I found via heart rate monitoring (and how sweaty I got) that I got my best workout on a 3-4 setting, so that’s why I’ve been choosing it at my local gym near my home. It’s good to know more of the technical info from you to back up using this setting. It doesn’t feel like I’m lifting in my arms and I have researched form (and monitored it in the gym). I’m also feeling the work and burn in the legs that transitioned to my core and then arms, but I’ll keep working to perfect my form from the info you provided.
To calibrate the new machine yesterday, I essentially found the setting in which 10 rows produced the the most comparable distance to my usual row machine (in the lower settings, I was measuring much longer rows—which seemed off)...
I generally don’t focus too greatly on the total time it takes me to row a certain distance, I focus a lot more on the number of strokes and the distance I’m getting on each stroke (I guess you wouldn’t really call that speed). I’m finding I’m doing this Bc I’m not utilizing and working my arms enough—so I’m trying to better use them and achieve less strokes per 500 meter splits. Naturally, getting more distance out of the stroke is giving me a lower total time to get to particular distances. I also use the estimated time per 500m metric to understand if my rhythm and flow is constant...please feel free to comment if I’m doing this all wrong!
What you're doing isn't unreasonable, in terms of looking at distance per stroke, or strokes per distance. In one sense, getting a shorter split is the key goal, but people who do that by increasing stroke rating are going to run out of improvement potential much sooner (very soon!) than people who figure out how to do it by getting more out of each stroke, as you're doing.
If it's a Concept 2, consider using the power graph (the one that shows a graph of a single stroke) as a self-coaching tool. You want a smooth curve, somewhat like a hill with smooth slopes up and down (no dips or divots in the slopes). Some coaches like the up-slope to be similar to the down-slope; others like a steeper up-slope (as steep as practical), so the hill seems shifted toward the left. Dips in the smooth slope tend to be points where the power transfer from (say) legs to back, or back to arms, are not as sequential-but-integrated as they should be. Because the graph lags your body a bit, it can be harder to figure exactly what the problem is, but it can help you recognize that there is one.
Another good self-coaching feedback point is a feeling of suspension: From the moment your feet press down to start the drive, you should feel a very small decompression of your glutes against the seat as your weight becomes suspended between the foot-stretcher and handle, and it should be possible to hang onto that slight decompression all the way through to the nanosecond before you reverse into the recovery phase.
You keep mentioning using your arms, but I'm hoping that your key focus is getting (and increasing) leg power right off the catch . . . I'm sure you realize that legs are the main power source, followed by back, and the arms are relatively smaller contributors. To me (and this is subjective), arms feels like it's more about acceleration than pure power. Getting your arms away quickly on the recovery will tend to give you a bit of "free" split improvement, too, by not giving the flywheel as much chance to slow down. (It isn't cheating because, within certain parameters, it will also be a good thing to do in a boat.)
It sounds like you're doing fine. You're probably faster than I am.
Great info. I don’t have access to the Concept 2, but if I keep enjoying the rowing maybe I’ll ask for one for Xmas! I know when I first started I was making the mistake of really pulling with my arms at first and not my legs. I likely set the machine too high and it didn’t feel very fluid. I watched some videos on form and worked a little bit slowly to separate leg and arm movements. I’ll focus on how my glutes are hitting in transition to try to validate as suggested. I do feel what you’re describing in the legs (I’ve been a runner who does a lot of leg weight training for years so I feel like I have decent strength in my legs). I think from watching my form when doing it (my gym has a mirror and I had someone video) is that I’m still not nailing the form for the arms and core. I noticed I’m not leaning back (keeping my back perpendicular to the ground) —I’m assuming this doesn’t work my core as much, and I’m also pulling the bar too high on my chest (treating it more like a lift). When I practice a bit on the arm movements before I start a row, I think I’m doing it more properly and my stroke is getting longer Bc I’m leaning back more in the arms. I’ll be sure to keep asking questions though!
Do you wear something on your hands as you row? I’m getting blisters—is that an indication I’m doing something wrong? Would wearing lift gloves be ok?
And I’m nowhere near you ! But I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out as a newbie!0 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »25 min of lifting for my entire body
10 min of ab/core exercises on the floor
10 min warm up - 1 mile run
60 min ride on exercise bike doing random hills at a high resistance
9 min 4x500 row at highest resistance with 30 second rests in between-hard as possible
8 min 2 reps x 60 seconds of burpees, side lunges, jump lunges, and mountain climbers
Workout time: 152 minutes
I had a ton of energy today and just wanted to keep going but forced a stop Bc I want to go hard again tomorrow and run more to get my knee back. The guy next to me raced me in my rows and I beat him—but it pushed us both harder and was a lot of fun...
Please be careful with that. Ann might be able to chime in as well, but most, even men, should never ever use the highest Damper setting (what most know as resistance). Depending on the machine, it should not feel like you're weight lifting. Inevitably, you will injure your back. I use very low settings. It's a cardio machine, not a weight lifting machine. Also remember from physics class that Power equals force times velocity. It's about how fast your drive is as much as it is your force (from the Damper setting being higher).
Even world record holder rowers never use the highest Damper unless they are doing very short sprints, like 100 meters. And those are men that are 6 foot 4 or so and 250 lbs. I'm a decent Indoor rower (regionally competitive). I went to one Orange Theory class and broke their 500m "record" easily. Now, I use Dampers that are lighter because I have a bad back right now. This might helps explain damper more for you. It's a very common mistake among those that don't row all the time. I used to do the same thing.
Please trust me on this. My indoor rowing club, Sub7, has most of the top women not only in the US, but also the world. The one woman in my club (from Eastern Europe) rowed a 6:40 something 2K and crushed the World Record. She's around 6 foot 3 and doesn't use the top damper settings.
https://darkhorserowing.com/understanding-the-magic-of-damper-settings-and-drag-factor/
Thanks so much for this advice...I usually put the damper at my home gym at 3-4 and I always focus on speed and my form (they have a mirror to check my posturing too)...this machine was at a gym near my work and was one of the fan ones—the only reason I set it up that high was bc I was trying to adjust it to the normal drag I feel on my gym’s machine, which I can tell by how it feels and my speed. (I was doing my 500m 15-20 seconds faster than I normally do on the machine I am used to). It was nowhere near a lift feel (and I’m a weakling in my arm lifts so I’m a lot more sensitive to that...
I copy these diary entries from my own notes and I make note for the sake of attempting to be consistent as I need to go to different gyms, it helps me remember how to configure the machines a bit more. I think this machine at this gym was not working correctly or doesn’t allow an extreme drag. Should I reduce anyway?
Thanks so much for the info though. EXTREMELY helpful and thoughtful
Yes, on Concept 2 machines (which are the gold standard of the flywheel type) for sure, damper setting is not "resistance". One doesn't increase the setting to make the workout harder; one pushes harder with the legs and uses good overall mechanics (distinct role for legs then back then arms in sequence) to accelerate the flywheel more quickly, which makes the workout harder. In effect, resistance is self-generated.
If someone can't get a good workout at a low damper setting (3-6), odds are strong that technique improvement would be useful. (In saying this, I can't speak to deficiencies of poorly maintained gym machines; this is true for adequately-maintained ones.) For all but specialized drills, it's common for women - including elite women like the US national team - to be in the 3s to 4s damper range, not much more.
I usually machine row at 3 to 3 and half, which feels the most "boat like" to me. I frequently machine row in Winter at facilities owned by a NCAA Div I varsity women's rowing team; we usually find the damper set closer to 4 on all the machines when we arrive there. I'm quite confident that's where they do the bulk of their machine rowing.
If you have a C2 at home, and use a different one at the gym, you can use the drag factor option on the monitor to find what drag factor you like at home, then set the gym machine at whatever damper setting gives you the same drag factor.
The only other machines I've used are WaterRowers, where I believe the water fill is what's controlling the "boat feel", in addition to the technique issues, but I'm not expert about those.
When you say you "focus on speed and form", I hope that speed means meters per minute (or pace, minutes per 500m being the usual split), and not focus on increasing strokes per minute. The highest stroke rating (strokes per minute) is something I see I lot of gym-goers try to maximize, but power per stroke (better measured by the pace if no watts display) is a more useful thing to pursue for fitness benefits . . . let alone boat speed.
Happy rowing!
Thanks for all the great info and links and sorry for using the wrong terminology.
This month, I found via heart rate monitoring (and how sweaty I got) that I got my best workout on a 3-4 setting, so that’s why I’ve been choosing it at my local gym near my home. It’s good to know more of the technical info from you to back up using this setting. It doesn’t feel like I’m lifting in my arms and I have researched form (and monitored it in the gym). I’m also feeling the work and burn in the legs that transitioned to my core and then arms, but I’ll keep working to perfect my form from the info you provided.
To calibrate the new machine yesterday, I essentially found the setting in which 10 rows produced the the most comparable distance to my usual row machine (in the lower settings, I was measuring much longer rows—which seemed off)...
I generally don’t focus too greatly on the total time it takes me to row a certain distance, I focus a lot more on the number of strokes and the distance I’m getting on each stroke (I guess you wouldn’t really call that speed). I’m finding I’m doing this Bc I’m not utilizing and working my arms enough—so I’m trying to better use them and achieve less strokes per 500 meter splits. Naturally, getting more distance out of the stroke is giving me a lower total time to get to particular distances. I also use the estimated time per 500m metric to understand if my rhythm and flow is constant...please feel free to comment if I’m doing this all wrong!
What you're doing isn't unreasonable, in terms of looking at distance per stroke, or strokes per distance. In one sense, getting a shorter split is the key goal, but people who do that by increasing stroke rating are going to run out of improvement potential much sooner (very soon!) than people who figure out how to do it by getting more out of each stroke, as you're doing.
If it's a Concept 2, consider using the power graph (the one that shows a graph of a single stroke) as a self-coaching tool. You want a smooth curve, somewhat like a hill with smooth slopes up and down (no dips or divots in the slopes). Some coaches like the up-slope to be similar to the down-slope; others like a steeper up-slope (as steep as practical), so the hill seems shifted toward the left. Dips in the smooth slope tend to be points where the power transfer from (say) legs to back, or back to arms, are not as sequential-but-integrated as they should be. Because the graph lags your body a bit, it can be harder to figure exactly what the problem is, but it can help you recognize that there is one.
Another good self-coaching feedback point is a feeling of suspension: From the moment your feet press down to start the drive, you should feel a very small decompression of your glutes against the seat as your weight becomes suspended between the foot-stretcher and handle, and it should be possible to hang onto that slight decompression all the way through to the nanosecond before you reverse into the recovery phase.
You keep mentioning using your arms, but I'm hoping that your key focus is getting (and increasing) leg power right off the catch . . . I'm sure you realize that legs are the main power source, followed by back, and the arms are relatively smaller contributors. To me (and this is subjective), arms feels like it's more about acceleration than pure power. Getting your arms away quickly on the recovery will tend to give you a bit of "free" split improvement, too, by not giving the flywheel as much chance to slow down. (It isn't cheating because, within certain parameters, it will also be a good thing to do in a boat.)
It sounds like you're doing fine. You're probably faster than I am.
Great info. I don’t have access to the Concept 2, but if I keep enjoying the rowing maybe I’ll ask for one for Xmas! I know when I first started I was making the mistake of really pulling with my arms at first and not my legs. I likely set the machine too high and it didn’t feel very fluid. I watched some videos on form and worked a little bit slowly to separate leg and arm movements. I’ll focus on how my glutes are hitting in transition to try to validate as suggested. I do feel what you’re describing in the legs (I’ve been a runner who does a lot of leg weight training for years so I feel like I have decent strength in my legs). I think from watching my form when doing it (my gym has a mirror and I had someone video) is that I’m still not nailing the form for the arms and core. I noticed I’m not leaning back (keeping my back perpendicular to the ground) —I’m assuming this doesn’t work my core as much, and I’m also pulling the bar too high on my chest (treating it more like a lift). When I practice a bit on the arm movements before I start a row, I think I’m doing it more properly and my stroke is getting longer Bc I’m leaning back more in the arms. I’ll be sure to keep asking questions though!
Do you wear something on your hands as you row? I’m getting blisters—is that an indication I’m doing something wrong? Would wearing lift gloves be ok?
And I’m nowhere near you ! But I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out as a newbie!
Have you gotten a chance to look at the how to videos on Concept 2's website with regards to form? While I now realize that you don't have a concept 2, the motions are essentially the same. Their "common errors" page will also probably be really helpful - https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos/common-errors They address multiple things you've mentioned if I'm remembering correctly. I suspect the pick drill would also be really useful so you can isolate parts of the stroke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrPIyQ1mkF0
I personally don't wear gloves rowing on an erg or on the water but I also have skin that defaults to calluses as opposed to blisters (the same was true when I rock climbed competitively as a teenager). I can't really think of a reason not to use them on a rowing machine. Unless you have a death grip on the handle, I suspect it's really just par for the course. By and large, blisters are very common among rowers. That I don't get them is odd (but great). There are a lot of ways that people deal with it, as shown by a google search (or a reddit search for that matter - I don't have reddit but occasionally I'll look at a few of their forums).2 -
@pierinifitness I think you’re right. Just thought of a quote, “if you train to failure you train to fail”. Once in a while going to failure is a good thing but if done everyday probably not, no matter how much rest between sets.2
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I wanted to average 15,000 steps a day for July. This called for 20,000 steps yesterday. I achieved this. I had my phone switched off for about 3,000 steps, so I probably ended up doing 23,000. (I got off on my commute way before my station to get a few extra en route home, which I needed.)
The operation was a success. I got 465,420 logged steps for July.4 -
@ lg013 - you can certainly add me but I don't log any longer (been on maintenance for around 9 years). Great advice from Ann and Aoyoke above. What I find is that other machines are rough on the hands. I never get blisters from the Concept2 but other machines sometimes have ripped rubber or torn handles and that's rough on hands. Like Aoyoke mentioned, I'd tend toward just work on loosening your grip. Should be thumbs not wrapped with the four fingers forming a loose hook around the handle. Loose grips take a while to feel comfortable with. It's likely you're not feeling your abs enough because it's really a hip hinge movement on the transition from legs on the drive to using your core and then upper body. Agree with Ann 100% that arms, while involved, are more just finishing the acceleration that the legs begin. DarkHorse Rowing on YouTube has some great instructional videos.1
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7/31 pm
Core Strength
Compression Drills- 3 x 10 (30)
Back Bridge 3 x 30s (90s)
Pancake Stretch 3 x 30s (90s)
Meditate
8/1 am
Mobility
Animal Flow Daily 5
Strength
Handstand Pushup - GTG
*On a Yoga Block
5 x 3 (15)
Pull-ups - GTG
5 x 6 (30)
Yoga
Hatha Sun Salutation - 5 Rounds
Ashtanga Sun Salutation - 5 Rounds
Core Strength
Compression Drills- 3 x 10 (30)
Back Bridge 3 x 30s (90s)
Pancake Stretch 3 x 30s (90s)
Meditate
1 -
An hour long hike with my son. Short, but quite steep, so it felt like a good workout, and was beautiful and fun.3
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@pierinifitness gonna try this. Daily sub-maximal work (Grease the Groove) with a once a week high intensity session a la https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/al-kavadlo-20-pull-up-challenge.html
No failure, only feedback...1 -
A little more than 8k in my men's 4 race line up. Our starts felt really good and we did two 450m simulated pieces. The big thing is going to be making sure we actually settle. I, however, am not sitting stroke so there's only so much I can do. I might have a short chat with our stroke because part of the issue in this boat is that a faster stoke rate is making us slower. Actually what I'll do is just talk to our coach before the race and then he can have that conversation.2
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Yesterday was leg day with abs and stretching. I have nvited my niece - showed her all the leg machines. Today was an hour bike ride. I bought myself a kayak, but I need a roof rack, so I probably won’t add that to my workouts until the end of next week. I’m so excited to use it in the ponds around my house this fall!2
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@pierinifitness gonna try this. Daily sub-maximal work (Grease the Groove) with a once a week high intensity session a la https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/al-kavadlo-20-pull-up-challenge.html
No failure, only feedback...
That program aligns with what I've recently done. One of my "by summer goals" was to complete 100 pull-ups in 20 minutes, any which way I can. After playing around with different rep counts, I settled in on 3-3-2-2-1-1 like I previously mentioned to you. One minor variation is that I alternated rounds between pull-ups and chin-ups to get some bicep work in. Using that cadence, I got to 100 reps in 20:03 as my best time, missing my goal by 3 seconds.
So I decided to add that goal to my "by fall goals" except that I set additional detail of 5 rep minimum rounds. In other words, I need to complete 20 rounds of 5 reps in 20 minutes or less to get my goal. The way I'm approaching it is 5 rep rounds every 2 minutes for starters and after successfully getting all rounds of 5 reps in, start reducing the time interval by 5 seconds a workout. I got 20 rounds in a couple weeks ago every 2:00 but then took a time out because I was concentrating on a fun run just completed. My next workout will again repeat the 2:00 time interval and then I'll start working my time interval down to an eventual goal of 1:00 per round and that'll give me my 100 reps in 20 minutes. It's a long haul but will work based on my past experiences taking a similar approach with other time-based workouts.
I think 5 days a week is overkill and if I read this new workout right, it's not a 5-day a week thing. There's something about being fresh that helps with volume performance.
Anyway, I'm privately cheering for you and will be following your updated journey.
1 -
2 mile run
barbell squats 125 lb
lateral raises
crunches
hamstring curls 160 lbs
hip adduction 130 lbs
hip abduction 130 lbs
Quadriceps 100 lbs
Calf machine 90- 100 lbs
2 -
Today is a 5 mile run followed by abs.3
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Thirty minute elliptical and then a shoulder workout. Tonight I am doing some outdoor construction so plenty of free exercise2
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90 minutes bouldering. I think it was an OK session - they had reset all the routes, so I had no reference points.
I dropped my mobile en route home, and the screen smashed. That is a little annoying.4 -
Guess it's progress because I almost forgot today was a hard interval day. IMO, when you're not overthinking training and worrying in advance about hard days, that's a good thing.
Today was 8' X 4 reps on the rower with 3 minute breaks. HR was dropping really nice after each one (just what you want to see). Struggled to hold pace on the last two and pace fell off, but HR/work increased, so that's fine. Just pushed a bit too hard early.
I try not to overanalyze these workouts but I looked at my ErgData Log just now.
Here was the same workout on 7/11 - 2:07.3 Avg Pace / 25 SPM / 175 HR
8/1 - 2:05.5 Avg Pace / 24 SPM / 169 HR
So that's a really nice improvement over 3 or so weeks.
@ Ann - appreciate the compliment. Yes, sometimes training is about what you don't do not just what you do. I've made so many mistakes in my training that I finally learned the hard way that going at it every day hard isn't sustainable, just like Pierre mentioned above. On a six day week, at my age, I find two days hard is sustainable and the rest aerobic work. Also, sorry about your incident with the deer. I'm sure that must have been very hard for you!
2 -
Thursday
30.min session with my trainer and her bosu ball working full body but especially targeting those little stabilising muscles
5/3/1 cycle 3 week 2 deadlifts plus
5x10@55kg sumo deadlifts
3x10@40kg standing calf raise
3x10 single leg push down
3x10@16kg straight leg kb deadlifts
Pushed the tank loaded with 40kg
Then attempted box jumps, these have always beaten me, but today I finally managed them.
30min treadmill workout, ramped the incline up and then did sprint intervals.
45 min circuit class
2 mile walk home along the river.1 -
pierinifitness wrote: »@pierinifitness gonna try this. Daily sub-maximal work (Grease the Groove) with a once a week high intensity session a la https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/al-kavadlo-20-pull-up-challenge.html
No failure, only feedback...
That program aligns with what I've recently done. One of my "by summer goals" was to complete 100 pull-ups in 20 minutes, any which way I can. After playing around with different rep counts, I settled in on 3-3-2-2-1-1 like I previously mentioned to you. One minor variation is that I alternated rounds between pull-ups and chin-ups to get some bicep work in. Using that cadence, I got to 100 reps in 20:03 as my best time, missing my goal by 3 seconds.
So I decided to add that goal to my "by fall goals" except that I set additional detail of 5 rep minimum rounds. In other words, I need to complete 20 rounds of 5 reps in 20 minutes or less to get my goal. The way I'm approaching it is 5 rep rounds every 2 minutes for starters and after successfully getting all rounds of 5 reps in, start reducing the time interval by 5 seconds a workout. I got 20 rounds in a couple weeks ago every 2:00 but then took a time out because I was concentrating on a fun run just completed. My next workout will again repeat the 2:00 time interval and then I'll start working my time interval down to an eventual goal of 1:00 per round and that'll give me my 100 reps in 20 minutes. It's a long haul but will work based on my past experiences taking a similar approach with other time-based workouts.
I think 5 days a week is overkill and if I read this new workout right, it's not a 5-day a week thing. There's something about being fresh that helps with volume performance.
Anyway, I'm privately cheering for you and will be following your updated journey.
No no this would be once a week. The other 4 days are the sub-max grease the groove workouts...0 -
Addendum: ~8k steps because of some public transportation disruptions caused by a car accident on a bridge blocking at least one lane of traffic (apparently a car drove into a drainage channel? or something). Somehow I was only 6 min late to my therapy appointment.2
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8/1/2019 - a complete rest day during this week of rest and recovery. A little ants in my pants but not enough to make me want to do anything other than enjoy the week.2
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Back at spin class (via rental car ), during which I accidentally tapped "row" on my Garmin instead of "Bike Indoor", and didn't realize it for a few minutes, because I was using my HR on the bike's monitor.
Apparently, my indoor biking stroke rating averages 1spm, but goes as high as 33spm, and averages 7m per stroke. My moving splits are pretty fab, at 1:37/500m, but if you count all the (?!?!?) non-moving time, the average is a lamentable 19:47/500m. And it produced this totally fabulous map of my "row" (presumably without benefit of GPS, since I was indoors):
2 -
Back at spin class (via rental car ), during which I accidentally tapped "row" on my Garmin instead of "Bike Indoor", and didn't realize it for a few minutes, because I was using my HR on the bike's monitor.
Apparently, my indoor biking stroke rating averages 1spm, but goes as high as 33spm, and averages 7m per stroke. My moving splits are pretty fab, at 1:37/500m, but if you count all the (?!?!?) non-moving time, the average is a lamentable 19:47/500m. And it produced this totally fabulous map of my "row" (presumably without benefit of GPS, since I was indoors):
That split!
It's funny because I do the exact opposite on a very regular basis. I set my Garmin to record rowing and accidently have it set to "bike indoor". In my case it's almost always an issue of going through the motions without looking at my watch because I'm typically like, "oh crap I was going to do that but I have a shell on my shoulder now!"3 -
Was only 96* in the garage today but the humidity was killer. Could of definitely pusehed some more weight if I would have had a snack a little closer to my workout time.
4 -
Today I rode my indoor bike for an hour and played Minecraft and then went for a swim. In the morning I'm going to run a trail and aiming for a 5 mile loop.4
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