Coronavirus prep
Replies
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CupcakeCrusoe wrote: »I'm a little concerned about food.
I've heard that meat processing plants are having a really hard time keeping up production, because of course they are. I can go without meat, but if meat processing plants are having a hard time, I imagine all food production is having a hard time, and I'm worried. I don't know what if anything I can do, besides try to garden, but even then, I definitely can't produce enough to feed my family.
I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
The issue with meat right now is that the major processing facilities are dealing with outbreaks. I believe the affect on food production will depend on how centralized the production of each item is, where those facilities are located, and how proactive the company is about safeguarding their workers and how crowded with employees those facilities typically are.
Unfortunately it seems commercial meat production in the US is quite centralized and required a lot of people in those buildings. So a couple of facilities go down and everyone feels it.
When the whole situation first started in my corner of the world mid-March, there was definitely a temporary shortage of fresh meat products. It made sense because everyone was suddenly hoarding, and it took the production chain from slaughterhouses to packaging some time to recover and amp up production of consumer goods. The same thing would of course happen again if a big production facility had to be quarantined and closed.1 -
Things are looking promising here. It has been a few days since the last new case. 2-4 cases daily, all are either children who are already at the hospital with their sick parents or import drivers who test positive at the border before entering the country (but mostly drivers).
Most things are open now under strict sanitation and distancing rules (even non-essentials). There aren't any plans to open gathering places yet (churches, mosques, wedding venues, clubs...etc). Restaurants are all open for delivery and pickup. Almost half the provinces are almost back to life as usual and can drive freely. The rest can drive but with restrictions. Cars with an even plate number drive one day, and cars with an odd number drive the next. No more than 2 people in one car. Public transport is now also open at 30% capacity.
People are...well... people. They're not distancing as much as they should be. It's Ramadan and they're flooding to buy food without any regard for safety. Some places are better organized than others - we've been buying and freezing bread once every 10 or so days to avoid crowds at bread bakeries and buying our vegetables at the grocery store (more expensive) because produce stores are less organized. I used to get upset at people, but I feel less upset now, probably because it's looking good right now. I have resigned to "people are people, and will keep doing what people do"3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »I'm pretty concerned about this whole food chain thing - and not just meat. I would say to everyone, stock up on protein powder, pasta or wheat, nuts, beans, whatever protein sources you see at the store. Canned vegetables and fruits, etc.
I guess the government *could* deploy the National Guard or military to run the factories if it comes to that. Let's pray it doesn't.
What's the difference between stocking up and hording.
The national guard, etc can not run slaughter houses. Farmers have started killing pigs at birth, crushing fertilized eggs and dumping milk in some areas.
One starts with an "s", the other starts with an "h".?
Being 69 and from the middle south when I was a kid it was only the city slickers/liberals that lived out a grocery store but times have changed. There are no more hog killings, 3 acre gardens (truck patches) and few people kill their own beef any more.
Prepping for a pandemic like we are in now was just a way of like for some 50-100 years ago. Come winter you had up your fire wood, the pork was hanging in the smoke house and the garden was in the food cellar. The live cows and chickens provided fresh dairy products and eggs. By the way it has been hard to find baby chicks locally because of people preparing to eat during this pandemic.
https://nbcnews.com/news/world/u-n-warns-hunger-pandemic-amid-threats-coronavirus-economic-downturn-n1189326
We are told millions will die from lack of food in 2020 around the world and this pandemic will just increase those numbers. Much of the food chain in the USA depends on non USA citizens brought to the USA and living in conditions ripe for COVID-19 break-outs. Holes are already appearing in our "just in time" food supply chain as noted in the NBC story above. For some countries the locust plague is of more concern at this point than COVID-19. Many readers may never had parents that lived through the Great Depression so they may not know to stock up to prevent sickness that can lead to death.
We already know most healthy people have had or will have COVID-19 and never know it. Good health is really the only way to prep to prevent death from COVID-19 but isolation of those with poor health is a must. The rest of us will have to work to keep food production happening and caring for the sick.
Fresh and frozen pork can be hauled 2000-4000 miles. Live hogs can not be hauled 4000 miles to a slaughter house for processing. The hogs and slaughter houses are not all located down town NYC hence a supply chain concern. Most of us will come out of this pandemic alive but not all. Some nations may experience a near wipe-out in some areas.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »I'm pretty concerned about this whole food chain thing - and not just meat. I would say to everyone, stock up on protein powder, pasta or wheat, nuts, beans, whatever protein sources you see at the store. Canned vegetables and fruits, etc.
I guess the government *could* deploy the National Guard or military to run the factories if it comes to that. Let's pray it doesn't.
What's the difference between stocking up and hording.
The national guard, etc can not run slaughter houses. Farmers have started killing pigs at birth, crushing fertilized eggs and dumping milk in some areas.
And Publix grocery chain (and perhaps others) is buying farm products that would otherwise be destroyed, and donating them to Feeding America.
A core problem is largely that huge amounts of food normally go into institutional supply chains (for restaurants, schools, etc.) in bulk packaging. While there are efforts to retool the supply chains for consumer-type packaging, that takes time. Farmers can't instantly switch to another distribution chain; they don't normally have those business connections. Many won't have any way to donate locally given the volume they have, for similar reasons. Meanwhile, chickens keep laying, meat animals keep putting on weight, cows keep lactating and that milk needs to be removed. So, output is dumped.
Yeah, that's kind of horrifying, but lets don't leave the impression that this is a simple matter of cruelty or bad behavior, let alone an intentional attempt to create shortages. Mostly, we have a lot of humans doing the best they're able, in really difficult and complicated circumstances.
And it has nothing to do with stocking up or hoarding.
I'd say: "Stocking up" is buying a bit extra of things you will need and use within a reasonable time period, being mindful that others rely on the same supply chains. "Hoarding" is buying more than you will reasonably need or use relatively soon, ignoring others needs, either because of something like fear and anxiety (which is unfortunate, but somewhat understandable), or with a hope of profiting financially by cynically creating/exploiting shortages and benefiting from others' desperation in the face of short supply (which is IMO objectively evil).
Squishy definition? Yes. Facile? Maybe. Close enough for gubmint work.13 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.3 -
The only chronic shortage I am seeing here is powdered milk. My local Pig has received exactly one shipment of it in the last 2 months. I don't normally use it but have been keeping a sourdough starter and want to make English muffins. All recipes I have call for powdered milk. Both regular and evaporated add too much moisture to the dough. I have buttermilk powder but think it might be too rich.
This is especially ironic since area farmers are dumping milk because the demand has gone way down with institutions like schools and restaurants closed. The powdered milk manufacturers cannot keep up with demand but they don't have the facilities to cope with excess supply.
That seems like something you could order online (of course, it might be pricier). I haven't been on Amazon for physical goods since they started restricting shipments, but I would think a basic food like that would still be shipping. Or you could try a specialty site. I'm pretty sure King Arthur Flour has powdered milk since, as you note, it's often used in baking. Or maybe Bob's Red Mill. I'm sure there are others. Those just happen to be two I have used.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Things are looking promising here. It has been a few days since the last new case. 2-4 cases daily, all are either children who are already at the hospital with their sick parents or import drivers who test positive at the border before entering the country (but mostly drivers).
Most things are open now under strict sanitation and distancing rules (even non-essentials). There aren't any plans to open gathering places yet (churches, mosques, wedding venues, clubs...etc). Restaurants are all open for delivery and pickup. Almost half the provinces are almost back to life as usual and can drive freely. The rest can drive but with restrictions. Cars with an even plate number drive one day, and cars with an odd number drive the next. No more than 2 people in one car. Public transport is now also open at 30% capacity.
People are...well... people. They're not distancing as much as they should be. It's Ramadan and they're flooding to buy food without any regard for safety. Some places are better organized than others - we've been buying and freezing bread once every 10 or so days to avoid crowds at bread bakeries and buying our vegetables at the grocery store (more expensive) because produce stores are less organized. I used to get upset at people, but I feel less upset now, probably because it's looking good right now. I have resigned to "people are people, and will keep doing what people do"
This is what concerns me. I think we could reasonably safely open up a lot of businesses, if people were just capable of continuing to obey social distancing advisories. They had a piece on "60 Minutes" yesterday of an automobile plant that has retooled to produce ventilators, and they have erected plastic barriers between work stations, everyone was wearing masks, and they had smart watches that buzzed if they got within six feet of another smart watch (also storing data on what watches they were near, for future contact tracing if necessary). And the company is doing all that because people are people, and if you don't have systems in place to stop them, they're going to go back to their old ways of swapping germs and not washing their hands.13 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.
I suspect it's relevant that the distilleries are set up to make food-grade alcohol, and are kind of shoe-stringing some of the hand sanitizer production, so maybe higher cost of staffing/production. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know my local** was struggling at first with sourcing things like suitable plastic bottles that they don't usually use, and I suspect they didn't have great equipment for efficiently fillng such bottles, etc.
** Which is selling 2 oz bottles for $2, not sure about prices for larger, but they have gallons - they said that's pricing approximately at cost, and - knowing them - I expect that's true. At first, they had people bring their own plastic bottles, which they'd sanitize, fill, then re-sanitize before giving back - not exactly efficient industrial scale processes.
They've now sourced their own bottles, but I suspect at higher unit cost than Purell pays, and I assume the production process is still not hyper-efficient, either. 1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.
I suspect it's relevant that the distilleries are set up to make food-grade alcohol, and are kind of shoe-stringing some of the hand sanitizer production, so maybe higher cost of staffing/production. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know my local** was struggling at first with sourcing things like suitable plastic bottles that they don't usually use, and I suspect they didn't have great equipment for efficiently fillng such bottles, etc.
** Which is selling 2 oz bottles for $2, not sure about prices for larger, but they have gallons - they said that's pricing approximately at cost, and - knowing them - I expect that's true. At first, they had people bring their own plastic bottles, which they'd sanitize, fill, then re-sanitize before giving back - not exactly efficient industrial scale processes. They've now sourced their own bottles, but I suspect at higher unit cost than Purell pays, and I assume the production process is still not hyper-efficient, either.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply profiteering. I think most places are mainly trying to find a way to be a part of the solution and maybe keep a few employees on. Some of the distilleries I've heard about are donating their sanitizer to hospitals and other front-line facilities.
I just offered the numbers for anyone who was trying to work out their budget, who maybe didn't feel they could afford to pay above non-pandemic market prices.3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Things are looking promising here. It has been a few days since the last new case. 2-4 cases daily, all are either children who are already at the hospital with their sick parents or import drivers who test positive at the border before entering the country (but mostly drivers).
Most things are open now under strict sanitation and distancing rules (even non-essentials). There aren't any plans to open gathering places yet (churches, mosques, wedding venues, clubs...etc). Restaurants are all open for delivery and pickup. Almost half the provinces are almost back to life as usual and can drive freely. The rest can drive but with restrictions. Cars with an even plate number drive one day, and cars with an odd number drive the next. No more than 2 people in one car. Public transport is now also open at 30% capacity.
People are...well... people. They're not distancing as much as they should be. It's Ramadan and they're flooding to buy food without any regard for safety. Some places are better organized than others - we've been buying and freezing bread once every 10 or so days to avoid crowds at bread bakeries and buying our vegetables at the grocery store (more expensive) because produce stores are less organized. I used to get upset at people, but I feel less upset now, probably because it's looking good right now. I have resigned to "people are people, and will keep doing what people do"
Where is "here"? It would be really helpful if people would give their location when the give update posts.4 -
Several meat processing plants have closed down in Minnesota in the past week due to covid outbreaks among employees. Farmers have hogs ready for slaughter, but no place to send them. They are predicting shortages of pork products. Euthanizing animals. Crop farmers are just beginning to plow and plant. Farmers markets locally won’t start for a couple of weeks. Every small town has a butcher shop. I told my husband today that we need to check them out.4
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Since we have been told over and over to expect this pandemic to be a 6 to 18 month event stocking up can be a huge amount for some.
Hoarding to corner the market so one can resell at inflated pricing is criminal in most places.
https://cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-update-lockdowns-million-cases-2020-04-27/
I see from the news that the beaches in CA (USA) are filling up so clearly the shelter in place is ending across the country if it is ending in CA. We are shutting down and or downsizing hospitals due to the lack of patients.
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns I expect we are going to see a blip up of COVID-19 cases or worse. Once the hospitals across the country get over ran I can see people being willing to shelter in place maybe for 30 days again.
All across the USA churches are regaining the legal right to meet especially in the drive-in parking lot style of meetings. While that does not excite me safety wise we know it has the blessing from state and national levels of government.
Personally I am starting to looking at Conoravirus prep as learning to survive the next 1-5 years. If I am death then that will not matter but we know most in the USA will have COVID-19 and never know it. While the stock market may hit 35,000 this summer and retirement plans back on track I am not betting on that happening. Food and TP issues will end then the focus will be on how to move forward in a post COVID-19 world.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?14 -
Grants, New Mexico is going Rogue. This is very unfortunate as things have been shaping up and it looked very likely that we would begin a phase I re-open after May 15. This could very well end up extending stay at home orders...I'm hoping not, but.....
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-grants-new-mexico-mayor-martin-hicks-showdown-police-lockdown/3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
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janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I doubt light ever finds its way to where his head's at.7 -
We bought my husband’s great grandparents old house and it has a cinderblock “ham house” in the backyard... his grandfather used to raise pigs and they would process their own each year. When we first cleaned it out years ago we found the remnants of a ham sitting on the table inside! They said that the weather just isn’t cold enough to hang them through the winter like they used to. He remembers his great grandma hobbling back to the rather large chicken house with her cane in one hand, basket in the other to collect eggs (I used her nest boxes and feeders when I had chickens while living there)... a good acre for her garden (my children got a metal detector and were digging up her old pie plates that she would hang throughout). Oh to be able to go back and ask the important questions while she was still alive!
The farm down the road from us is now set up on Facebook and he said he posts updates on what he has available (I don’t have an account and haven’t remembered to search for it). He had looked into joining a coop type thing but said the logistics of it were a bit too much for him.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Things are looking promising here. It has been a few days since the last new case. 2-4 cases daily, all are either children who are already at the hospital with their sick parents or import drivers who test positive at the border before entering the country (but mostly drivers).
Most things are open now under strict sanitation and distancing rules (even non-essentials). There aren't any plans to open gathering places yet (churches, mosques, wedding venues, clubs...etc). Restaurants are all open for delivery and pickup. Almost half the provinces are almost back to life as usual and can drive freely. The rest can drive but with restrictions. Cars with an even plate number drive one day, and cars with an odd number drive the next. No more than 2 people in one car. Public transport is now also open at 30% capacity.
People are...well... people. They're not distancing as much as they should be. It's Ramadan and they're flooding to buy food without any regard for safety. Some places are better organized than others - we've been buying and freezing bread once every 10 or so days to avoid crowds at bread bakeries and buying our vegetables at the grocery store (more expensive) because produce stores are less organized. I used to get upset at people, but I feel less upset now, probably because it's looking good right now. I have resigned to "people are people, and will keep doing what people do"
Where is "here"? It would be really helpful if people would give their location when the give update posts.
Sorry. I gave my location more than once, I need to take into account that this thread is very long. Jordan. A small country, population a little over 10 million.6 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Grants, New Mexico is going Rogue. This is very unfortunate as things have been shaping up and it looked very likely that we would begin a phase I re-open after May 15. This could very well end up extending stay at home orders...I'm hoping not, but.....
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-grants-new-mexico-mayor-martin-hicks-showdown-police-lockdown/
We have Sheriffs of more than one county refusing to enforce the lockdown order here in Washington.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I doubt light ever finds its way to where his head's at.
Please do not give away my secret hiding place from the bat flu because we are limited on space and food.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
Even with the restrictions, nobody was authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns. This is the kind of rhetoric that is incredibly unhelpful. I don't even know how you got there. It's like some kind of fever dream fantasy.9 -
gradchica27 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »I went to the laundromat today and then to the store. I have plenty of food to last awhile, but was hoping they had toilet paper back in stock. This time, I decided to not try several stores as I know that if a store is out, they all are. No sense in putting myself at additional risk for no benefit whatsoever.
The toilet paper aisle here looks exactly the same as it has for well over a month now. What is surprising is that there are still 4 boxes of Kleenex remaining. It's a respiratory illness, so that doesn't make sense... anyway, no toilet paper and no paper towels either. And since some people didn't believe me last time, here's a photo for the skeptics:
Good grief!
If you get desperate enough to drive down here we’re starting to see normal supply in the outskirts of Memphis. I found both tp and paper towels at both Kroger and Walmart in Collierville. Still very low on cleaning products but I also managed to snag some bleach. This week’s shortage was meat - I guess there is a panic starting due to news about the plants closing, but chicken was entirely gone and other meat very scant.
@rheddmobile , we’re in the same neck of the woods! Husband struck out on TP at Costco and Target last week (paper towels available and even some hand sanitizer at Target!), but I found some tp at Kroger, so we’re good for a another few weeks! Target guy told him to come back at 7:45, but that was senior hours and we weren’t in dire need....maybe in a week I might have had to be “that woman”, but was happily spared that. At the beginning of the panic he found some in MS bc there was none here.
Costco was out of chicken—the meat guy said they were getting less in and it was gone by mid morning. They were also out of random produce, like strawberries. We’re trying not to shop that often, but it’s getting tough (we have 4 boys, so there’s a lot of eating happening here!) when Walmart or Kroger pickup/delivery is “out” of 10 of your 25 items (and often if you just walk in, boom, whole shelf full of frozen spinach/half and half they said they were out of) or they won’t sell you any tp unless you physically go in and get it.
@gradchica27 I didn’t realize we were neighbors! I’ve had the same problem with pickup/delivery from Kroger - they say they are out of half my list, then when my husband goes in the shelves are full. We’ve been doing a pickup order and then he goes in for the rest of the stuff, so at least the time he spends in the store is minimized.
I was at a certain world famous bbq joint yesterday and waited almost an hour in the drive through, after calling ahead to place my order. No mask on the girl at the window and they made me take a little plastic tray and pen to sign my check. So I have essentially shaken hands with everyone in Collierville!10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
Even with the restrictions, nobody was authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns. This is the kind of rhetoric that is incredibly unhelpful. I don't even know how you got there. It's like some kind of fever dream fantasy.
Have you been reading about the mental health issues related to COVID-19? I just see an undercurrent that is dangerous for the safety of law officers. Some are losing everything and we know alcohol sales are up and gun sales are up. Did you read Cwolfmann's link over the number of COVID-19 deaths?
Law officers are starting to stand down over governors orders because they understand the time/risk factor on unproven restrictions is increasing. I think everyone posting here wants to do what is best and understand they are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later but want it to be much later.
We know with the schools closed it is causing some kids harm because they may not have a safe environment and food like when the schools were open. The schools will not be opening in 4 months from now if we do not get more COVID-19 cases behind us. Sweden may be proven wrong yet time will tell.
https://aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/sweden-avoids-full-lockdown-pm-insists-restrictions-continue-200420173945004.html
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GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
Even with the restrictions, nobody was authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns. This is the kind of rhetoric that is incredibly unhelpful. I don't even know how you got there. It's like some kind of fever dream fantasy.
Have you been reading about the mental health issues related to COVID-19? I just see an undercurrent that is dangerous for the safety of law officers. Some are losing everything and we know alcohol sales are up and gun sales are up. Did you read Cwolfmann's link over the number of COVID-19 deaths?
Law officers are starting to stand down over governors orders because they understand the time/risk factor on unproven restrictions is increasing. I think everyone posting here wants to do what is best and understand they are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later but want it to be much later.
We know with the schools closed it is causing some kids harm because they may not have a safe environment and food like when the schools were open. The schools will not be opening in 4 months from now if we do not get more COVID-19 cases behind us. Sweden may be proven wrong yet time will tell.
https://aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/sweden-avoids-full-lockdown-pm-insists-restrictions-continue-200420173945004.html
Any police officer who willfully disregards a direct order simply because they think they know better should be fired and brought up on charges.10 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.
I suspect it's relevant that the distilleries are set up to make food-grade alcohol, and are kind of shoe-stringing some of the hand sanitizer production, so maybe higher cost of staffing/production. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know my local** was struggling at first with sourcing things like suitable plastic bottles that they don't usually use, and I suspect they didn't have great equipment for efficiently fillng such bottles, etc.
** Which is selling 2 oz bottles for $2, not sure about prices for larger, but they have gallons - they said that's pricing approximately at cost, and - knowing them - I expect that's true. At first, they had people bring their own plastic bottles, which they'd sanitize, fill, then re-sanitize before giving back - not exactly efficient industrial scale processes. They've now sourced their own bottles, but I suspect at higher unit cost than Purell pays, and I assume the production process is still not hyper-efficient, either.
The distillery near where I live is using the same bottles they normally use for whiskey, but just putting different labels on the for hand sanitizer.3 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.
I suspect it's relevant that the distilleries are set up to make food-grade alcohol, and are kind of shoe-stringing some of the hand sanitizer production, so maybe higher cost of staffing/production. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know my local** was struggling at first with sourcing things like suitable plastic bottles that they don't usually use, and I suspect they didn't have great equipment for efficiently fillng such bottles, etc.
** Which is selling 2 oz bottles for $2, not sure about prices for larger, but they have gallons - they said that's pricing approximately at cost, and - knowing them - I expect that's true. At first, they had people bring their own plastic bottles, which they'd sanitize, fill, then re-sanitize before giving back - not exactly efficient industrial scale processes. They've now sourced their own bottles, but I suspect at higher unit cost than Purell pays, and I assume the production process is still not hyper-efficient, either.
The distillery near where I live is using the same bottles they normally use for whiskey, but just putting different labels on the for hand sanitizer.
Mine never sold 2-oz bottles of liquor.
They may be using the old stock for some bigger size, but all they've mentioned is 2-oz and gallon; their spirits are sold in liters, and beer (it's also a brewery) in cans. 0 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Hand sanitizer: If you have a local craft distillery - one that usually makes vodka, whiskey, gin, etc. - check their FB/web page, or call to see if they have hand sanitizer. My local sells it in gallons, or 2oz, at about cost to make. I've read about places in other parts of the country doing similar things. Helps a local business, helps you.
Yes! There is a place nearby that changed from making whiskey to hand sanitizer. I heard they sell the bottle (32 oz., I think? I don't drink whiskey, so not exactly sure what the bottle size is) for $35. That may be a little expensive for that size of container, but not terrible. Also, they are new to making it and I'm sure materials went up in cost too... so probably is about right. They were supplying the nearest hospital as well and not sure if they were charging or how much. If not, that explains part of the cost too. Either way, $35 for about a liter isn't bad.
Local central IL distillery is selling hand sanitizer for $56.65 a gallon. Don't know where you're at but sounds high.
That's equivalent to 88 cents for the standard 2 oz. personal size container. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's hard to remember the "before times," especially since personal hand sanitizer was kind of a random purchase for me, not something I was buying regularly, but my best recollection is about $1.50 for a 2 oz. bottle. Of course, you normally expect a volume discount when you buy a large container.
And for the $35 dollar for a whiskey bottle from an earlier poster -- the "standard" whiskey bottle is a "fifth" (fifth of a gallon), so assuming that's what they're using, that's a little pricey -- about $2.73 per 2 oz.
I suspect it's relevant that the distilleries are set up to make food-grade alcohol, and are kind of shoe-stringing some of the hand sanitizer production, so maybe higher cost of staffing/production. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know my local** was struggling at first with sourcing things like suitable plastic bottles that they don't usually use, and I suspect they didn't have great equipment for efficiently fillng such bottles, etc.
** Which is selling 2 oz bottles for $2, not sure about prices for larger, but they have gallons - they said that's pricing approximately at cost, and - knowing them - I expect that's true. At first, they had people bring their own plastic bottles, which they'd sanitize, fill, then re-sanitize before giving back - not exactly efficient industrial scale processes. They've now sourced their own bottles, but I suspect at higher unit cost than Purell pays, and I assume the production process is still not hyper-efficient, either.
The distillery near where I live is using the same bottles they normally use for whiskey, but just putting different labels on the for hand sanitizer.
Mine never sold 2-oz bottles of liquor. They may be using the old stock for some bigger size, but all they've mentioned is 2-oz and gallon; their spirits are sold in liters, and beer (it's also a brewery) in cans.
I don't think this one has 2 oz bottles either. It's a bottle like what you would get for whiskey... IDK, a liter or something like that. As I said earlier, I don't drink and have no idea how many ounces are in a normal bottle of whiskey. And I haven't gone to buy any, this is just what my neighbor told me.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Things are looking promising here. It has been a few days since the last new case. 2-4 cases daily, all are either children who are already at the hospital with their sick parents or import drivers who test positive at the border before entering the country (but mostly drivers).
Most things are open now under strict sanitation and distancing rules (even non-essentials). There aren't any plans to open gathering places yet (churches, mosques, wedding venues, clubs...etc). Restaurants are all open for delivery and pickup. Almost half the provinces are almost back to life as usual and can drive freely. The rest can drive but with restrictions. Cars with an even plate number drive one day, and cars with an odd number drive the next. No more than 2 people in one car. Public transport is now also open at 30% capacity.
People are...well... people. They're not distancing as much as they should be. It's Ramadan and they're flooding to buy food without any regard for safety. Some places are better organized than others - we've been buying and freezing bread once every 10 or so days to avoid crowds at bread bakeries and buying our vegetables at the grocery store (more expensive) because produce stores are less organized. I used to get upset at people, but I feel less upset now, probably because it's looking good right now. I have resigned to "people are people, and will keep doing what people do"
This is what concerns me. I think we could reasonably safely open up a lot of businesses, if people were just capable of continuing to obey social distancing advisories. They had a piece on "60 Minutes" yesterday of an automobile plant that has retooled to produce ventilators, and they have erected plastic barriers between work stations, everyone was wearing masks, and they had smart watches that buzzed if they got within six feet of another smart watch (also storing data on what watches they were near, for future contact tracing if necessary). And the company is doing all that because people are people, and if you don't have systems in place to stop them, they're going to go back to their old ways of swapping germs and not washing their hands.
They are adding a mask requirement for indoor shopping and places where you can't maintain 6 ft of separation, but opening up some of the closed outdoor areas and then adding as new essential businesses "greenhouses, garden centers and nurseries" (many of which were already doing business through curbside and delivery, and Home Depot was open). "These stores must follow social distancing requirements and must require that employees and customers wear a face covering."
"Animal grooming services may also re-open," and "[r]etail stores not designated as non-essential businesses and operations may re-open to fulfill telephone and online orders through pick-up outside the store and delivery."
This seems reasonable to me. However, a politician downstate sued to prevent the order from applying to him, so clearly others disagree. I don't think a majority, and I get the impression the police here are enforcing the orders and concerned for their own safety in that they are on the front lines of having to deal with people who may have the virus and are not compliant. (Mostly enforcement is ticketing and breaking things up.)4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
Even with the restrictions, nobody was authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns. This is the kind of rhetoric that is incredibly unhelpful. I don't even know how you got there. It's like some kind of fever dream fantasy.
Have you been reading about the mental health issues related to COVID-19? I just see an undercurrent that is dangerous for the safety of law officers. Some are losing everything and we know alcohol sales are up and gun sales are up. Did you read Cwolfmann's link over the number of COVID-19 deaths?
Law officers are starting to stand down over governors orders because they understand the time/risk factor on unproven restrictions is increasing. I think everyone posting here wants to do what is best and understand they are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later but want it to be much later.
We know with the schools closed it is causing some kids harm because they may not have a safe environment and food like when the schools were open. The schools will not be opening in 4 months from now if we do not get more COVID-19 cases behind us. Sweden may be proven wrong yet time will tell.
https://aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/sweden-avoids-full-lockdown-pm-insists-restrictions-continue-200420173945004.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/27/dont-judge-swedens-light-touch-on-covid-19-yet-says-minister
"Stockholm authorities shut down five pubs and restaurants that failed to observe the recommendations this weekend, only allowing customers time to finish their food before obliging them to leave.
“This was a strong signal,” Linde said. “These are not voluntary measures. You are meant to follow them. We believe the best way for us is a combination of some binding regulations and clear advice to the public. As far as possible, we want to build on a strong, longstanding relationship of trust between authorities and the public.”
There is plenty of evidence that most people are falling in line, she said, citing a 96% fall in reservations at the country’s two most popular domestic holiday destinations after the government repeated its advice to stay at home over the Easter break. The country’s rate of infection is also showing signs of levelling off and the Public Health Agency estimates up to 20% of its population has contracted the virus.
Linde said she “would have been surprised if there had not been criticism” of the strategy, spearheaded by the country’s chief epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, who has described it as being not about creating “herd immunity” but containing the spread of the virus while preserving the capacity of the health service to respond.
Some of the country’s leading medical professors and academics have been fiercely critical of the decision not to follow much of the rest of Europe into strict lockdown, publishing open letters and petitions calling for an urgent change of course and highlighting a death toll which, at 2,194, is three times the per-million tally recorded in Denmark and Germany and more than six times that of Finland.
Linde said Sweden’s relatively high death toll was “certainly not part of the plan” but conceded that the exceptional number of deaths in care homes, which so far account for more than half of all the country’s deaths from the coronavirus, was “one area where we have failed”.
The government passed early binding legislation banning visits to care homes for elderly people, she said, “but still the virus got in and a lot of deaths have occurred. We don’t know why this is – perhaps because some homes did not observe regulations, perhaps because staff’s jobs were not secure so they felt they could not afford to take sick leave … We’re investigating.”
Worth noting that people take the actions they do in part because of hospital capacity. Sweden had/has enormous faith in its hospital capacity and medical care. I suspect many parts of the rural US does not have such faith, but if you all don't care, do what you want. Herd immunity seems not to apply as increasingly it seems no immunity.
The IL lawsuit I mentioned above was largely because downstate (well, some downstate) sees this as a Chicago metro problem, but Chicago is actually better off in terms of hospital capacity than some other parts of the state and at least some parts of Chicago have been tested a lot more (Chicago, of course, has huge income inequality which means you cannot generalize). Clearly denser areas are being hit harder in most cases, however.
That WA has counties not complying doesn't surprise me -- my dad and his wife live in WA (she is really careful, thank goodness, and demands that he be), but their county has only 39 cases and no deaths, and many eastern counties have fewer.
For comparison, my zip code (there are 164 zip codes in my county) has 468 cases now (we are by no means the highest). I gave a sq ft estimate before, but was wrong -- we are about 20 blocks (2.5 miles) east to west and about 12 blocks (1.5 miles) north to south, so 3.75 sq miles, meaning 125 cases per sq mile. I'm lucky, I can work from home, I have a back yard to garden in, I can walk or run and mostly keep a 6 ft distance, but I still am frustrated by what seems to be the subtext of some of this discussion -- who cares about people in cities, they deserve what they get. So sorry if I'm a bit offended by your "I guess no more lockdown, let's all go get the virus" take.6 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
With the lock down being effectively over in the USA where law enforcement are not authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns . . .
Dude, what on earth?
I noted I was only speaking about USA laws. The news article explains how states are removing more and more restraints on people. This will help prevent social unrest even if medically if it is a step backwards. No one knows what to do in these times.
Even with the restrictions, nobody was authorized to mow down unarmed citizens with machine guns. This is the kind of rhetoric that is incredibly unhelpful. I don't even know how you got there. It's like some kind of fever dream fantasy.
Have you been reading about the mental health issues related to COVID-19? I just see an undercurrent that is dangerous for the safety of law officers. Some are losing everything and we know alcohol sales are up and gun sales are up. Did you read Cwolfmann's link over the number of COVID-19 deaths?
Law officers are starting to stand down over governors orders because they understand the time/risk factor on unproven restrictions is increasing. I think everyone posting here wants to do what is best and understand they are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later but want it to be much later.
We know with the schools closed it is causing some kids harm because they may not have a safe environment and food like when the schools were open. The schools will not be opening in 4 months from now if we do not get more COVID-19 cases behind us. Sweden may be proven wrong yet time will tell.
https://aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/sweden-avoids-full-lockdown-pm-insists-restrictions-continue-200420173945004.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/27/dont-judge-swedens-light-touch-on-covid-19-yet-says-minister
I think it will be interesting to see the outcome. Their goal of not overloading the healthcare workers seems to be working so far. The thought is their blow back may be much less than that is expected when the USA opens up in the coming weeks but time will tell. Looks like we started phase #1 to reopen today.
https://cnn.com/interactive/2020/us/states-reopen-coronavirus-trnd/
Kentucky will begin phase one on April 27, which will include restarting diagnostic, radiology, non-urgent, in-person, office and ambulatory visits.
"We are also going to allow pre-aesthesia testing services to restart in preparation for the surgical ramp up," Beshear said.
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