Coronavirus prep
Replies
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The problem is that bats poo all over everything. There are a lot of pollinating imsects and animals, and the wind.
Not all pollinators pollinate all things needing pollination. They aren't necessarily interchangeable, and many things don't wind-pollinate.
I don't know anything about Chinese bat species, or how diseases transfer from them to people (is it poo, or something else? dunno).
For sure, some plants are pollinated almost exclusively by one specific type of insect or animal, and not generally others. Some orchids are particularly weird, in that way, that I know of - very specialized as to pollinators. And yes, some orchids affect food.
Seems like, historically, when humans decide to remodel nature (wipe out a species on purpose), it often turns out to be a Really Bad Idea.
I'm betting there are improvements that can be made, reducing disease transfer from animals to humans, without killing all bats.
Besides, the next one probably won't be bats, it'll be something else. Can't kill 'em all - or shouldn't.
Like not keeping them in cages in markets frequented by humans.14 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »When my sister was in high school, she had a pool party with lots of friends. Afterwards we got a call from one of the mothers saying that her daughter had Hepatitis A. Everyone who had been in contact with her, including all the kids at her school and our family that hosted the party, had to get shots. When my mother asked the other mother why she had allowed her daughter to go out, the woman replied, "She wanted to go to the party so badly, I couldn't say no."
Shockingly stupid and inconsiderate.
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Bats in Africa and China are significantly large compared to the puny N. American species.
Not an ingredient I would consider for soup! or a pet.
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.0 -
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either15 -
This might be Covid era related or maybe not. But it seems that people are jumping off a cliff for little to no reason. Spitting on others because the sign says to wear a mask or being asked to keep their distance, shooting food workers because their order is too slow, assaulting bus drivers, etc., etc. Dh read me several reports last night of food workers being attacked(1 new to his job was shot and killed). What is wrong with people that they feel the only way to deal with something is hurting, killing, spitting, screaming, cursing and calling people terrible names, assaulting others???? The disregard of rules, laws, mandates, common sense for crying out loud!! Who sends their child to school with the possibility of a positive Covid test?? Who allows a child to attend a swimming party with Hep A just because the parent cannot say no????
Honestly, is it simply increase of social media coverage these days, more entitled human beings.....what??? Is this telling of how children are being brought up with lack of respect? Parents who can't say no? All the authority stripped away from authority figures these days? The lack of respect, tolerance and common sense from everyone is absolutely appalling.
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Bats in Africa and China are significantly large compared to the puny N. American species.
Not an ingredient I would consider for soup! or a pet.
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
Clearly, many of us wouldn’t keep bats as pets , nor consume them. However, it’s morally, and ethically wrong, for humans to eliminate other species. We have all three species here (MN). I’ve managed to cohabit with them for almost 69 years with no illness or death from them. They serve a purpose in the scheme of things.16 -
paperpudding wrote: »Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either
Well, some countries are:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/spain-to-cull-nearly-100000-mink-in-coronavirus-outbreak
Both Spain and the Netherlands are killing minks.2 -
paperpudding wrote: »Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either
Well, some countries are:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/spain-to-cull-nearly-100000-mink-in-coronavirus-outbreak
Both Spain and the Netherlands are killing minks.
That is the arrogance of mankind. Even medicine is moving dramatically to a more complete view of the world in synergy. In medicine, they used to look at an individual's health/body in isolation, like in a vacuum. Not until they discovered that their are more organisms living inside of us than our own living cells (our microbiome), did they start to consider everything related to the microbiome and environment. Medicine is in a major paradigm shift right now. Microbiome R&D was a novel concept five years ago. Now there are 100s of jobs posted every single day, even in every large Pharma company, with new divisions cropping up every day, studying how the human body interacts with the bugs inside and outside of it. I feel they still need to do a lot more with the chemical exposure and human health.
Guess what happens when you kill off all of those pesky freeloading bugs inside of us? You pretty much die. We are just beginning to understand all the damage done by the use of antibiotics in children.
When man believes that everything revolves around man (which is, IMHO, an outdated religious opinion), we all die.15 -
paperpudding wrote: »Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either
Well, some countries are:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/spain-to-cull-nearly-100000-mink-in-coronavirus-outbreak
Both Spain and the Netherlands are killing minks.
Did you even read the article? They are killing minks that are caged in a fur farm, because there's an outbreak on the farm and the minks have it.
In many areas in Europe, minks aren't a natural part of the ecosystem. Instead, they are non-native species that has become a problem for the native ecosystem after escaping captivity at fur farms or after being released by activists attacking the farms.
In the odd case you read Finnish (my native language), here's a link for source: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkki
If not, I'll just refer the main points of the section about the damage minks cause to ecosystems where they don't originally belong: a pre-existing species called European mink (the one you call "mink" is American mink here) has been driven close to extinction as the American mink is bigger and stronger, lives in similar habitats and eats the same foods. The overgrowing mink population causes major damage to some bird populations, for which the mink is a predator. Birds and other mammals getting messed up causes a chain reaction in the ecosystem, you know.
So, you're misreading an article about fur farms to mean the wild population of animals, and even then referring to a species that is already a problem in nature because it hasn't been there naturally in the first place. Then you're drawing from this to the conclusion that animals that are dangerous to humans should be killed. At risk of sounding condescending, go watch Lion King. Mufasa explains the Circle of Life in pretty simple terms there.20 -
Bats in Africa and China are significantly large compared to the puny N. American species.
Not an ingredient I would consider for soup! or a pet.
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
Bats in Africa and China may be larger, but that doesn't mean they WANT to be around us. I can understand the desire for mosquito control, as they come to us to feed on us. But rattlesnakes and bats don't want to be around us. Just let them be.
By the way, bats EAT mosquitos.16 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Bats in Africa and China are significantly large compared to the puny N. American species.
Not an ingredient I would consider for soup! or a pet.
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
By the way, bats EAT mosquitos.
👍🏻
They sure do, and they eat a lot of them. So that’s an important reason for having them in our ecosystem.12 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?1 -
For the most part, bats shun humans as much as possible. Every evening when I go for a walk by the lake there are bats flying all over the place. The fear of rabies is growing now but I took it all back outside. I'd rather dodge bats than go bats thinking about 'Rona at the gym.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either
Well, some countries are:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/spain-to-cull-nearly-100000-mink-in-coronavirus-outbreak
Both Spain and the Netherlands are killing minks.
That is the arrogance of mankind. Even medicine is moving dramatically to a more complete view of the world in synergy. In medicine, they used to look at an individual's health/body in isolation, like in a vacuum. Not until they discovered that their are more organisms living inside of us than our own living cells (our microbiome), did they start to consider everything related to the microbiome and environment. Medicine is in a major paradigm shift right now. Microbiome R&D was a novel concept five years ago. Now there are 100s of jobs posted every single day, even in every large Pharma company, with new divisions cropping up every day, studying how the human body interacts with the bugs inside and outside of it. I feel they still need to do a lot more with the chemical exposure and human health.
Guess what happens when you kill off all of those pesky freeloading bugs inside of us? You pretty much die. We are just beginning to understand all the damage done by the use of antibiotics in children.
When man believes that everything revolves around man (which is, IMHO, an outdated religious opinion), we all die.
Mr. Phiferman, I want you to know I eat yogurt and as many probiotic foods as possible every day. I still disagree that Coronaviruses, especially those found in bats of Asia and Africa are helpful in any way to the ongoing existance of the human species.
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Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are wold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
I don't think any of us are saying we're for "wet markets" in China and the Chinese government covering up Covid-19 cases (by the way, you could argue that in the US, our government has done the same thing!). What we're saying is you can't wipe out an entire species for the transgressions of mankind. Put pressure on the Chinese government to stop wet markets? Yes, absolutely.
With the way we treat chickens in the US, there could be an outbreak here, caused by our agricultural practices.15 -
No, I wasn't even talking about pressuring Chinese or Vietnamese to change their cultural cuisines. I actually want to know if people are willing to do whatever it takes to stop further Pandemics by rooting out the causes ona biological level?0
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MikePfirrman wrote: »Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are wold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
I don't think any of us are saying we're for "wet markets" in China and the Chinese government covering up Covid-19 cases (by the way, you could argue that in the US, our government has done the same thing!). What we're saying is you can't wipe out an entire species for the transgressions of mankind. Put pressure on the Chinese government to stop wet markets? Yes, absolutely.
With the way we treat chickens in the US, there could be an outbreak here, caused by our agricultural practices.
Yes I had h1n1 and survived. I also survived the Hong Kong flu. All very nasty business, believe me you don't want even those relatively mild ones!3 -
No, I wasn't even talking about pressuring Chinese or Vietnamese to change their cultural cuisines. I actually want to know if people are willing to do whatever it takes to stop further Pandemics by rooting out the causes ona biological level?
The problem is human behavior. We start by changing our practices, not wiping out species. These spillover events are largely caused by our behavior and continued encroachment into wild areas.14 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
It's silly to argue that we eliminate bats from the earth rather than take the far more reasonable step of . . . . leaving them alone.
The "extreme" thing about Asia is that they do this to bats and Westerners usually don't. But our tendency to domesticate other animals had led to illness before . . . think bird flu and swine flu, for example.
I agree that we should take the possibility of pandemics caused by cross-species contact seriously. We just disagree on what a reasonable response would look like.13 -
No, I wasn't even talking about pressuring Chinese or Vietnamese to change their cultural cuisines. I actually want to know if people are willing to do whatever it takes to stop further Pandemics by rooting out the causes ona biological level?
I hope not because that idea is ridiculously violent!
Why not just leave bats alone?12 -
Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.14 -
Sadly, I have just heard that an American family my husband knows through his work, who live in Netherlands, after visiting Disneyland Paris, have all returned home and have got the virus. They had not been able to get a refund on their travel expenses for the pre-paid holiday and against advice went on and took the risk of non-essential travel to Paris. They are a family of four. I hope they all make a complete recovery.
Paris was one of the worst areas hit by Covid19 in France and I worry that the numbers of cases reported are not accurate at this time, giving people a false sense of confidence. Our testing is not random in France. I believe it is only for the people who consult a doctor or go to hospital where they can get tested. In my area no one masks or uses social distancing. Particularly young people are oblivious that there is any danger.7 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
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Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
The world of creatures has a value beyond those whom you might or might not personally miss.21 -
It’s a, What came first, the chicken or the egg?, theory. Bats eat mosquitoes. They both carry diseases to humans, and other species. It is extremely arrogant to think the human species deserves existence over other species. It’s natural order and evolution. There’s far and away the vast majority of population concentrated between Asia and Africa. Should there be responsibility for advising other countries of outbreaks? Of course. But leadership needs to be honest with people from the start and not tell us “it’s no big deal”.
It wasn’t something intentional and is no one’s fault. We need to pull together with worldwide effort and cooperation to get through this with the least amount of fatalities.9 -
It looks like Major League Baseball might be close to done. The Marlins are still down 18 or 19 players who tested positive and now the St Louis Cardinals have a big outbreak.
So much of the talk to get sports back playing was that young healthy multi millionaires wouldn't be taking on that much risk. But several of these positive tests are "staff" so like coaches, locker room attendants. These people could be older, might not be in athletic shape, and most aren't making millions. And there is a 27 yr old Red Sox pitcher who is out for at least this season with heart inflammation post-covid , which they "assume" will clear up.
Luckily neither the NBA or the NHL has had any positive cases of a person after they are in the bubble yet. The whole bubble thing might actually work for these one or two month tournaments. I doubt you could actually expect all those people to stay put through months of an entire season though.6 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
I personally like bats and don't care for wolves. Which is exactly why the value of a species cannot be determined by anyone's individual, personal like or dislike of them.14 -
It's not bragging if it's true. I grew up with the grizzly bear, brown and black bear, bison, bats, badgers, moose, elk, deer, antelope. I'm a FFA and 4H country girl and my family still raises livestock. Grizzlies and humans are the top of the food chain out here. Our mileage will always vary because we travel in different packs and move with different herds.
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It looks like Major League Baseball might be close to done. The Marlins are still down 18 or 19 players who tested positive and now the St Louis Cardinals have a big outbreak.
So much of the talk to get sports back playing was that young healthy multi millionaires wouldn't be taking on that much risk. But several of these positive tests are "staff" so like coaches, locker room attendants. These people could be older, might not be in athletic shape, and most aren't making millions. And there is a 27 yr old Red Sox pitcher who is out for at least this season with heart inflammation post-covid , which they "assume" will clear up.
Luckily neither the NBA or the NHL has had any positive cases of a person after they are in the bubble yet. The whole bubble thing might actually work for these one or two month tournaments. I doubt you could actually expect all those people to stay put through months of an entire season though.
I think that all sports leagues are keeping a very close eye on MLB to see what happens when there's no "bubble".
The NFL will be next up in this experiment.
Both the NBA and NHL are talking about starting next season sometime in December...in their home arenas, probably no fans at least at the start.
But all those plans could change if baseball shuts down.3
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