Coronavirus prep
Replies
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missysippy930 wrote: »Here they’re available anyplace there’s a pharmacy. We got ours at Walgreens. No appointment was necessary, but I did call to check first. Check with your employer, but most health insurance covers it 100%.
I actually got mine at Kroger today! I was picking up my meds and saw the signs. It was free! Just like if i had gotten it through work. So that was awesome. I always have a bit of a reaction to the shot and am already feeling it. I get achy, fatigued, and a bit light headed. Also, my arm hurts haha!
The pharmacist did say they have been super busy with people wanting them and that it was a good idea to get it when you can.1 -
On the flu shot subject: At rowing today, I was talking about the shots with a rower buddy who's a pharmacist, asking her advice about best timing for me, as a 60-something. She told me that given the coronavirus situation, her (university based) pharmacy is organizing drive-through flu vaccination clinics for their client population and the university community. It will be two weekdays in each of September and October, at a university facility that usually hosts livestock events and the like, so set up for indoor/sheltered drive through. They may add November dates, too, depending on progress & supplies.
Might be worth looking to see if there are similar things going on in your community, if this is of interest to anyone.2 -
For those in Medicare or any Medicare Advantage programs/HMO health insurance (over 65 y.o.), the flu shots are free and paid for. I heard that Walgreens and CVS pharmacies shots cost about $25/person, and many private insurance pay for them or have small deductible.
I understand that due to the present situation with people out of work or with reduced income, even $25 is a lot. However, the flu is nothing to take lightly and in the long run would "cost" more (financially and health wise), to get down with that infection, while worrying about COVID-19 at the same time.
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I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!19 -
A bunch of the DOCTORS I work with are saying "oh I already had covid I don't have to wear a mask" and that the virus has mutated and is "no longer" as deadly since deaths aren't increasing along with cases.
11 -
I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.10 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, and I can't remember if I heard this on This Week in Virology or one of the science pages I follow, but they said that based on the current rate of spread, it would take another year or two and at least 1 million dead to "naturally" reach herd immunity in the US. I believe they based that on an estimate from countries with more consistent data, and on NYC data, that show a fatality rate of between 0.5% and 1% and a surge in late fall followed by a dip afterwards as a trend that would continue cycling. I'm pretty sure it was on TWIV.
Anyway, I so often post pessimistic stuff in this thread, I wanted to spread some hope on the vaccine side. People in the contagious disease field (who aren't working for the cdc) and have experience with vaccines are pretty well convinced that several of the vaccines currently in phase 3 are safe and are showing solid signs of giving some measure of lasting immunity. Supposedly for a first round, this is great. Of course they do believe phase 3 must be completed fully and results studied before roll out.10 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, and I can't remember if I heard this on This Week in Virology or one of the science pages I follow, but they said that based on the current rate of spread, it would take another year or two and at least 1 million dead to "naturally" reach herd immunity in the US. I believe they based that on an estimate from countries with more consistent data, and on NYC data, that show a fatality rate of between 0.5% and 1% and a surge in late fall followed by a dip afterwards as a trend that would continue cycling. I'm pretty sure it was on TWIV.
Anyway, I so often post pessimistic stuff in this thread, I wanted to spread some hope on the vaccine side. People in the contagious disease field (who aren't working for the cdc) and have experience with vaccines are pretty well convinced that several of the vaccines currently in phase 3 are safe and are showing solid signs of giving some measure of lasting immunity. Supposedly for a first round, this is great. Of course they do believe phase 3 must be completed fully and results studied before roll out.
Another thing I found hopeful, or that at least reinforced what I'd heard elsewhere that was encouraging:
On Science Friday this week, a senior correspondent from Science magazine (so not a researcher, but an educated old hand of another type, with mainstream cred) said that he wasn't pessimistic about a relatively speedy Covid vaccine, despite some critics pointing out that we've not been able to develop an HIV vaccine even after years of research.
His main reasoning was that most people with Covid do recover from the acute phase of the disease, which means that human immune systems are capable of mounting an effective immune response to it. HIV, by contrast, has eventually killed every person who contracted it, before their were effective treatments (except for a truly tiny fraction of a percent - I think it was 0.5% or 0.05%, or something like that - who seem to have a genetically odd response to the HIV virus). Using an immunological strategy (vaccine) is more realistic and relies more on known science in the case of Covid, vs. finding an immunological measure to defeat something like HIV that the immune system of the average person ultimately just can't handle.
(My paraphrase of his comments, of course - it was part of a discussion mainly focused on recent progress concerning HIV prevention/treatment, plus studies of that atypical fraction of a percent who don't die. Recently, scientists found 64 of them, sequenced their entire genome (a seriously nontrival exercise) and found some very interesting things.)
And I'm an ill-informed amateur who, like you I think, looks at Mike's "We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately." and feels pretty skeptical that we'll get to herd immunity before we have a reasonably safe, effective vaccine. (There still seem to be important open scientific questions of immunity among recovered people AFAIK, including duration of that immunity, and whether the recovered person's immunity is strong (virus fails to infect, so can't spread) vs. weak (infected, but minor case, might spread with less realization of that risk.) I fear the timing of 500K dead vs. vaccine availability is more of a horse race, unfortunately.6 -
I will add that all research on HIV was hindered greatly in the beginning and still is no doubt to a lesser extent now by taboos and moralizing. While covid has become over politicized, luckily I don't think that has had "much" affect on who is willing to be involved in research or how much money is being spent.
I've heard that too, that how long and how much immunity is possible is still up for debate. Some discussion of the difference between antibodies and Tcells I think, which kind of went over my head. I get the impression that needing occasional boosters for lasting immunity is not unheard of for novel viruses.5 -
I will add that all research on HIV was hindered greatly in the beginning and still is no doubt to a lesser extent now by taboos and moralizing. While covid has become over politicized, luckily I don't think that has had "much" affect on who is willing to be involved in research or how much money is being spent.
I've heard that too, that how long and how much immunity is possible is still up for debate. Some discussion of the difference between antibodies and Tcells I think, which kind of went over my head. I get the impression that needing occasional boosters for lasting immunity is not unheard of for novel viruses.
And all this is like locking the stable door after the horse got out. Behavioural change in the early stages would've contained the spread and the whole world would look a lot different now.10 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, and I can't remember if I heard this on This Week in Virology or one of the science pages I follow, but they said that based on the current rate of spread, it would take another year or two and at least 1 million dead to "naturally" reach herd immunity in the US. I believe they based that on an estimate from countries with more consistent data, and on NYC data, that show a fatality rate of between 0.5% and 1% and a surge in late fall followed by a dip afterwards as a trend that would continue cycling. I'm pretty sure it was on TWIV.
Anyway, I so often post pessimistic stuff in this thread, I wanted to spread some hope on the vaccine side. People in the contagious disease field (who aren't working for the cdc) and have experience with vaccines are pretty well convinced that several of the vaccines currently in phase 3 are safe and are showing solid signs of giving some measure of lasting immunity. Supposedly for a first round, this is great. Of course they do believe phase 3 must be completed fully and results studied before roll out.
Another thing I found hopeful, or that at least reinforced what I'd heard elsewhere that was encouraging:
On Science Friday this week, a senior correspondent from Science magazine (so not a researcher, but an educated old hand of another type, with mainstream cred) said that he wasn't pessimistic about a relatively speedy Covid vaccine, despite some critics pointing out that we've not been able to develop an HIV vaccine even after years of research.
His main reasoning was that most people with Covid do recover from the acute phase of the disease, which means that human immune systems are capable of mounting an effective immune response to it. HIV, by contrast, has eventually killed every person who contracted it, before their were effective treatments (except for a truly tiny fraction of a percent - I think it was 0.5% or 0.05%, or something like that - who seem to have a genetically odd response to the HIV virus). Using an immunological strategy (vaccine) is more realistic and relies more on known science in the case of Covid, vs. finding an immunological measure to defeat something like HIV that the immune system of the average person ultimately just can't handle.
(My paraphrase of his comments, of course - it was part of a discussion mainly focused on recent progress concerning HIV prevention/treatment, plus studies of that atypical fraction of a percent who don't die. Recently, scientists found 64 of them, sequenced their entire genome (a seriously nontrival exercise) and found some very interesting things.)
And I'm an ill-informed amateur who, like you I think, looks at Mike's "We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately." and feels pretty skeptical that we'll get to herd immunity before we have a reasonably safe, effective vaccine. (There still seem to be important open scientific questions of immunity among recovered people AFAIK, including duration of that immunity, and whether the recovered person's immunity is strong (virus fails to infect, so can't spread) vs. weak (infected, but minor case, might spread with less realization of that risk.) I fear the timing of 500K dead vs. vaccine availability is more of a horse race, unfortunately.
One interesting thing about vaccines is that just because the disease itself doesn’t convey lasting immunity doesn’t mean a vaccine can’t work. Take tetanus, for example. A person who is infected with tetanus and lives through the experience (which is difficult and requires serious support in the hospital but can happen) is not immune to tetanus! Because tetanus travels mainly through the nervous system the actual disease doesn’t provoke much of an immune response, and someone who has had it once can get it again. But as we all know tetanus vaccine exists, and does work. The vaccine produces more of an immune response than the disease itself.
Off topic - Since you mentioned the HIV genetic outliers, I thought I would mention a treatment for HIV which I found super interesting. At the time it was reported as a “cure” for HIV - which is true for the individual it was done to - but unfortunately isn’t something you can just go around doing to everyone with HIV. Basically they killed the guy’s immune system, gave him a bone marrow transplant from someone who was naturally immune to HIV, and his new system then cleared the HIV. I don’t think I ever saw what happened in the long term.7 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, and I can't remember if I heard this on This Week in Virology or one of the science pages I follow, but they said that based on the current rate of spread, it would take another year or two and at least 1 million dead to "naturally" reach herd immunity in the US. I believe they based that on an estimate from countries with more consistent data, and on NYC data, that show a fatality rate of between 0.5% and 1% and a surge in late fall followed by a dip afterwards as a trend that would continue cycling. I'm pretty sure it was on TWIV.
Anyway, I so often post pessimistic stuff in this thread, I wanted to spread some hope on the vaccine side. People in the contagious disease field (who aren't working for the cdc) and have experience with vaccines are pretty well convinced that several of the vaccines currently in phase 3 are safe and are showing solid signs of giving some measure of lasting immunity. Supposedly for a first round, this is great. Of course they do believe phase 3 must be completed fully and results studied before roll out.
Another thing I found hopeful, or that at least reinforced what I'd heard elsewhere that was encouraging:
On Science Friday this week, a senior correspondent from Science magazine (so not a researcher, but an educated old hand of another type, with mainstream cred) said that he wasn't pessimistic about a relatively speedy Covid vaccine, despite some critics pointing out that we've not been able to develop an HIV vaccine even after years of research.
His main reasoning was that most people with Covid do recover from the acute phase of the disease, which means that human immune systems are capable of mounting an effective immune response to it. HIV, by contrast, has eventually killed every person who contracted it, before their were effective treatments (except for a truly tiny fraction of a percent - I think it was 0.5% or 0.05%, or something like that - who seem to have a genetically odd response to the HIV virus). Using an immunological strategy (vaccine) is more realistic and relies more on known science in the case of Covid, vs. finding an immunological measure to defeat something like HIV that the immune system of the average person ultimately just can't handle.
(My paraphrase of his comments, of course - it was part of a discussion mainly focused on recent progress concerning HIV prevention/treatment, plus studies of that atypical fraction of a percent who don't die. Recently, scientists found 64 of them, sequenced their entire genome (a seriously nontrival exercise) and found some very interesting things.)
And I'm an ill-informed amateur who, like you I think, looks at Mike's "We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately." and feels pretty skeptical that we'll get to herd immunity before we have a reasonably safe, effective vaccine. (There still seem to be important open scientific questions of immunity among recovered people AFAIK, including duration of that immunity, and whether the recovered person's immunity is strong (virus fails to infect, so can't spread) vs. weak (infected, but minor case, might spread with less realization of that risk.) I fear the timing of 500K dead vs. vaccine availability is more of a horse race, unfortunately.
One interesting thing about vaccines is that just because the disease itself doesn’t convey lasting immunity doesn’t mean a vaccine can’t work. Take tetanus, for example. A person who is infected with tetanus and lives through the experience (which is difficult and requires serious support in the hospital but can happen) is not immune to tetanus! Because tetanus travels mainly through the nervous system the actual disease doesn’t provoke much of an immune response, and someone who has had it once can get it again. But as we all know tetanus vaccine exists, and does work. The vaccine produces more of an immune response than the disease itself.
Off topic - Since you mentioned the HIV genetic outliers, I thought I would mention a treatment for HIV which I found super interesting. At the time it was reported as a “cure” for HIV - which is true for the individual it was done to - but unfortunately isn’t something you can just go around doing to everyone with HIV. Basically they killed the guy’s immune system, gave him a bone marrow transplant from someone who was naturally immune to HIV, and his new system then cleared the HIV. I don’t think I ever saw what happened in the long term.
I do believe that. I don't think we'll ever reach over 1M dead and I pray I'm right about that. The most encouraging news I've heard is that no matter what antibodies we have, once we've been exposed, our T Cells know how to handle this better, lasting way longer than antibodies.
It's not that I think a vaccine can't be done, but I don't think they will find one with lasting efficacy. It has shaped up not quite like the worst case scenario models (one in which it would come back yearly like the flu but never be stopped), but certainly not the best case either -- the more I read on vaccines, the more I'm convinced we might never have one 100% effective.
The T-Cell news is good because if you're ever exposed, no matter how slight, your T-Cells can possibly remember how to fight it for decades. What they are finding out is that those with milder cases likely had the Asian flu years ago, a different Coronavirus.
Either way, I strongly believe that after this Winter, the numbers will go down dramatically. It will just be a tough six months still to go.5 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
Given the lack of evidence that having covid-19 confers lasting immunity, and the fact that humans have never achieved herd immunity to the coronaviruses responsible for some "common colds," I'm not sure I have a lot of optimism about ever achieving herd immunity for covid-19.11 -
rheddmobile wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, and I can't remember if I heard this on This Week in Virology or one of the science pages I follow, but they said that based on the current rate of spread, it would take another year or two and at least 1 million dead to "naturally" reach herd immunity in the US. I believe they based that on an estimate from countries with more consistent data, and on NYC data, that show a fatality rate of between 0.5% and 1% and a surge in late fall followed by a dip afterwards as a trend that would continue cycling. I'm pretty sure it was on TWIV.
Anyway, I so often post pessimistic stuff in this thread, I wanted to spread some hope on the vaccine side. People in the contagious disease field (who aren't working for the cdc) and have experience with vaccines are pretty well convinced that several of the vaccines currently in phase 3 are safe and are showing solid signs of giving some measure of lasting immunity. Supposedly for a first round, this is great. Of course they do believe phase 3 must be completed fully and results studied before roll out.
Another thing I found hopeful, or that at least reinforced what I'd heard elsewhere that was encouraging:
On Science Friday this week, a senior correspondent from Science magazine (so not a researcher, but an educated old hand of another type, with mainstream cred) said that he wasn't pessimistic about a relatively speedy Covid vaccine, despite some critics pointing out that we've not been able to develop an HIV vaccine even after years of research.
His main reasoning was that most people with Covid do recover from the acute phase of the disease, which means that human immune systems are capable of mounting an effective immune response to it. HIV, by contrast, has eventually killed every person who contracted it, before their were effective treatments (except for a truly tiny fraction of a percent - I think it was 0.5% or 0.05%, or something like that - who seem to have a genetically odd response to the HIV virus). Using an immunological strategy (vaccine) is more realistic and relies more on known science in the case of Covid, vs. finding an immunological measure to defeat something like HIV that the immune system of the average person ultimately just can't handle.
(My paraphrase of his comments, of course - it was part of a discussion mainly focused on recent progress concerning HIV prevention/treatment, plus studies of that atypical fraction of a percent who don't die. Recently, scientists found 64 of them, sequenced their entire genome (a seriously nontrival exercise) and found some very interesting things.)
And I'm an ill-informed amateur who, like you I think, looks at Mike's "We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately." and feels pretty skeptical that we'll get to herd immunity before we have a reasonably safe, effective vaccine. (There still seem to be important open scientific questions of immunity among recovered people AFAIK, including duration of that immunity, and whether the recovered person's immunity is strong (virus fails to infect, so can't spread) vs. weak (infected, but minor case, might spread with less realization of that risk.) I fear the timing of 500K dead vs. vaccine availability is more of a horse race, unfortunately.
One interesting thing about vaccines is that just because the disease itself doesn’t convey lasting immunity doesn’t mean a vaccine can’t work. Take tetanus, for example. A person who is infected with tetanus and lives through the experience (which is difficult and requires serious support in the hospital but can happen) is not immune to tetanus! Because tetanus travels mainly through the nervous system the actual disease doesn’t provoke much of an immune response, and someone who has had it once can get it again. But as we all know tetanus vaccine exists, and does work. The vaccine produces more of an immune response than the disease itself.
Off topic - Since you mentioned the HIV genetic outliers, I thought I would mention a treatment for HIV which I found super interesting. At the time it was reported as a “cure” for HIV - which is true for the individual it was done to - but unfortunately isn’t something you can just go around doing to everyone with HIV. Basically they killed the guy’s immune system, gave him a bone marrow transplant from someone who was naturally immune to HIV, and his new system then cleared the HIV. I don’t think I ever saw what happened in the long term.
Yeah, I'd heard/read that about vaccines, too: That a vaccine can create stronger or longer immunity in some cases than simply having the disease does. Good point about tetanus. There's so much we don't know about Covid-19 yet!
The Science Friday thing went into that bone marrow transpant (BMR) scenario a little, too. There's been more than one of those, I think just a couple, though. It was people who needed BMTs as treatment for some form(s) of cancer. I'm not an expert in the science at all, but my impression is that it wasn't necessarily bone marrow from some special kind of HIV-immune donor, but that the process of BMT involves pretty much killing off the patient's immune system and many other things entirely (which wiped out the HIV, too, in these cases), then the transplant allows them to generate an entirely new immune evironment without the HIV in the picture.
The problem is that BMT carries a high risk of death from the treatment itself. It's been used in the past to treat potentially deadly cancer cases, in circumstances where it would not be used today, because it became apparent with time that the treatment-related mortality rates were simply too high to tolerate. Because HIV is now fairly well managed with a drug regimen, it would not be reasonable to use BMT to treat HIV because of the high risk. (FWIW, I do know a small number of people who had bone marrow transplants, including one who had, by her self report, two of them.)6 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
@MikePfirrman
I google imaged but could not find this. If you can, would you please post it on the meme thread?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10789131/coronavirus-memes/
ETA: nvm, I found it on FB and posted it
2 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
Given the lack of evidence that having covid-19 confers lasting immunity, and the fact that humans have never achieved herd immunity to the coronaviruses responsible for some "common colds," I'm not sure I have a lot of optimism about ever achieving herd immunity for covid-19.
You might be right Lynn, but this article is related to what I was talking about with the T Cells. I'm hoping that this is accurate and, at least to me, it's one of the most optimistic things I've read about Covid-19.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article245092810.html?ocid=uxbndlbing2 -
@MikePfirrman Yesterday, we went UP to the higher elevations to get away from all of the pesky tourists swarming this place. We couldn't get away from them. I would pull the truck over to take photos and 10 cars would pull over right behind me. Everyone would jump out and run over to stand right by me. They all wanted to see what I was looking at. I realized these people were desperate to see wildlife of any kind. It was sad because they're literally stomping everything into dust. Talk about a herd mentality. Every year it's another million or two above the previous year. 'Rona hasn't slowed them down one iota. The motels are all No Vacancy, stacked on top of each other in the restaurants, standing outside around the block.
I'm cabbaging onto your optimism and going along for the ride.7 -
I went to Bath and Body Works yesterday with my DD.It was the first time at a mall since last October. I usually do most shopping on line. They were limiting the number of customers in the store to 24 and we had a short wait outside the store. Markers on the floor outside and inside with directional arrows. The people in front of us stood right behind the people in front of them, and the lady behind us was right behind us. I turned around and pointed to the footprints she was supposed to stand on. When our turn came up, we walked in and followed the arrows pointing to the back, which people were paying no attention to. Sigh......people just don’t get it. There weren’t many people in the mall hallways paying attention to directional arrows either. We got the items we needed an left. There were reasons I didn’t like malls pre-Covid-19, and everything I dislike about malls has been exacerbated by Covid-19. Lesson learned.13
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yeah, I'd heard/read that about vaccines, too: That a vaccine can create stronger or longer immunity in some cases than simply having the disease does. Good point about tetanus. There's so much we don't know about Covid-19 yet!
I dont think this is the norm though - and tetanus is a bit of an anomaly and also isnt an infectious disease - as in one person doesnt spread it to another like most vaccine preventable diseases.
Mostly immunity from vaccine and immunity from that disease are roughly equal
Measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox - both disease and vaccine usually confer lifelong immunity
Whooping cough - both disease and vaccine confer immunity of around 7 - 10 years.
some common examples.
I think it more likely Covid will be an ongoing vaccine that one has to repeat - more like annual flu vaccine than one off courses like MMR.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I can't vouch for this, but I saw on FB that GoodRx has a coupon for the flu shot. Every little bit helps!
My parents and my brother and his family went to the Outer Banks for the week. Said there was a ton of traffic, which makes me more nervous than I already was for them. They aren't really crowded places people and a lot of touristy stuff is closed, so it's probably not a big deal. It just drives me nuts that my brother and SIL seem to think it's fine for them and my nephews to be seeing my parents on a regular basis. I am only seeing them rarely and keeping my distance as much as they'll let me, because as careful as I am in my own life, nobody's perfect.
I can't believe how many people fell for that cdc report that said 94% of the deaths had comorbidities so it's no big deal. So frustrating!
There's a meme going around from Science Doesn't Care what you Think on FB. It's hysterical. It says that only 1% of those killed by dinosaurs was actually only killed by dinosaurs (those eaten totally in one bite). Most died along with detached heads and total loss of bodily fluids, so reopen the park!!
But you are right. That 94% thing did exactly what it was intended to do -- tell everyone that even leaned a little bit in that direction that it was all some hoax all along. We will have herd immunity and 500K dead before we have a vaccine, unfortunately.
Given the lack of evidence that having covid-19 confers lasting immunity, and the fact that humans have never achieved herd immunity to the coronaviruses responsible for some "common colds," I'm not sure I have a lot of optimism about ever achieving herd immunity for covid-19.
You might be right Lynn, but this article is related to what I was talking about with the T Cells. I'm hoping that this is accurate and, at least to me, it's one of the most optimistic things I've read about Covid-19.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article245092810.html?ocid=uxbndlbing
Thanks for the link.
ETA: I hope I'm wrong, to the extent that it even makes sense to talk about being right or wrong about a pessimistic outlook on a subject that I think every rational person would agree we don't have enough info to make predictions. Just noting certain facts that don't encourage me to expect human populations will develop herd immunity through virus exposure before there's a vaccine.
4 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »@MikePfirrman Yesterday, we went UP to the higher elevations to get away from all of the pesky tourists swarming this place. We couldn't get away from them. I would pull the truck over to take photos and 10 cars would pull over right behind me. Everyone would jump out and run over to stand right by me. They all wanted to see what I was looking at. I realized these people were desperate to see wildlife of any kind. It was sad because they're literally stomping everything into dust. Talk about a herd mentality. Every year it's another million or two above the previous year. 'Rona hasn't slowed them down one iota. The motels are all No Vacancy, stacked on top of each other in the restaurants, standing outside around the block.
I'm cabbaging onto your optimism and going along for the ride.
Just curious. Did all these people wear masks?1 -
Speaking of Herd Stupidity, oops, I mean Herd Immunity, German study on cell phone data just came out related to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-in-south-dakota-in-august-linked-to-more-than-250000-coronavirus-cases-study-finds-2020-09-08?siteid=yhoof211 -
My company just announced that all in US and several other countries that can will work remotely until at least January, 2021, extended from October, 2020.
Getting sick of this stuff.4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Speaking of Herd Stupidity, oops, I mean Herd Immunity, German study on cell phone data just came out related to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-in-south-dakota-in-august-linked-to-more-than-250000-coronavirus-cases-study-finds-2020-09-08?siteid=yhoof2
So $786 million was injected into the South Dakota economy due to the rally, and the state collected $1.26 million in tax revenue, but it's gonna cost the rest of the country $12 billion in health care costs for treating infections linked to the rally and spread out all across the country? Nice work.
16 -
On their way home from Sturgis many of them traveled through here.^^Not a mask in sight. It's been that way throughout the summer. Ran into a new clerk at the grocery store who was wishing there were more things in town for the tourists to do. Everything shows on my face even with a mask on.
Second verse same as the first. Here we go again. It's Groundhog Day. We haven't moved very far since the beginning of this thread. Now they're talking about some with long term heart damage. It reminds me of rheumatic fever. They keep telling us to take our flu shots now on the radio. This place is a clearinghouse for everyone from all over the world. They come here and we've been exposed to everything they've brought with them.
I've been doing all I know how to do to keep the folkaronies safe. I run all of their errands for them. Take them to their appointments. I loaded them up for a picnic in the middle of the woods. Threw an army blanket on the ground and unloaded the picnic. Had to keep my eyes open for grizzlies all around because they're really on the move right now and they are very hungry. Sightings everywhere. They knew early winter was coming and now it is here.
So far, I have only one benefit. A tiny hiney.
I have been running UP and down so many flights of stairs, loading and unloading every box ordered from Ammy, groceries, irrigating and mowing. Feeding critters. I visit here for a respite but you could bounce a quarter off my rearend. That's the only benefit. 13 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Speaking of Herd Stupidity, oops, I mean Herd Immunity, German study on cell phone data just came out related to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-in-south-dakota-in-august-linked-to-more-than-250000-coronavirus-cases-study-finds-2020-09-08?siteid=yhoof2
So $786 million was injected into the South Dakota economy due to the rally, and the state collected $1.26 million in tax revenue, but it's gonna cost the rest of the country $12 billion in health care costs for treating infections linked to the rally and spread out all across the country? Nice work.
Trillions are being borrowed to cover pandemic cost and we do not have to pay it back. That responsibility will fall on the grand kids.
What COVID-19 is doing to many retirement income sources is not funny. Short term costs are huge but is just a drop in the bucket when compared to the long costs. 6 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »On their way home from Sturgis many of them traveled through here.^^Not a mask in sight. It's been that way throughout the summer. Ran into a new clerk at the grocery store who was wishing there were more things in town for the tourists to do. Everything shows on my face even with a mask on.
Second verse same as the first. Here we go again. It's Groundhog Day. We haven't moved very far since the beginning of this thread. Now they're talking about some with long term heart damage. It reminds me of rheumatic fever. They keep telling us to take our flu shots now on the radio. This place is a clearinghouse for everyone from all over the world. They come here and we've been exposed to everything they've brought with them.
[snip]
Even back when everybody was saying covid-19 was just like the flu, I kept remembering that my grandfather was invalided out of the army during WWI because of heart damage from the "Spanish" flu. The military paid him a pension for more than 60 years because of that. (To be fair, he continued to work for most of his life as a farmer and in various side gigs that were at least mildly physical. But he wasn't healthy enough to be used as cannon fodder in the trenches in France, apparently.)10 -
This is the latest, and we are only at the beginning of the school year with many places open for in person classes.
Half a million US children have been diagnosed with Covid-19
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/08/health/half-million-us-children-covid-wellness/index.html5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Speaking of Herd Stupidity, oops, I mean Herd Immunity, German study on cell phone data just came out related to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-in-south-dakota-in-august-linked-to-more-than-250000-coronavirus-cases-study-finds-2020-09-08?siteid=yhoof2
So $786 million was injected into the South Dakota economy due to the rally, and the state collected $1.26 million in tax revenue, but it's gonna cost the rest of the country $12 billion in health care costs for treating infections linked to the rally and spread out all across the country? Nice work.
Trillions are being borrowed to cover pandemic cost and we do not have to pay it back. That responsibility will fall on the grand kids.What COVID-19 is doing to many retirement income sources is not funny. Short term costs are huge but is just a drop in the bucket when compared to the long costs.
Can you say a little more about what you mean in the bolded? I kinda don't get it, so I think I'm missing something.
The main retirement sources I can think of are pensions, social security, and investments.
Pensions are rare these days, maybe endangered by companies going out of business or disastrously retrenching, but I haven't heard/read much to this effect. Social security does seem to be threatened by at least one of the strategies for putting more money in people's pockets in the short run, but it remains to be seen how that will play out. (Ideology seems to enter in here, but I won't go further than that general statement to avoid partisan political talk.) Investments, so far, if we mean stocks and bonds primarily, seem to be much more even keel so far than one might've expected. I would've thought more people would be dependent on that source now/future, because of defined contribution plans having replaced pensions in many cases.
What are you seeing, that makes you say the bolded? If it's just the deficit spending worrying you in general, related to retirement, what are scenario(s) are you visualizing?
I take your point about the grandkids.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Speaking of Herd Stupidity, oops, I mean Herd Immunity, German study on cell phone data just came out related to the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-in-south-dakota-in-august-linked-to-more-than-250000-coronavirus-cases-study-finds-2020-09-08?siteid=yhoof2
So $786 million was injected into the South Dakota economy due to the rally, and the state collected $1.26 million in tax revenue, but it's gonna cost the rest of the country $12 billion in health care costs for treating infections linked to the rally and spread out all across the country? Nice work.
Trillions are being borrowed to cover pandemic cost and we do not have to pay it back. That responsibility will fall on the grand kids.What COVID-19 is doing to many retirement income sources is not funny. Short term costs are huge but is just a drop in the bucket when compared to the long costs.
Can you say a little more about what you mean in the bolded? I kinda don't get it, so I think I'm missing something.
The main retirement sources I can think of are pensions, social security, and investments.
Pensions are rare these days, maybe endangered by companies going out of business or disastrously retrenching, but I haven't heard/read much to this effect. Social security does seem to be threatened by at least one of the strategies for putting more money in people's pockets in the short run, but it remains to be seen how that will play out. (Ideology seems to enter in here, but I won't go further than that general statement to avoid partisan political talk.) Investments, so far, if we mean stocks and bonds primarily, seem to be much more even keel so far than one might've expected. I would've thought more people would be dependent on that source now/future, because of defined contribution plans having replaced pensions in many cases.
What are you seeing, that makes you say the bolded? If it's just the deficit spending worrying you in general, related to retirement, what are scenario(s) are you visualizing?
I take your point about the grandkids.
Yes, you are absolutely right on pensions and social security. I would expect that most who have investments for retirement and are actually drawing from their retirement should have that retirement money now in conservative / low risk and low return investments. This is different than someone like me who is decades from retirement and can justify investing in higher risk / higher return funds. But either way, the markets as a whole do not seem to be affected much by the pandemic - at least not negatively.1
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