Coronavirus prep

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  • ythannah
    ythannah Posts: 4,393 Member
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    But yesterday I shopped at a Whole Foods in an urbanized retail area where I had to park in a garage in the next block so I had to use the paper bags they require customers to use instead of reusable bags for now. I lost about five dollars worth of cut fruit when I got home and lifted the paper bags out of the car, splitting open the plastic container of fruit and spilling it on the street.

    Keep some elastic bands in your purse or vehicle to wrap around the container. One of our big grocery chains here (where we have always bagged our own purchases) will secure plastic clamshell packaging with an elastic to prevent accidental opening.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    Since we can not control the actions of others because there is nothing that can be said that will numerically change the minds of the pro and con mask people I try to make sure I act in a way that decreases my personal chance of even getting infected by the corona virus in the first place and that does not require others to wear a mask or not wear a mask by focusing on what I ingest.

    After coming to realization eating low carb or keto improved my health while eating the same number of calories it became clear to me there had to be more than ketone "magic" going on inside of my body. I found the below article concerning COVID-19 interesting since the microbiome creates the lions share of our immunity resources per some papers on the subject.

    https://theconversation.com/gut-reaction-how-the-gut-microbiome-may-influence-the-severity-of-covid-19-139094

    Trillions of micro-organisms that call your gastrointestinal tract home

    "The gut microbiome is the community of micro-organisms living inside the gastrointestinal tract, mostly in the large bowel. The microbiome contains bacteria, fungi (yeast), viruses and protozoa, all of which contribute to maintaining a balanced ecosystem and human health. These microbes collectively perform many beneficial functions, including educating the immune system......"

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 37,156 Member
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    corinasue1143 wrote: »
    About Trump, Tulsa, and corona.
    On June 19th, Tulsa county had reported 2070 corona cases since the pandemic started. Tulsa town spills out into other counties, but we report by county, and Tulsa town is mainly in Tulsa county. 721 of those cases were reported within the last 2 weeks, so an average of 51.5 people per day. 125 of those were reported on June 19th, 136 more were reported on June 20.

    6 people who came to Tulsa early to set up for the Trump rally tested positive for corona.

    How many Trump people took the virus home with them, and how many Tulsa people caught it from Trump people.

    Pictures show many people without masks and very little social distancing.

    Why shut down so many businesses to keep people from coming into direct contact with each other, then get together a group
    Of several thousand people in one building, sitting next to each other?

    Social distancing or not? If so, why? If not, why shut down business? Please help me understand.

    I say the same thing about a lot of gathering I'm seeing. Wearing masks helps, but it isn't 100%. All my races were cancelled or re-scheduled... that helps, but it needs to be everything. We did 2 months of a few things getting closed, called it a "shutdown" and then went on with "re-opening" a lot of things that were never really closed anyway. It's a half-way approach with some benefits to slow the spread, but not even close to enough to stop the virus. When I expressed this point months ago, many reminded me that the point never was to stop the spread. It was to slow the spread / flatten the curve to give the healthcare system sufficient time to prepare. Except our healthcare system is no better prepared than it was in Feb. and Mar. In fact, we see Florida has just about run out of ICU beds and they are seeing more new cases each day than the prior day. So flattening the curve failed and we really should have instead gone further to actually try to stop the spread.

    Without disagreeing in the slightest with what you're observing (just intending to continue the line of conversation), I feel like what I'm seeing here (Michigan) is a little more encouraging, in terms of overall trends.

    Here, greater Detroit was devastated and overwhelmed, but this began early in the US spread, so they were afflicted by many of the general supply problems, and the novelty was a big factor (i.e., public confusion, complete lack of medical experience with the disease locally and limited experience anywhere to draw on). To our collective shame, the impact in Michigan has been overwhelmingly greater for black and other minority Michiganders, partly but not exclusively because Detroit is majority minority.

    Things have calmed there, somewhat, now. Other big-ish Michigan cities had very challenging experience with the same factors (supplies, medical knowledge), but I don't believe other places were literally overwhelmed to the degree Detroit was.

    The governor acted fast and hard, relative to many others, and has stayed steady on the course. She's not perfect (who is?), but I appreciate the way she's been using coalitions of experts from various injuries to formulate industry-specific opening-up strategies, among other good moves. (For transparency: I'm not a member of her political party, or of its big opposite party. I'm normally a split-ticket voter, based on individual candidates/policies.)

    Individual humans reacted in various ways (including some (pick your own adjective) anti-shelter-in-place protestors).

    But there was a pretty big, visible positive response from individuals and business. The local hospital system (Lansing) made it super-easy to understand what they needed, and how to get it to them, and that included home-made reusable masks. Many people I know started making washable masks, by dozens and hundreds, and donating them. The high school robotics clubs quickly collaborated to start 3-D printing or otherwise contructing parts for respirators, face shields, and anything else they could get specs for. They made alliances with small manufacturers, in some cases, to make parts for the manufacturers to use in assembly. The robotics clubs, too, made it easy for the community to donate supplies they needed. Small manufacturing companies that make clothing or similar sewn products started making protective clothing very quickly. The auto industry (big here), in a variety of ways, was out ahead of any government entity requiring them to help All of this was happening in just the first few weeks.

    In total, I do feel that so far, with the exception of tragic early-victim greater Detroit, the "flattening the curve" approach has had some success here. I also feel like - despite a moderately high population of uncooperative individuals - most people were relatively compliant, and many people pitched in to help in a variety of ways, essentially however they could.

    On the economic front, there was relatively quick action, too.

    Though it took frustratingly long to get unemployment benefits flowing, especially to the newly eligible categories like independent contractors and such, it still seemed to happen earlier here than in some other states. Workers from other state departments were reallocated to help in some of those peaking functions. Community organizations geared up, and started forming new partnerships. Here in Lansing, the schools and the food bank worked together to use both's supply channels, the schools' kitchens, both's staffs, and the schools' buses to start delivering meals along with teaching material to students, and the food bank added grocery bags to the same buses for families. The YMCA started fund-raising specifically for food/meals that they put onto their buses and took out to distribution points: Many thousands of meals.

    All of that stuff gelled fast after things shut down, very soon after the schools closed. People dived in and just started doing. To me, that was heartening.

    These days, it's looking like the hospitals' supply chains are in better shape. Perfect? No. The businesses are starting to open up, which should deliver some economic benefits. Is it all logical, consistent across business categories, consistent compliance? No. But things are better organized than they were, by far.

    I'd also observe that "flattening the curve" has allowed more time for identifying treatment strategies, and for better science to emerge about risk scenarios and prevention strategies, which should also be a help moving forward. (When I talk about treatment strategies, I don't just mean drugs. I also mean practical knowledge about how and when to use oxygen, how and when to use ventilators, and I'm sure bunches of medical-practice matters I know nothing about personally. It seemed like chaos at first, but from how my medical-career friends are acting, it sounds like it's getting to the point where there are at least some general practice guidelines, even though far from perfect. Research will continue, and they'll continue changing practices.)

    Will Michigan get a second wave? Quite possibly. But if that happens, I think the governor will at least try to do the right thing (the legislature has been oppositional, so there've been court battles, with some wins in both her and their cases). On top of all that official-dom, there are a lot of community organizations and individuals who now know better how to backstop another shut-down.

    Part of my point was to say that I think it's good to keep in mind that different states and even different cities/counties in the US have dealt with this crisis in different ways, and it's (so far) had different results as well. While things aren't perfect here, I'm happy to be here, rather than in some of the other states.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,195 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    But yesterday I shopped at a Whole Foods in an urbanized retail area where I had to park in a garage in the next block so I had to use the paper bags they require customers to use instead of reusable bags for now. I lost about five dollars worth of cut fruit when I got home and lifted the paper bags out of the car, splitting open the plastic container of fruit and spilling it on the street.

    Keep some elastic bands in your purse or vehicle to wrap around the container. One of our big grocery chains here (where we have always bagged our own purchases) will secure plastic clamshell packaging with an elastic to prevent accidental opening.

    It wasn't a case of the lid popping open. The entire container split/cracked when it hit the pavement. Some of our stores around here have rubber bands for containers you fill yourself, but they don't normally do it for pre-filled containers that are sealed with an adhesive label with the weight and price. You can't do fill-it-yourself containers around here anymore, since COVID. No salad bars or olive bars or hot food bars, etc.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,195 Member
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Our state has directed no reusable grocey bags and all the stores have large signs reflecting this guidance. Going through the store a couple had their entire cart filled with stuff in reusable bags..

    Hopefully cashier tells them sorry can't check out.

    From a practical standpoint I don't see how that would help anything if the goods were already in the reusable bags (I'm assuming this is a store with scanners that customers use, since they had already put the food their bags -- I've never seen anybody packing the stuff into their bags if they're going to have to take them out to be rung up.)

    Tramsferring the goods to disposable bags just forces the store staff to handle them, increasing the risk of transferring germs. And if you're suggesting the customers be told to empty their bags and not buy them at all, how does that help anything? Not everything is packaged in a way that it could be disinfected to be resold, so the store would have to toss it, forcing the store to lose inventory and increase prices to make up for it. And for what could be disinfected, that also increases the store's costs (disinfecting solutions and staff time), so prices go up there as well for no practical benefit.

    There's no government mandate on reusable bags in my area, and stores are taking different approaches. Some say no reusable bags, others don't. I can't see the practical benefit of banning them, since the stores are disinfecting the carts between customers anyway.

    I use reusable bags where I'm allowed, for improved general food safety, since I have insulated reusable bags. No point of surviving COVID if I've died of food poisoning because my food is at room temperature (and summer heat) too long. Where they don't allow reusable bags, I usually just wheel the cart with the unbagged groceries out to the lot and put them into the reusable bags that I keep in my car.

    But yesterday I shopped at a Whole Foods in an urbanized retail area where I had to park in a garage in the next block so I had to use the paper bags they require customers to use instead of reusable bags for now. I lost about five dollars worth of cut fruit when I got home and lifted the paper bags out of the car, splitting open the plastic container of fruit and spilling it on the street.

    I just realized I left out an important element in that incident. When I lifted the paper bag out of the back of my car, the paper handle came away from the paper bag, which meant everything hit the street hard enough to crack the plastic container and spill pineapple onto the street. Sorry that wasn't clear.
  • lynn_glenmont
    lynn_glenmont Posts: 10,195 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Our state has directed no reusable grocey bags and all the stores have large signs reflecting this guidance. Going through the store a couple had their entire cart filled with stuff in reusable bags..

    Hopefully cashier tells them sorry can't check out.

    From a practical standpoint I don't see how that would help anything if the goods were already in the reusable bags (I'm assuming this is a store with scanners that customers use, since they had already put the food their bags -- I've never seen anybody packing the stuff into their bags if they're going to have to take them out to be rung up.)

    Tramsferring the goods to disposable bags just forces the store staff to handle them, increasing the risk of transferring germs. And if you're suggesting the customers be told to empty their bags and not buy them at all, how does that help anything? Not everything is packaged in a way that it could be disinfected to be resold, so the store would have to toss it, forcing the store to lose inventory and increase prices to make up for it. And for what could be disinfected, that also increases the store's costs (disinfecting solutions and staff time), so prices go up there as well for no practical benefit.

    There's no government mandate on reusable bags in my area, and stores are taking different approaches. Some say no reusable bags, others don't. I can't see the practical benefit of banning them, since the stores are disinfecting the carts between customers anyway.

    I use reusable bags where I'm allowed, for improved general food safety, since I have insulated reusable bags. No point of surviving COVID if I've died of food poisoning because my food is at room temperature (and summer heat) too long. Where they don't allow reusable bags, I usually just wheel the cart with the unbagged groceries out to the lot and put them into the reusable bags that I keep in my car.

    But yesterday I shopped at a Whole Foods in an urbanized retail area where I had to park in a garage in the next block so I had to use the paper bags they require customers to use instead of reusable bags for now. I lost about five dollars worth of cut fruit when I got home and lifted the paper bags out of the car, splitting open the plastic container of fruit and spilling it on the street.

    Nope these clowns had the items in tbe cloth bags pushing them around in s cart through the store. The store doesn't have a scan as you shop technology and they had way too many items for the 20 itme limit self checkput. They were going to have to take everything out of the bags place.on the conceyor cashier scan and put back in bags.

    Well, that's pretty stupid of them (the shoppers). It takes more time to take them back out of the bags at checkout then it would if the stuff was just loose in the car, and you shouldn't be asking cashiers to handle the bags you brought from home. I wouldn't use reusables under those circumstances even if the store allowed it; it's not considerate. But almost all the places I shop don't have a limit on the number of items for self-checkout, so I'm not really in that situation often.

    In any case, I would worry of being accused of shop-lifting if I put stuff directly in my bag if I weren't using a self-scanning device.

    I do remember being disturbed way back in early April -- my first grocery trip after things started shutting down around here, because I had held out for about three weeks between trips -- and my order was selected for a random audit when I got to checkout after using a scanner. The cashier, who was wearing gloves, opened my bags and re-scanned a few items, and it didn't bother me much even though I know gloves can transfer germs, because it at least made me feel like she was thinking about precautions. But she couldn't get it to work and had to call over a shift manager, who had no gloves, and was carrying a cellphone (which it's possible she had to do for work for some work-related app), which she looked at several times, touching the screen repeatedly.

    It kind of skeeved me out to have her pawing through my grocery bags. I know lots of customers, as well as the stocker, had probably touched all those items fairly recently, so realistically the added risk wasn't much. So I told myself I just needed to keep assuming that everyone, including myself, could have COVID-19, and washing my hands frequently, especially when dealing with food containers that had entered the house recently, and doing regular disinfection of frequently touched surfaces and kitchen counters.

  • Fuzzipeg
    Fuzzipeg Posts: 2,305 Member
    Thank you Gale for the covid/microbiome link. Its long been known the state of one's microbiome is effected by the use of antibiotics and other medications. Mental health is another area which has seen benefits when the microbiome is repaired. It makes so much sense to me that stabilising ones digestive tract is key to achieving health benefits. My Hashimoto's has benefited from sorting my gut issues.
  • Dnarules
    Dnarules Posts: 2,081 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    corinasue1143 wrote: »
    About Trump, Tulsa, and corona.
    On June 19th, Tulsa county had reported 2070 corona cases since the pandemic started. Tulsa town spills out into other counties, but we report by county, and Tulsa town is mainly in Tulsa county. 721 of those cases were reported within the last 2 weeks, so an average of 51.5 people per day. 125 of those were reported on June 19th, 136 more were reported on June 20.

    6 people who came to Tulsa early to set up for the Trump rally tested positive for corona.

    How many Trump people took the virus home with them, and how many Tulsa people caught it from Trump people.

    Pictures show many people without masks and very little social distancing.

    Why shut down so many businesses to keep people from coming into direct contact with each other, then get together a group
    Of several thousand people in one building, sitting next to each other?

    Social distancing or not? If so, why? If not, why shut down business? Please help me understand.

    When I expressed this point months ago, many reminded me that the point never was to stop the spread. It was to slow the spread / flatten the curve to give the healthcare system sufficient time to prepare. Except our healthcare system is no better prepared than it was in Feb. and Mar.

    This to me is the crux of the issue. The point of flattening the curve is to take pressure off the healthcare system AND to buy time to set up policies and procedures to deal better with the outbreak. Here in the US we did the first part and not the second. So other than some tennuous medical advances, FL TX and AZ are no better prepared for their first wave than NY was for theirs. And we have no strategy for how to handle a second wave in states that have successfully beaten back the first wave.

    We should've been developing national protocols for data collection, treatment, contact tracing, triggers for future local shutdowns, strict guidelines for nursing homes, medical pandemic committees, etc and instead we're still arguing about whether Walmart can force you to wear a mask inside their stores. It's tragic.

    Many of the people I know who were being careful are starting to lose their patience, mostly because they feel like theyre getting mixed messages and they don't personally know anyone whose gotten sick. Unfortunately this is another case where not knowing how to vet sources leaves smart people thinking there is no consensus, and there's no one trusted figure standing up and getting everyone rowing in the same direction.

    I cannot like this enough.
  • Diatonic12
    Diatonic12 Posts: 32,344 Member
    Happy, Happy Father's Day

    In all the things we try to do
    Your kids want to be just like you
    We watch every move you make
    We try to take every step you take

    We used to be sort of small
    But when we were with you
    We felt 10 feet tall

    We all want to be brave and smart
    'Cause we love you Dads
    With all our hearts



  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 37,156 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    corinasue1143 wrote: »
    About Trump, Tulsa, and corona.
    On June 19th, Tulsa county had reported 2070 corona cases since the pandemic started. Tulsa town spills out into other counties, but we report by county, and Tulsa town is mainly in Tulsa county. 721 of those cases were reported within the last 2 weeks, so an average of 51.5 people per day. 125 of those were reported on June 19th, 136 more were reported on June 20.

    6 people who came to Tulsa early to set up for the Trump rally tested positive for corona.

    How many Trump people took the virus home with them, and how many Tulsa people caught it from Trump people.

    Pictures show many people without masks and very little social distancing.

    Why shut down so many businesses to keep people from coming into direct contact with each other, then get together a group
    Of several thousand people in one building, sitting next to each other?

    Social distancing or not? If so, why? If not, why shut down business? Please help me understand.

    When I expressed this point months ago, many reminded me that the point never was to stop the spread. It was to slow the spread / flatten the curve to give the healthcare system sufficient time to prepare. Except our healthcare system is no better prepared than it was in Feb. and Mar.

    This to me is the crux of the issue. The point of flattening the curve is to take pressure off the healthcare system AND to buy time to set up policies and procedures to deal better with the outbreak. Here in the US we did the first part and not the second. So other than some tennuous medical advances, FL TX and AZ are no better prepared for their first wave than NY was for theirs. And we have no strategy for how to handle a second wave in states that have successfully beaten back the first wave.

    We should've been developing national protocols for data collection, treatment, contact tracing, triggers for future local shutdowns, strict guidelines for nursing homes, medical pandemic committees, etc and instead we're still arguing about whether Walmart can force you to wear a mask inside their stores. It's tragic.

    Many of the people I know who were being careful are starting to lose their patience, mostly because they feel like theyre getting mixed messages and they don't personally know anyone whose gotten sick. Unfortunately this is another case where not knowing how to vet sources leaves smart people thinking there is no consensus, and there's no one trusted figure standing up and getting everyone rowing in the same direction.

    To the bolded, I'm unclear whether it was part of the experts' intent up front - though I expect it was: Slowing things down has also allowed for a lot of both formal research and experiential best-practice guidelines to evolve in the treatment realm. Those things should help save lives in later waves, or incontinuations of the current wave; and perhaps also reduce transmission somewhat.

    I'm thinking about things like when to use oxygen and when to use ventilators, how to share ventilators between 2 people (not ideal, but potentially helpful if supplies are again short), the protocols now in place for isolating possibly-infected people from probably-uninfected ones in health care facilities**, and that sort of thing.

    ** A local example I found interesting was that here, a hospital system has set up a multi-lane drive-through lab facility in a former Sears auto repair building. It's really popular/busy, so far. Some of my immunocompromised friends really appreciate that they can go get the essential blood draws to monitor complex health conditions, without even having to get out of their car. Obviously, there's still contact with at least one suited-up lab tech, but very limited contact with anyone else or things others recently breathed on/touched.
  • Noreenmarie1234
    Noreenmarie1234 Posts: 7,492 Member
    That is interesting reusable bags are not allowed in your stores. Here they are encouraged.

    At wegmans they suggest using the scan app. It is AWESOME! It is so much faster and easier. You just log into the app when you get to the store and scan your own groceries as you go and put them into your reusable bags. Then you go through the self checkout and just scan the screen and it loads your order and you pay and are done. No human contact at all.

    I am really amazed they are doing this because it is completely based on honesty that you scan and pay for everything. Wegmans is awesome.

    We are still required to wear masks in all buildings here and I see everyone wearing masks. However I work in healthcare and when we are in the small office and break room, everyone takes their masks off.

    I am surprised, but very happy that majority of people I see have been continuing to wear masks everywhere even though our cases have been trending down in NY.
  • corinasue1143
    corinasue1143 Posts: 7,460 Member
    Thanks @galehawkins for the reminder to take my probiotics. Someone suggested earlier that if you weren’t sure if you needed a multivitamin or not, now just might be a good time to experiment and take one, so I am.

    Here, since Corona hit, you can use reusable grocery bags, but you can’t put them on the counter, you have to leave them
    In your basket and bag your groceries yourself, so no one touches them but you.

    As for hospitals, we had over 4,000 empty beds available when the pandemic started, and we have over 4000 empty beds now. But God help you if you need a Dr. or to go to the hospital. And I mean that quite sincerely. I don’t think our medical community has learned much yet. I’m sure there are exceptions. But everything I’ve seen, heard, and experienced says don’t get sick in Oklahoma now.

    So thank you again Gale. I’ll take my vitamins, probiotics, eat healthy, get some exercise, and try to avoid corona and her friends.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    SeanD2407 wrote: »
    Still hardly anyone wearing masks in stores, and florida is about to close again. Getting scared.

    I don't like wearing masks, but I can't get in to some stores and other public institutions without wearing one, so I have one available in the car to use when needed.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Our state has directed no reusable grocey bags and all the stores have large signs reflecting this guidance. Going through the store a couple had their entire cart filled with stuff in reusable bags..

    Hopefully cashier tells them sorry can't check out.

    Some of our stores are spraying the reusable bags on entry, just as they spray our hands as we enter the building.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    "LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?"

    Write a list and stick to it is safest. Get in and out as fast as possible. We have almost zero active cases here and I still am doing that for now.

    We have low cases in our county too.

    We try to make a list. I was having trouble making a list this time because I'm on a special diet for 7-10 days and I literally had to shop for stuff to find stuff I could eat.

    Whether or not you have a list, you might not realize something on your list is down an aisle until you pass it. I guess if you went up and down ever aisle so you didn't miss one, but that seems kind of excessive too.

    I'm totally incapable of doing this myself, but my mom used to put her grocery list in order by aisle, routinely. (She could remember what was where in her customary store, so it wasn't a huge effort; and she was Just. That. Organized. I didn't get that gene.)
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Here's a fun story for you. This is by far the stupidest thing I've seen so far. I was at the store and this guy standing near me literally pulled his mask down to sneeze out into the open air and then pulled it back on. I guess he didn't want to breathe in his own sneeze and mess up his mask with sneeze juices. Thanks, buddy. 🤧 I navigated away from him ASAP, but I couldn't freaking believe it. And there was an elderly woman standing right in his sneeze zone.

    Not only are more than half the people not wearing masks anymore, since the local leadership caved to the complainers and made masks optional but recommended, some of those who are wearing them are doing crap like that.

    Opening things up wouldn't be so bad if people would behave themselves and follow recommended guidelines. Especially when we're living in a covid hot zone.

    When we make things optional, like wearing masks in stores, people seem to choose poorly. It seems to be all or nothing with people. They are acting like it has to be a complete shut down OR completely open and throwing all caution to the wind. Why can't we open things up AND use precautions?
    Jeez Louise. I feel like they need to issue everyone with official 6’ long sticks - if I can reach you with my stick, I am legally allowed to hit you with my stick...

    Bwahahhahahaha!

    Issue the order - I'm ready for battle! My staff training may finally pay off... ;)

    5l43djttapa1.png
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    I've seen video of myself doing staff training. Sadly, it did not look like that. :grimace:;)

    Some of the behavior in stores does have me thinking again about exploiting li'l ol' lady privilege to carry a (gratefully, so far) physically unnnecessary cane, so I have the option of whacking people with it at an extreme.

    I was out again today at 3 stores (local health food grocery, Whole Foods, Costco), and again the experience varied some (in terms of number wearing masks) and how people behaved, as compared with other times. That mouth-only mask thing was more common today, for example.

    Does anyone else find themselves getting more short-tempered? (I assume in my case it's from isolation, either unacknowledged stress, "cabin fever" or atrophy of social skills from exercising them less.) A woman behnd me in the exit line at Costco was very impatient - I'd almost swear she clicked at me at one point, like some form of indoor horn-honking. (I admit to being a li'l ol' lady, but more spry than doddering physically, truly.) At one point, behind me, she muttered "does she have to be so slow", either about the receipt-checker at the door, or the woman just finishing being checked, who was getting her stuff together. I admit, I turned around, looked her in the face, and raised an eyebrow at her (above my mask :lol: ) quite emphatically, though I did keep my mouth shut. This is really not like me. I rarely get irritated, and pretty much never broadcast it. (In my particular Scandinavian Midwestern subculture, a raised eyebrow is a very strong expression of emotion. :lol: ).

    Oh, I'm bitchy in normal times, but last time I went to my closest grocery and some were just disregarding the posted rules (not masks, but the cart rules, and the arrows), I was muttering to myself about it. I realized I was being a freak and doing no good, but still. I decided just not to go there vs. becoming a nutjob.

    Lately I've been going to my office with strict rules but few are there yet, so have been a bit on the non compliant side (doors are labeled exit and entrance but there aren't enough there yet for you to meet up with anyone).

    I've found the one-way foot traffic in the stores to be the trickiest to adhere to. :) They need bigger arrows. I'm constantly back-tracking because I forgot something or have to substitute, etc. That's when I notice I'm going the wrong way. Oops.

    I feel like I have to go up and down every aisle, even ones I don't need anything in, because I don't want to deal with skipping to an aisle I do need something in, and finding myself at the wrong end of it.

    I kept passing an isle, looking down and seeing something I need, then having to go forward to the next isle and double back (or back up, to the isle before), it sure did create a lot of extra steps.

    I feel like I should link this comment to the "NEAT Improvement Strategies to Improve Weight Loss" thread: Burning extra calories via confusing arrow-triggered backtracks while grocery shopping. :wink: :lol:

    LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?

    Oh, absolutely. It was a joke, just that we're on a calorie counting site with so many people wanting to burn more of the little suckers. I wasn't saying anything about the risk, just the "exercise" - Pollyanna looking for a tiny bright side in the Corona mess, I guess. :)

    Concerning risk:

    There was an interesting interview on NPR's Fresh Air this week, with Michaael Osterholm the founder/director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at UMinnesota, and author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs". His center is doing research specifically now on what circumstances have what risk of exposure to sufficient viral load to be dangerous, and related topics. (Link at the bottom to the story/audio. There's much more in the audio (41 minutes) than the text. Interesting guy, long experience.

    From memory, I think he was saying that these "quick pass by" situations are less risky than a few minutes actually in close space with another person. Now, obviously, the risk is still non-zero, and I totally hear what you're saying about the numbers of people we pass being a multiplier of that risk. Still, I found the interview somewhat reassuring about the practical risk levels in grocery stores and the like.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879255417/amid-confusion-about-reopening-an-expert-explains-how-to-assess-covid-risk

    Here the contact tracers ask who you have been in close contact with for at least 15 minutes. I guess because you don't know the names of everyone you passed at Walmart.

    I want to underscore this after some subsequent posts:

    Truly, the information I'm reading/hearing lately is suggesting that length of exposure to an affected person is one important variable, along with others like proximity, and conditions (masks, airflow, etc.). That's why the "15 minute" idea comes into assessing statistical probability of infection. Length of contact changes the odds of transmission meaningfully, IMU.

    IIRC, the interview whose link I posted earlier (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879255417/amid-confusion-about-reopening-an-expert-explains-how-to-assess-covid-risk) was one that made this point.

    Essentially, an epidemiologist (I think that one in that interview) said that people are imagining the virus as a sort of particle that kind of hops off one person (via droplets/mist kind of thing) in passing or at random, and that's it, you're infected. But it's more realistic (as I understand it) to think of it as needing to get to a certain viral load in the exposure, a certain volume of viral particles. Oversimplifying, that can happen in brief time if (say) an unmasked infected person sneezes or yells right at my unmasked face, or it can happen if I sit a few feet away from someone in an indoor area for a longer time period with the ventilation/breeze directing their exhalates toward me, so that viral bits accumulate gradually over a period of time.

    Sure, without contact tracing apps, we don't know who was passing by us at the grocery store, so we can't contact and warn them. But, as a practical matter, and statistically speaking, those contacts are at a much lower risk than (say) the title company agent who sat across the table from us for half an hour at the closing for our house purchase/sale, if we turn out to be infected (or they do).

    I'm not an expert, just my understanding, blah blah blah all standard disclaimers.

    I guess this explains the logic behind our churches being allowed to reopen with shorter services and wider spaces between persons. Less time in close contact.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    corinasue1143 wrote: »
    I just went to Lowe’s where I think every single person I saw had on a mask. Didn’t find what I wanted so I went to Lowe’s 10 miles away. I was the only shopper there with a mask. One employee had hers around her neck and one had hers sitting on her chin, just barely below her mouth. What’s up with people?

    People get tired of being careful. If there's a second or third round of this virus, we'll all have to learn to do the right things again.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    Ate at Los Portales for lunch with wife, kids and daughter in law for first dine in event since things went bat crazy. Some of the staff were wearing masks but not one person dining was wearing a mask. There were some missing tables.

    Obviously not possible to dine with a mask on. The stipulations for restaurants reopening here included greater distancing, so some tables had to be removed, and less diners accommodated in the same space.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »
    I have not seen any arrows at stores. Like others, I am concerned that would send me to areas of the store I wouldn't otherwise visit. As a carnivore, I don't visit most aisles anyway. I go to the meat section (usually in the back of stores) and often the frozen meat section (some have it in the back or side and other stores have it in frozen aisles). The only aisles (aside from frozen) I need to visit usually are for non-groceries... cat food, cleaning supplies. No need to go down every single aisle.

    We don't have directional arrows. Just 6 foot spaced markers on the floor going towards the cashiers.
  • TonyB0588
    TonyB0588 Posts: 9,520 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    "LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?"

    Write a list and stick to it is safest. Get in and out as fast as possible. We have almost zero active cases here and I still am doing that for now.

    We have low cases in our county too.

    We try to make a list. I was having trouble making a list this time because I'm on a special diet for 7-10 days and I literally had to shop for stuff to find stuff I could eat.

    Whether or not you have a list, you might not realize something on your list is down an aisle until you pass it. I guess if you went up and down ever aisle so you didn't miss one, but that seems kind of excessive too.

    I'm totally incapable of doing this myself, but my mom used to put her grocery list in order by aisle, routinely. (She could remember what was where in her customary store, so it wasn't a huge effort; and she was Just. That. Organized. I didn't get that gene.)
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Here's a fun story for you. This is by far the stupidest thing I've seen so far. I was at the store and this guy standing near me literally pulled his mask down to sneeze out into the open air and then pulled it back on. I guess he didn't want to breathe in his own sneeze and mess up his mask with sneeze juices. Thanks, buddy. 🤧 I navigated away from him ASAP, but I couldn't freaking believe it. And there was an elderly woman standing right in his sneeze zone.

    Not only are more than half the people not wearing masks anymore, since the local leadership caved to the complainers and made masks optional but recommended, some of those who are wearing them are doing crap like that.

    Opening things up wouldn't be so bad if people would behave themselves and follow recommended guidelines. Especially when we're living in a covid hot zone.

    When we make things optional, like wearing masks in stores, people seem to choose poorly. It seems to be all or nothing with people. They are acting like it has to be a complete shut down OR completely open and throwing all caution to the wind. Why can't we open things up AND use precautions?
    Jeez Louise. I feel like they need to issue everyone with official 6’ long sticks - if I can reach you with my stick, I am legally allowed to hit you with my stick...

    Bwahahhahahaha!

    Issue the order - I'm ready for battle! My staff training may finally pay off... ;)

    5l43djttapa1.png
    z6oq5clvj4ar.png

    I've seen video of myself doing staff training. Sadly, it did not look like that. :grimace:;)

    Some of the behavior in stores does have me thinking again about exploiting li'l ol' lady privilege to carry a (gratefully, so far) physically unnnecessary cane, so I have the option of whacking people with it at an extreme.

    I was out again today at 3 stores (local health food grocery, Whole Foods, Costco), and again the experience varied some (in terms of number wearing masks) and how people behaved, as compared with other times. That mouth-only mask thing was more common today, for example.

    Does anyone else find themselves getting more short-tempered? (I assume in my case it's from isolation, either unacknowledged stress, "cabin fever" or atrophy of social skills from exercising them less.) A woman behnd me in the exit line at Costco was very impatient - I'd almost swear she clicked at me at one point, like some form of indoor horn-honking. (I admit to being a li'l ol' lady, but more spry than doddering physically, truly.) At one point, behind me, she muttered "does she have to be so slow", either about the receipt-checker at the door, or the woman just finishing being checked, who was getting her stuff together. I admit, I turned around, looked her in the face, and raised an eyebrow at her (above my mask :lol: ) quite emphatically, though I did keep my mouth shut. This is really not like me. I rarely get irritated, and pretty much never broadcast it. (In my particular Scandinavian Midwestern subculture, a raised eyebrow is a very strong expression of emotion. :lol: ).

    Oh, I'm bitchy in normal times, but last time I went to my closest grocery and some were just disregarding the posted rules (not masks, but the cart rules, and the arrows), I was muttering to myself about it. I realized I was being a freak and doing no good, but still. I decided just not to go there vs. becoming a nutjob.

    Lately I've been going to my office with strict rules but few are there yet, so have been a bit on the non compliant side (doors are labeled exit and entrance but there aren't enough there yet for you to meet up with anyone).

    I've found the one-way foot traffic in the stores to be the trickiest to adhere to. :) They need bigger arrows. I'm constantly back-tracking because I forgot something or have to substitute, etc. That's when I notice I'm going the wrong way. Oops.

    I feel like I have to go up and down every aisle, even ones I don't need anything in, because I don't want to deal with skipping to an aisle I do need something in, and finding myself at the wrong end of it.

    I kept passing an isle, looking down and seeing something I need, then having to go forward to the next isle and double back (or back up, to the isle before), it sure did create a lot of extra steps.

    I feel like I should link this comment to the "NEAT Improvement Strategies to Improve Weight Loss" thread: Burning extra calories via confusing arrow-triggered backtracks while grocery shopping. :wink: :lol:

    LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?

    Oh, absolutely. It was a joke, just that we're on a calorie counting site with so many people wanting to burn more of the little suckers. I wasn't saying anything about the risk, just the "exercise" - Pollyanna looking for a tiny bright side in the Corona mess, I guess. :)

    Concerning risk:

    There was an interesting interview on NPR's Fresh Air this week, with Michaael Osterholm the founder/director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at UMinnesota, and author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs". His center is doing research specifically now on what circumstances have what risk of exposure to sufficient viral load to be dangerous, and related topics. (Link at the bottom to the story/audio. There's much more in the audio (41 minutes) than the text. Interesting guy, long experience.

    From memory, I think he was saying that these "quick pass by" situations are less risky than a few minutes actually in close space with another person. Now, obviously, the risk is still non-zero, and I totally hear what you're saying about the numbers of people we pass being a multiplier of that risk. Still, I found the interview somewhat reassuring about the practical risk levels in grocery stores and the like.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879255417/amid-confusion-about-reopening-an-expert-explains-how-to-assess-covid-risk

    Here the contact tracers ask who you have been in close contact with for at least 15 minutes. I guess because you don't know the names of everyone you passed at Walmart.

    Based on the interview link I posted . . . it may go beyond that, to the probabilities.

    Contact tracing is going to have to cut off at some point. Practicality (can you identify them) is one part of that, as you say. Probability of transmission is another.

    To use an intentionally absurd/extreme example: If someone has Covid & licks a stamp and puts the envelope in their mailbox, then a mail deliverer handles the envelope and immediately touches their face, I suppose maybe there's a small chance of viral transfer in sufficient quantities to cause infection . . . but I doubt the contact tracers will be trying to identify who our mail deliverer is, even though it could be done in most cases.

    Timing is also relevant. The virus has various lifespans on different types of surfaces. It is unlikely that the letter will be collected from the mailbox immediately after the stamp was licked by the infected person.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 37,156 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    mockchoc wrote: »
    "LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?"

    Write a list and stick to it is safest. Get in and out as fast as possible. We have almost zero active cases here and I still am doing that for now.

    We have low cases in our county too.

    We try to make a list. I was having trouble making a list this time because I'm on a special diet for 7-10 days and I literally had to shop for stuff to find stuff I could eat.

    Whether or not you have a list, you might not realize something on your list is down an aisle until you pass it. I guess if you went up and down ever aisle so you didn't miss one, but that seems kind of excessive too.

    I'm totally incapable of doing this myself, but my mom used to put her grocery list in order by aisle, routinely. (She could remember what was where in her customary store, so it wasn't a huge effort; and she was Just. That. Organized. I didn't get that gene.)
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    ExistingFish wrote: »
    lynn_glenmont wrote: »
    ReenieHJ wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Here's a fun story for you. This is by far the stupidest thing I've seen so far. I was at the store and this guy standing near me literally pulled his mask down to sneeze out into the open air and then pulled it back on. I guess he didn't want to breathe in his own sneeze and mess up his mask with sneeze juices. Thanks, buddy. 🤧 I navigated away from him ASAP, but I couldn't freaking believe it. And there was an elderly woman standing right in his sneeze zone.

    Not only are more than half the people not wearing masks anymore, since the local leadership caved to the complainers and made masks optional but recommended, some of those who are wearing them are doing crap like that.

    Opening things up wouldn't be so bad if people would behave themselves and follow recommended guidelines. Especially when we're living in a covid hot zone.

    When we make things optional, like wearing masks in stores, people seem to choose poorly. It seems to be all or nothing with people. They are acting like it has to be a complete shut down OR completely open and throwing all caution to the wind. Why can't we open things up AND use precautions?
    Jeez Louise. I feel like they need to issue everyone with official 6’ long sticks - if I can reach you with my stick, I am legally allowed to hit you with my stick...

    Bwahahhahahaha!

    Issue the order - I'm ready for battle! My staff training may finally pay off... ;)

    5l43djttapa1.png
    z6oq5clvj4ar.png

    I've seen video of myself doing staff training. Sadly, it did not look like that. :grimace:;)

    Some of the behavior in stores does have me thinking again about exploiting li'l ol' lady privilege to carry a (gratefully, so far) physically unnnecessary cane, so I have the option of whacking people with it at an extreme.

    I was out again today at 3 stores (local health food grocery, Whole Foods, Costco), and again the experience varied some (in terms of number wearing masks) and how people behaved, as compared with other times. That mouth-only mask thing was more common today, for example.

    Does anyone else find themselves getting more short-tempered? (I assume in my case it's from isolation, either unacknowledged stress, "cabin fever" or atrophy of social skills from exercising them less.) A woman behnd me in the exit line at Costco was very impatient - I'd almost swear she clicked at me at one point, like some form of indoor horn-honking. (I admit to being a li'l ol' lady, but more spry than doddering physically, truly.) At one point, behind me, she muttered "does she have to be so slow", either about the receipt-checker at the door, or the woman just finishing being checked, who was getting her stuff together. I admit, I turned around, looked her in the face, and raised an eyebrow at her (above my mask :lol: ) quite emphatically, though I did keep my mouth shut. This is really not like me. I rarely get irritated, and pretty much never broadcast it. (In my particular Scandinavian Midwestern subculture, a raised eyebrow is a very strong expression of emotion. :lol: ).

    Oh, I'm bitchy in normal times, but last time I went to my closest grocery and some were just disregarding the posted rules (not masks, but the cart rules, and the arrows), I was muttering to myself about it. I realized I was being a freak and doing no good, but still. I decided just not to go there vs. becoming a nutjob.

    Lately I've been going to my office with strict rules but few are there yet, so have been a bit on the non compliant side (doors are labeled exit and entrance but there aren't enough there yet for you to meet up with anyone).

    I've found the one-way foot traffic in the stores to be the trickiest to adhere to. :) They need bigger arrows. I'm constantly back-tracking because I forgot something or have to substitute, etc. That's when I notice I'm going the wrong way. Oops.

    I feel like I have to go up and down every aisle, even ones I don't need anything in, because I don't want to deal with skipping to an aisle I do need something in, and finding myself at the wrong end of it.

    I kept passing an isle, looking down and seeing something I need, then having to go forward to the next isle and double back (or back up, to the isle before), it sure did create a lot of extra steps.

    I feel like I should link this comment to the "NEAT Improvement Strategies to Improve Weight Loss" thread: Burning extra calories via confusing arrow-triggered backtracks while grocery shopping. :wink: :lol:

    LOL yeah, but it also means I spend more time in the store around other people, and those extra steps cause me to walk past more people, where if I just walked where I needed, I might not pass those people. So, does it really cut down risk? Or make it riskier?

    Oh, absolutely. It was a joke, just that we're on a calorie counting site with so many people wanting to burn more of the little suckers. I wasn't saying anything about the risk, just the "exercise" - Pollyanna looking for a tiny bright side in the Corona mess, I guess. :)

    Concerning risk:

    There was an interesting interview on NPR's Fresh Air this week, with Michaael Osterholm the founder/director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at UMinnesota, and author of "Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs". His center is doing research specifically now on what circumstances have what risk of exposure to sufficient viral load to be dangerous, and related topics. (Link at the bottom to the story/audio. There's much more in the audio (41 minutes) than the text. Interesting guy, long experience.

    From memory, I think he was saying that these "quick pass by" situations are less risky than a few minutes actually in close space with another person. Now, obviously, the risk is still non-zero, and I totally hear what you're saying about the numbers of people we pass being a multiplier of that risk. Still, I found the interview somewhat reassuring about the practical risk levels in grocery stores and the like.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879255417/amid-confusion-about-reopening-an-expert-explains-how-to-assess-covid-risk

    Here the contact tracers ask who you have been in close contact with for at least 15 minutes. I guess because you don't know the names of everyone you passed at Walmart.

    Based on the interview link I posted . . . it may go beyond that, to the probabilities.

    Contact tracing is going to have to cut off at some point. Practicality (can you identify them) is one part of that, as you say. Probability of transmission is another.

    To use an intentionally absurd/extreme example: If someone has Covid & licks a stamp and puts the envelope in their mailbox, then a mail deliverer handles the envelope and immediately touches their face, I suppose maybe there's a small chance of viral transfer in sufficient quantities to cause infection . . . but I doubt the contact tracers will be trying to identify who our mail deliverer is, even though it could be done in most cases.

    Timing is also relevant. The virus has various lifespans on different types of surfaces. It is unlikely that the letter will be collected from the mailbox immediately after the stamp was licked by the infected person.

    Of course. I was intentionally trying to make up a scenario where a contact could be traced (it wouldn't be that hard to find out who my mail carrier is), but the contact tracers would be unlikely to ask about them because the probability of transmission to them is so low.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,525 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    GaleHawkins wrote: »
    Ate at Los Portales for lunch with wife, kids and daughter in law for first dine in event since things went bat crazy. Some of the staff were wearing masks but not one person dining was wearing a mask. There were some missing tables.

    Obviously not possible to dine with a mask on. The stipulations for restaurants reopening here included greater distancing, so some tables had to be removed, and less diners accommodated in the same space.


    What happened here in SA was phased re opening of restaurants.

    Initially outdoor dining only, now we are including indoor dining but tables have to be more spaced apart and diners/ drinkers have to stay at their designated table - ie they can't mingle at the bar and we can't have any form of communal eating like salad bars or buffets.

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