Coronavirus prep

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  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

    This article is about influenza, but influenza is very much like covid in the fact that it is a contagious respiratory disease.

    Thoughts?

    I'm really interested to hear the opinions on those who want to mandate face masks:

    Face Mask

    In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11–13,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11–13,15,17,34,35). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.

    Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

    I'm not sure it's the same as influenza. We know Coronavirus is spread by droplets leaving our mouth and nose, so it is logical that a mask that limits droplets will work. Is it 100%? Nope. Nobody ever said it is... but any effectiveness is worthwhile.

    In fact, unless if a mask was proven to be 0% effective (not against influenza), they should be required. Even a 1% decrease in spread means more than a thousand lives saved here in the U.S. alone... so far. If you believe your personal convenience is more important than more than 1,000 lives; then just stay home.

    Can you point me in the direction of the current death rate? Google seems to be failing me. I came up with 0.04%, this is all deaths - not taking into account comorbidities and stuff. I'm sure an expert could get me a better number. I'm not sure a 1% or 5% effectiveness rate would be worth mandates or enforcement. Would you take a vaccine with a 1% effectiveness rate?

    People die in car crashes every year, should we make more restrictive mandates (10mph speed limits) and spend money on enforcement? It would save significantly more people from death or injury.

    Don't get me wrong, I wear a mask where required. My state hasn't made a mandate and I'm glad they haven't. They've done contact tracing, people aren't picking up COVID from the gym or the restaurants. The new cases haven't gotten them there. They are getting them from their household, or from large gatherings I'm guessing where social distancing isn't enforced - like protests and other large gatherings.

    Are you seriously arguing it is ok for people to die for your convenience?! Seems selfish to me.

    Fear and feelings aside, we make those kinds of arguments every day. Do you know how many people die or are injured in car crashes? Do you know what decisions they have to make when they set speed limits? They know changing the limit by 5 or 10 mph saves or risks lives. They have to make that kind of decision because people have to go to places.

    I don't think it's okay for people to die for my convenience, I never said that and I don't think anything I said should make you arrive at that conclusion. I'm just trying to get you to consider that these kinds of choices are made every day. Should I never get in a car and drive because there is a risk I could hit someone? No, I follow the rules and have insurance, but I take that risk to drive - as does everyone else on the road.

    If I thought it was okay for people to die for my convenience, I wouldn't stop at stop signs - that's inconvenient! Who cares if I hit someone. But I do stop, because I do care.

    I care about the possibility of spreading covid. I step back and allow people to walk through doorways so we aren't in it together, I stand on the 6' markings when standing in line. I don't shake hands. I use hand sanitizer when entering and leaving stores. I am okay with wearing a mask, but I don't think it is really doing anything when I wear it. I have barely been within 6' of someone for more than 15 seconds (you know, in passing). I don't think that casual contact is enough to spread covid, and from what I've heard, it isn't.

    Vehicles are used in a lot of ways that are extremely valuable - in fact, in ways that quite literally preserve and save lives. How is the benefit of operating a vehicle the same as the benefit of refusing to wear a mask? This is the part I can't understand about anti-maskers. I understand the benefits of wearing a mask. I have yet to hear more than "cuz muh freedoms..." or "I don't like the way it looks / feels" as a reason to not wear a mask.

    I never said I was against masks, I'm against mandates that require enforcement. That takes law enforcement or regulators away from things where they are really needed. I don't want our already stressed first responders coming to dispute with individuals about mask-wearing. That does cost. That opens them for more discrimination issues that they are already facing. You can't just say "oh we should mandate that!" it costs businesses, it requires law enforcement (at the same time everyone is calling for defunding and disbandment of law enforcement)

    All this and Governor is now allowing cities to mandate (city by city) mask-wearing.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies

    Oh, c'mon.

    Personality disorders are why people are coughing on babies.



    I decided early on that it is none of my business what other people do so I'm not about to point out to a stranger that they need to step back six feet. Instead, I take a large shopping cart and try to keep it between me and the person behind me. There is only so much I can do against sociopathic behavior so since I'm old I try very hard not to put myself in situations that will cause conflict. So far in the past four months no one has gotten mad at me.

    Apparently, she worked in the local school district. No one has gotten mad at me, I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    We don't have a mandate. By suggestion and recommendation, we have 84%. No enforcement measures.

    This survey? https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-06/topline-axios-poll-wave-14.pdf

    I live in TN - the lowest rate of any of the states included in results - and my observation is that we are nowhere near the level who said they wear a mask. But that also depends on location. My work requires it and I'm almost certain everyone in my dept. is going to claim "yes" as to wearing a mask. I'm also certain they don't wear a mask when outside of work, especially since half of the people in my dept. have expressed their opposition to wearing masks in stores. The rate found for my state is minimum 3 times higher than reality and likely closer to 7-8 times higher than reality, but I'm being very conservative to average out for places like Memphis and Nashville. Note the survey was taken before Memphis' mask ordinance took effect, so hopefully better now (but still not enough).
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited July 2020
    The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies

    Oh, c'mon.

    Personality disorders are why people are coughing on babies.



    I decided early on that it is none of my business what other people do so I'm not about to point out to a stranger that they need to step back six feet. Instead, I take a large shopping cart and try to keep it between me and the person behind me. There is only so much I can do against sociopathic behavior so since I'm old I try very hard not to put myself in situations that will cause conflict. So far in the past four months no one has gotten mad at me.

    Apparently, she worked in the local school district. No one has gotten mad at me, I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    We don't have a mandate. By suggestion and recommendation, we have 84%. No enforcement measures.

    This survey? https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-06/topline-axios-poll-wave-14.pdf

    I live in TN - the lowest rate of any of the states included in results - and my observation is that we are nowhere near the level who said they wear a mask. But that also depends on location. My work requires it and I'm almost certain everyone in my dept. is going to claim "yes" as to wearing a mask. I'm also certain they don't wear a mask when outside of work, especially since half of the people in my dept. have expressed their opposition to wearing masks in stores. The rate found for my state is minimum 3 times higher than reality and likely closer to 7-8 times higher than reality, but I'm being very conservative to average out for places like Memphis and Nashville. Note the survey was taken before Memphis' mask ordinance took effect, so hopefully better now (but still not enough).

    In my experience, I would say 75-85% wear masks, which is pretty close to the slides he showed. Your link didn't load for me.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies

    Oh, c'mon.

    Personality disorders are why people are coughing on babies.



    I decided early on that it is none of my business what other people do so I'm not about to point out to a stranger that they need to step back six feet. Instead, I take a large shopping cart and try to keep it between me and the person behind me. There is only so much I can do against sociopathic behavior so since I'm old I try very hard not to put myself in situations that will cause conflict. So far in the past four months no one has gotten mad at me.

    Apparently, she worked in the local school district. No one has gotten mad at me, I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    We don't have a mandate. By suggestion and recommendation, we have 84%. No enforcement measures.

    This survey? https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-06/topline-axios-poll-wave-14.pdf

    I live in TN - the lowest rate of any of the states included in results - and my observation is that we are nowhere near the level who said they wear a mask. But that also depends on location. My work requires it and I'm almost certain everyone in my dept. is going to claim "yes" as to wearing a mask. I'm also certain they don't wear a mask when outside of work, especially since half of the people in my dept. have expressed their opposition to wearing masks in stores. The rate found for my state is minimum 3 times higher than reality and likely closer to 7-8 times higher than reality, but I'm being very conservative to average out for places like Memphis and Nashville. Note the survey was taken before Memphis' mask ordinance took effect, so hopefully better now (but still not enough).

    In my experience, I would say 75-85% wear masks, which is pretty close to the slides he showed. Your link didn't load for me.

    Hmm.... even NY isn't at 75%.

    Here is another link - an article about that study and mentions others found similar results. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/26/which-part-of-the-u-s-leads-the-country-in-mask-wearing/?fbclid=IwAR0QztL5bTHSfGu4cWedL-ZwQdYNEwuYgR8C12G5tDylhHQ6T6jLp3WZCuA
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited July 2020
    The fear and prejudiced feelings about these things are why people are coughing on babies

    Oh, c'mon.

    Personality disorders are why people are coughing on babies.



    I decided early on that it is none of my business what other people do so I'm not about to point out to a stranger that they need to step back six feet. Instead, I take a large shopping cart and try to keep it between me and the person behind me. There is only so much I can do against sociopathic behavior so since I'm old I try very hard not to put myself in situations that will cause conflict. So far in the past four months no one has gotten mad at me.

    Apparently, she worked in the local school district. No one has gotten mad at me, I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    We don't have a mandate. By suggestion and recommendation, we have 84%. No enforcement measures.

    This survey? https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-06/topline-axios-poll-wave-14.pdf

    I live in TN - the lowest rate of any of the states included in results - and my observation is that we are nowhere near the level who said they wear a mask. But that also depends on location. My work requires it and I'm almost certain everyone in my dept. is going to claim "yes" as to wearing a mask. I'm also certain they don't wear a mask when outside of work, especially since half of the people in my dept. have expressed their opposition to wearing masks in stores. The rate found for my state is minimum 3 times higher than reality and likely closer to 7-8 times higher than reality, but I'm being very conservative to average out for places like Memphis and Nashville. Note the survey was taken before Memphis' mask ordinance took effect, so hopefully better now (but still not enough).

    In my experience, I would say 75-85% wear masks, which is pretty close to the slides he showed. Your link didn't load for me.

    Hmm.... even NY isn't at 75%.

    Here is another link - an article about that study and mentions others found similar results. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/26/which-part-of-the-u-s-leads-the-country-in-mask-wearing/?fbclid=IwAR0QztL5bTHSfGu4cWedL-ZwQdYNEwuYgR8C12G5tDylhHQ6T6jLp3WZCuA

    FL, TX, and CA are doing so well now, aren't they? They were near the front of the pack!

    This was a locally done poll, AFAIK, unfortunately, I can't seem to find the data and stuff from the governor updates anywhere except in the youtube video. I think it was also more recent than the linked poll.

    ETA and I said "In my experience" - I am socially distancing and staying in when needed, do you think I'm going around visually polling? I mean when I go to the grocery store (once a week) about 75-85% of people are wearing masks.

    Everywhere else I've been, it's more than that - the dentist, the chiropractor, Lowes (I only saw customer service, doing a pickup order), I don't think I saw ANYONE not wearing a mask at those locations. I saw some poor mask usage (pulled below nose) but otherwise, everyone I saw was wearing masks.

    So my experience does support 82% use.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.


    Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.

    The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.

    Be realistic here. C'mon.

    There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.

    But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.

    We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.

    I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,416 Member
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.


    Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.

    The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.

    Be realistic here. C'mon.

    There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.

    But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.

    We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.

    I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.

    Did you or did you not say:
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    The store employees making low wage are the enforcers. I wouldn't count on that. The one place that does work is Costco because it's members-only with membership required to enter. Other business have open doors and even though they are empowered to the "No mask no service" thing - it's still a matter of people just being testy in general. When we had masks as a suggestion, lots of people weren't wearing them. I'm happy for the Mandate even though I know there aren't going to be police at the door of the Safeway.




  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited July 2020
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.


    Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.

    The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.

    Be realistic here. C'mon.

    There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.

    But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.

    We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.

    I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.

    I'm going to disagree altogether and say we need a mandate yesterday. But then I'm in the crowd that doesn't pretend people with pre-existing conditions don't exist in an effort to argue that the mortality rate is too low to make it worthwhile to wear masks.

    I think wearing masks is worthwhile, in certain situations. I don't think to mandate it is appropriate.

    If mask-wearing is for kindness and protection of others only, it's trying to legislate morality.

    If it were really about the health of people with pre-existing conditions, cigarettes and unhealthy food would need to be mandated away too.

    I don't think wearing masks is not important. I think mandating wearing masks is inappropriate.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.


    Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.

    The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.

    Be realistic here. C'mon.

    There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.

    But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.

    We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.

    I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.

    I'm going to disagree altogether and say we need a mandate yesterday. But then I'm in the crowd that doesn't pretend people with pre-existing conditions don't exist in an effort to argue that the mortality rate is too low to make it worthwhile to wear masks.

    I think wearing masks is worthwhile, in certain situations. I don't think to mandate it is appropriate.

    If mask-wearing is for kindness and protection of others only, it's trying to legislate morality.

    If it were really about the health of people with pre-existing conditions, cigarettes and unhealthy food would need to be mandated away too.

    I don't think wearing masks is not important. I think mandating wearing masks is inappropriate.

    Morality is legislated constantly - and that is not just ok, it is necessary. Necessary because some people don't care about anyone else and will only do the right thing when forced. As to cigarettes, unhealthy food, etc. - there are already laws (as there should be) about smoking around other people. Most places, you can't smoke in stores, for example. The laws in place are pretty much exclusively about not harming others with poor choices. You can smoke away and harm yourself, but you can't expose me to 2nd hand smoke. Same should be true with masks. If you don't want to wear a mask in your car or home, then no problem. But when I'm trying to get some food at the store, I shouldn't have to be exposed.

    I don't mind stores or places of business requiring it. That is an exchange, they have something to offer and I willingly enter into an exchange with them. There is an exchange. I can take my business elsewhere or online if I don't like the policies.

    We know cigarette smoke is dangerous. You are basically assuming by breathing I'm being dangerous. That is kind of insulting for you to compare my essential to life breathing to cigarette smoke. I know I *could* be asymptomatic - they don't talk to me. Talking is what spreads it, not breathing. My breath does =/= cigarette smoke.

    If you don't want to be exposed, wear a face shield with your masks, it does far more to protect the wearer than those around them. It covers your eyes. it is a waterproof barrier between things in the air around you and your face, it will protect you far better. Take some responsibility, don't shame others for not caring about you. It really isn't the responsibility of others to protect you, it's yours.

    We legislate morality when it violates the constitution, nothing else. Don't kid yourself. If "morality" were really legislated, it would look like an Islamic country where Sharia law is in place. That is legislated morality. We don't legislate morality, we follow the constitution.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    For clarity:

    I think mandates should be considered, as a reasonable tool. Many things are done for public health and safety, many of them are inconvenient to someone or everyone, but we're used to them. I don't see mask-wearing as such an onerous thing there's a reason not to mandate use, setting off the inconvenience against the potential benefits.

    That said, I'm not saying a nationwide absolute mandate is a necessity. There are still areas where there are very low or even zero rates of infection. I'm certainly not saying that a nationwide mandate is an unvarnished good thing: I'd prefer voluntary compliance to work. I don't like mandates.

    I think it would be fine, in areas with high rates of infection in certain areas (one city in a county, multiple cities in a region of a state, that sort of thing) to mandate masks more widely than the absolute narrowest area of infection.

    You are seeing 80%+ mask usage voluntarily in your area. That's great. I believe you. Others are reporting near zero or single-digit kind of usage in their area. I believe them, too.

    In a PP, you mentioned shaming, harassment, prejudice. Some here are reporting seeing that used against people who are wearing masks or requiring masks. I believe them. (There's a little of that immediately here, but this is a middling-compliant area so the social pressure is probably more toward mask wearing than against it. OTOH, it was in this state, around 90 miles away, where a store security person was shot by a couple of guys who didn't like that the guard told their friend she had to wear a mask in order to shop. (That, like spitting on counters and whatnot, is obviously pathological behavior.))

    If we keep seeing big infection spikes in various parts of the country, major noncompliance with voluntary mask recommendations or toothless mandates in significant numbers of areas, and abuse/prejudice/shaming (or even attacks) on businesses' employees telling people to wear masks or on mask-wearers, then I think it's legit to put a nationwide mandate on the table for consideration. The primary function of a mandate is to add weight to the pressure to use masks.

    I do think that if a business is allowed to require masks, and a customer fractiously objects and behaves violently or abusively, it should be legit for the business to call police (as they would do if customers get fractious over a large range of other things).

    Even with an absolute mask mandate, I don't expect police to start patrolling stores and handing out tickets for non-mask-wearers. Enforcement of other public health rules (wearing shoes in restaurants, say) doesn't work like that.

    I think we can agree on a lot of these things.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited July 2020
    kimny72 wrote: »

    Wow. I don't honestly know how to respond to this without breaking forum rules.

    I think we all depend far more than we realize on decent human beings taking responsibility for the care and safety of each other, and agreeing to abide by laws that keep the community safe.

    I'm just going to back away from this thread for a little while.

    I probably should to. If you are paying attention, you'd know I take all the appropriate measures myself. I stay home unless necessary, I wear masks, I use hand sanitizer, I keep distance, I clean the gym equipment when I'm done with it, I do everything I can to protect other people. That is who I am and it's my choice.

    I also do all I can to protect myself and my family. The kids don't go out. We only have one adult out ever.

    I don't think the government should have the authority to write me a ticket if I don't.

    I don't think anyone should ever insinuate that my breathing is equivalent to secondhand smoke, that was hurtful.

  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    Very little is easier to find than irrational behavior online.
    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    Do you think those numbers reflect the reality where you are?
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited July 2020
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    Very little is easier to find than irrational behavior online.
    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    Do you think those numbers reflect the reality where you are?

    Yes, I said that. They do seem to correlate.

    I would say between 75 and 85% in the grocery store. 100% at the dentist and chiropractor and hair salon. All people at the gym were maintaining 12'+ distance. 95% at drive throughs (I saw one person without a mask). Those are the only places I've been, and I don't go out often. I go to scheduled appointments everywhere except the grocery store and gym, so there is very little traffic.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    You are really letting your anxiety run away with you.


    Just like there is not a Deputy at every stop sign, there is not going to be a mass LEO response to a teenager at the Rite Aid not wearing a mask.

    The "enforcement" as it is will fall to retailers and businesses to not serve those who are not wearing a mask. Just like dogs aren't allowed in stores, but people bring their dogs in anyway. Smoking isn't allowed at the zoo, but people smoke anyway. I don't blame stores and businesses for not being able to control this any more than they can control someone walking out with a $40 steak.

    Be realistic here. C'mon.

    There is a lot to be said for Social Pressure. The more people who wear masks, the more people will be self-conscious about not wearing them. Not everyone - because sociopathy and psychopathy - but we'll have to live with that or move to a tent in the woods.

    But see we already have that. Without a mandate. There are posters on this thread calling for a nationwide mandate with enforcement. In the past 5 pages. That is what I think is being irrational.

    We have no mandate in our state, and establishments have had the right to refuse people without masks since the shutdown started in March. What I've said, and what I'm saying - is that we don't need a mandate. We don't need law enforcement to enforce it.

    I didn't realize there were still areas where businesses were powerless to deny service to non-maskers. That has been allowed here since the beginning. I think we are seeing the word "mandate" and "enforcement" different ways.

    Did you or did you not say:
    Where I live, we have a Sheriff, a Deputy, and one Patrol Officer. I don't think having them running around mandating masks is a good use of their time.

    The store employees making low wage are the enforcers. I wouldn't count on that. The one place that does work is Costco because it's members-only with membership required to enter. Other business have open doors and even though they are empowered to the "No mask no service" thing - it's still a matter of people just being testy in general. When we had masks as a suggestion, lots of people weren't wearing them. I'm happy for the Mandate even though I know there aren't going to be police at the door of the Safeway.




    IME, big chains with lots of employees are able to enforce it by having employees dedicated (who are already stationed outside to count people coming in). Earlier today I was in my neighborhood's local shopping area (filled with small stores now able to be open), and they were doing a good job too. Part of is community-spiritedness, I think, as well as the fact many are so small that they were having a very tiny number of people in at a time, so it would be hard not to stick out not wearing a mask. And most people in the neighborhood really want to support our local stores, so wouldn't fight the rules I don't think.

    And no, people break the rules outdoors (they are mandated in situations where you can't socially distance) here and mostly don't get ticketed. People were crowding in lines (no mask -- 20-somethings) to get into bars and restaurants and within the bars (there's supposed to be a limited number of people in them and you are supposed to stay in a seat when not going to the bathroom or the like). If bars don't enforce the rules they will get penalties.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I just see what I consider irrational behavior online.

    Very little is easier to find than irrational behavior online.
    I'm just watching our state's daily covid update. They did a survey - which I understand isn't scientific or anything - but 82% of respondents say they are wearing masks when they go out. They even broke it down by age. 16% said No, and 2% weren't sure. That's over the 80% that would be needed to slow down covid.

    Do you think those numbers reflect the reality where you are?

    Yes, I said that. They do seem to correlate.

    I would say between 75 and 85% in the grocery store. 100% at the dentist and chiropractor and hair salon. All people at the gym were maintaining 12'+ distance. 95% at drive throughs (I saw one person without a mask). Those are the only places I've been, and I don't go out often. I go to scheduled appointments everywhere except the grocery store and gym, so there is very little traffic.

    I noticed your answer after I posted that, and that you were mostly talking about at business that themselves have mandates. The surveys typically are about wearing them always, like outdoors.

    I don't personally think there's a need to wear them when you are outdoors and can socially distance (our mandate does not require them then), but I see lots of people outdoors in situations where they aren't, or can't, socially distance, and no way is compliance that high then, and less so outdoors downtown (with more people from the 'burbs and elsewhere out of town).

    From what people have reported here, more rural areas in general are less likely to have high number of people wearing masks outside of strict requirements (like at a dentist or hairdresser or some stores that demand it), which makes some sense as I understand the need wouldn't be as apparent and might not exist. That's why I was surprised before I understood you were talking about such limited situations. Curious what the percentages are for your state on the chart Carnivore linked, as none were over 80%.