Coronavirus prep

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  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    missysippy930 wrote: »
    paperpudding wrote: »
    I didn't click disagree either - but I do disagree that the fact that prescription med's can have side effects and these are listed for the public to know about, is scary stuff.

    No, it isn't - it is just the obvious reality that medication can have side effects.

    That’s not what I meant. It’s scary that they are rushing the vaccine through. Prescription drugs follow guidelines before they are able to prescribe them to the general public. Still there are risks to some people. It takes years, not months. It’s up to each of us to discuss with our doctors potential risks involved with prescription drugs they want to prescribe for us. Educate ourselves.

    It’s scary that they are trying to push a vaccine through so quickly with no long term possible effects. There is something to say for safely proceeding.

    Why do you think that the US is one of only two countries that allow tv advertising of prescription drugs? The almighty dollar!!! We pay a lot more for everything related to healthcare than any other country by a lot.


    Well it might not have been what you meant but it is what it came across as.
    You asked why people disagreed and I think they may have disagreed with what you seemed to be saying there - as did I.

    Why the US allows advertising of prescription med's and other countries do not and why your health care system is as it is - another topic altogether.

    Has nothing to do with safety of vaccine trials or of prescribed medications.

  • durden
    durden Posts: 3,592 MFP Staff
    Quick reminder going forward; Please stay on topic and avoid discussions of divisive content.

    If you would like to review the forum guidelines, please visit the following link: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
  • kushiel1
    kushiel1 Posts: 96 Member
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    It has become abundantly clear in the past few days that a vaccine is our only hope of controlling this pandemic. Only local and state governments are trying to manage it and contain it any longer.

    It is a race between Herd Immunity and a vaccine that is uncertain to work.

    That whole CDC release of 94% had comorbidities did exactly what it was intended to do -- confuse those prone to believing that it wasn't serious in the first place to completely minimize it and go on with their lives while not worrying about spreading it to others. Super spreader events galore.

    Stay safe people. Fall and Winter will be brutal.

    Also read something yesterday about how Covid-19 is actually destroying DNA in heart muscles. The doctor that was interviewed for the article said "it left a black hole in the middle of cells" and "terrified him" so bad he couldn't sleep that night. They now think up to 10% of folks could have permanent heart damage.

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/04/carnage-in-lab-dish-shows-how-coronavirus-may-damage-heart/

    But heart conditions are common in viruses and if the incidence of serious heart issues is "only" 10% due to Covid that means that it is LESS than the flu.

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/heartdisease.htm

    Not saying that covid isn't a serious issue, but all viruses can and do cause other conditions and kill people. It isn't something limited to Covid and yet I don't see people so upset about the flu when that can cause some serious side effects as well.
  • kushiel1
    kushiel1 Posts: 96 Member
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    kushiel1 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    It has become abundantly clear in the past few days that a vaccine is our only hope of controlling this pandemic. Only local and state governments are trying to manage it and contain it any longer.

    It is a race between Herd Immunity and a vaccine that is uncertain to work.

    That whole CDC release of 94% had comorbidities did exactly what it was intended to do -- confuse those prone to believing that it wasn't serious in the first place to completely minimize it and go on with their lives while not worrying about spreading it to others. Super spreader events galore.

    Stay safe people. Fall and Winter will be brutal.

    Also read something yesterday about how Covid-19 is actually destroying DNA in heart muscles. The doctor that was interviewed for the article said "it left a black hole in the middle of cells" and "terrified him" so bad he couldn't sleep that night. They now think up to 10% of folks could have permanent heart damage.

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/09/04/carnage-in-lab-dish-shows-how-coronavirus-may-damage-heart/

    But heart conditions are common in viruses and if the incidence of serious heart issues is "only" 10% due to Covid that means that it is LESS than the flu.

    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/heartdisease.htm

    Not saying that covid isn't a serious issue, but all viruses can and do cause other conditions and kill people. It isn't something limited to Covid and yet I don't see people so upset about the flu when that can cause some serious side effects as well.

    Weird thing to say in a thread where people have been actively discussing getting flu vaccinations.

    FYI, that link isn't talking about flu CAUSING heart conditions that didn't previously exist. It's talking about how the flu impacts people with pre-existing heart conditions. Did you mean to post something else?

    Included in the article (though you are also correct that it affects those with heart conditions more) - Studies have shown that flu illness is associated with an increase of heart attacks and stroke. A 2018 studyexternal icon found that the risk of heart attack was 6 times higher within a week of confirmed flu infection. These findings were most pronounced for older adults and those experiencing their first heart attack. Additionally, a 2020 studyexternal icon that looked at more than 80,000 U.S. adults hospitalized with flu over eight flu seasons (2010-11 through 2017-18) found that sudden, serious heart complications were common and occurred in one out of every eight patients (~12% of patients). Direct quote from the article.

    Also I was directly responding to someone who stated that Covid is causing up to 10% of people to have serious heart conditions - well the flu can cause 12% including those who also never had heart conditions before.

    I'm just saying that everyone is so concerned about Covid but all viruses can cause Heart conditions as all viruses can attack heart muscle.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Eduardo Rodriguez, the Red Sox pitcher who is suffering from a covid related heart condition, was not hospitalized to the best of my knowledge. He said he was quite sick for a week or so, then once he felt better he started working out to rejoin the team. He has felt fine ever since, which means if he wasn't an MLB player who got all the medical test bells and whistles to clear him to play, he wouldn't have known he now has a chronic heart condition. If he was just Eddie Rodriguez the accountant, he would think he was back to normal. He'd probably have an irregular heart beat every once and awhile, but might not seek medical treatment for it until he had chest pain or even a stroke caused by it some day. Heck, depending on where in the US he lived, he might not even have been tested for covid in the first place.

    The data we currently have is incomplete. Drawing conclusions based solely on this data and not considering what actual experts in contagious disease infer from other viruses (not FB experts or ophthalmologists with a you tube channel or doc-in-a-box chain owners) is misguided IMHO. Not erring on the side of caution when long term complications are still an unknown quantity makes no sense to me.

    Are you suggesting accountants don't pay attention to our health?!

    Just kidding... I understand your point.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    Yes, good point. Lots of factors, complicated. I'm hopeful that these groups organizing will not only provide some emotional/practical support for the folks involved, but also make it easier for potential researchers to find research subjects to pursue these questions further.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    The thing about that is that people with comorbidities are more likely to be aware of their health, since they are more likely to be under the regular care of a doctor. I’m too lazy to look for evidence right now but there have been multiple studies on this effect - someone who is “healthy” may go for years without seeing a doctor, while someone with diabetes or asthma is likely to see a doctor twice a year in order to get lab work and prescriptions refilled. It seems unlikely to me that someone with known previous comorbidities is more likely to have undiagnosed illnesses which just coincidentally emerged following a bout of Covid than someone whose previous health status was “healthy, as far as I know.”

    Not everyone with a comorbidity knows and/or is getting treated for it. As an example 20% of people with high blood pressure don't know it.

    I'm pretty sure a number of people with excess bodyfat aren't going to the doctor unless they are having a current issue.

    http://www.measureuppressuredown.com/PR/highBPStats_pr.asp#:~:text=High blood pressure (hypertension) is,not know they have it.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    The thing about that is that people with comorbidities are more likely to be aware of their health, since they are more likely to be under the regular care of a doctor. I’m too lazy to look for evidence right now but there have been multiple studies on this effect - someone who is “healthy” may go for years without seeing a doctor, while someone with diabetes or asthma is likely to see a doctor twice a year in order to get lab work and prescriptions refilled. It seems unlikely to me that someone with known previous comorbidities is more likely to have undiagnosed illnesses which just coincidentally emerged following a bout of Covid than someone whose previous health status was “healthy, as far as I know.”

    That's a good point.

    Also, thinking over this subthread, if long-term complications are more common in people with pre-existing conditions (as they may well be, dunno), and the complications are things not experienced in similar percentages by other people with similar conditions who didn't get this Coronavirus, I think that's still useful information that we'd want to have. We can learn things that could help people like them, but we may also learn things about this virus's nature that affect treatment of Covid or avoidance of long-term effects even among people without those pre-existing conditions. We don't know what we may learn until we learn it. (I'm aware that lines of research will need to be prioritized.)

    Even if some long-term issues *only* occur in people in pre-existing conditions, that's not a reason to care less about understanding, avoiding or remedying the long term issues, is it? Putting it more baldly and extremely than anyone has or would, it wouldn't be very ethically defensible to think "it's OK if people had strokes, because they were diabetic (or whatever) in the first place", IMO.

    Clearly, if it turns out that, say, X% of diabetics have strokes within 5 years after any serious virus, or even with no virus at all, and it's still X% with Covid, or something like that, that's relevant and may indicate Covid isn't in fact special in these ways. (Note: Examples are pure invention, to clarify a line of thought. I have no idea whether diabetics have strokes after Covid, or in general, beyond population norms.)

    (Rhedd, none of the above is intended as disagreement with you, but rather intended just to continue this line of conversation. I think your points are insightful. I also wonder whether people with pre-existing conditions might be over-selected for support groups like this because more symptom sensitive (not hypochondriacal, just more self-aware), or to become initial members of these groups because they're more accustomed than the general population to forming/joining support groups.)
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,598 Member
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    The thing about that is that people with comorbidities are more likely to be aware of their health, since they are more likely to be under the regular care of a doctor. I’m too lazy to look for evidence right now but there have been multiple studies on this effect - someone who is “healthy” may go for years without seeing a doctor, while someone with diabetes or asthma is likely to see a doctor twice a year in order to get lab work and prescriptions refilled. It seems unlikely to me that someone with known previous comorbidities is more likely to have undiagnosed illnesses which just coincidentally emerged following a bout of Covid than someone whose previous health status was “healthy, as far as I know.”

    Not everyone with a comorbidity knows and/or is getting treated for it. As an example 20% of people with high blood pressure don't know it.

    I'm pretty sure a number of people with excess bodyfat aren't going to the doctor unless they are having a current issue.

    http://www.measureuppressuredown.com/PR/highBPStats_pr.asp#:~:text=High blood pressure (hypertension) is,not know they have it.

    By far, the largest comorbidity was pneumonia, which was likely caused by Covid-19. People weren't laying in bed, in the hospital with pneumonia and then caught Covid-19, they got Covid-19 and then it developed into the Cytokine Storm, which caused pneumonia, which ultimately killed them.

    There are a lot of preexisting conditions as well but pneumonia is what is actually killing most. Now, if preexisting conditions make you more prone to develop it, that's certainly a possibility. But when people are currently pointing to that 94% number having comorbidities as a sign it's not serious, that's just silliness.

    If you are overweight, get Covid-19, then it develops into pneumonia and go into an ICU and pass, there's 3 comorbidities (at least) -- overweight, pneumonia and Covid-19. But the pneumonia is almost always what is killing people. But the pneumonia nearly always happens as a result of getting Covid-19, not vice versa.

    I could be confused, but I think the subthread TheOldGuy was commenting on was talking about the interplay of pre-existing conditions with the "long hauler" people - those with long-term after effects, after recovering from the acute phase of Covid . . . rather than the comorbidities kerfluffle concerning what's on death certificates as cause of death.
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    The thing about that is that people with comorbidities are more likely to be aware of their health, since they are more likely to be under the regular care of a doctor. I’m too lazy to look for evidence right now but there have been multiple studies on this effect - someone who is “healthy” may go for years without seeing a doctor, while someone with diabetes or asthma is likely to see a doctor twice a year in order to get lab work and prescriptions refilled. It seems unlikely to me that someone with known previous comorbidities is more likely to have undiagnosed illnesses which just coincidentally emerged following a bout of Covid than someone whose previous health status was “healthy, as far as I know.”

    Not everyone with a comorbidity knows and/or is getting treated for it. As an example 20% of people with high blood pressure don't know it.

    I'm pretty sure a number of people with excess bodyfat aren't going to the doctor unless they are having a current issue.

    http://www.measureuppressuredown.com/PR/highBPStats_pr.asp#:~:text=High blood pressure (hypertension) is,not know they have it.

    By far, the largest comorbidity was pneumonia, which was likely caused by Covid-19. People weren't laying in bed, in the hospital with pneumonia and then caught Covid-19, they got Covid-19 and then it developed into the Cytokine Storm, which caused pneumonia, which ultimately killed them.

    There are a lot of preexisting conditions as well but pneumonia is what is actually killing most. Now, if preexisting conditions make you more prone to develop it, that's certainly a possibility. But when people are currently pointing to that 94% number having comorbidities as a sign it's not serious, that's just silliness.

    If you are overweight, get Covid-19, then it develops into pneumonia and go into an ICU and pass, there's 3 comorbidities (at least) -- overweight, pneumonia and Covid-19. But the pneumonia is almost always what is killing people. But the pneumonia nearly always happens as a result of getting Covid-19, not vice versa.

    I could be confused, but I think the subthread TheOldGuy was commenting on was talking about the interplay of pre-existing conditions with the "long hauler" people - those with long-term after effects, after recovering from the acute phase of Covid . . . rather than the comorbidities kerfluffle concerning what's on death certificates as cause of death.

    I know he was, but I also think that many are assuming (maybe I'm wrong) that since only 6% are dying with only Covid-19 that many that are long haulers are even rarer and all have preexisting conditions. I've read about many, and mind you that there isn't a lot of data so maybe there are one offs, cases where people are very healthy with no pre-existing condition and become a "long hauler". But I know he was referring to that.
  • MikePfirrman
    MikePfirrman Posts: 3,307 Member
    Unfortunately, so much emphasis has been on just saving lives that the "long haulers" have been so forgotten that they are forming groups and finding data on themselves. This will hopefully give the rest of us some answers if there are traits in common among these folks the more they learn.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/08/12/1006602/covid-19-long-haulers-are-organizing-online-to-study-themselves/
  • Noreenmarie1234
    Noreenmarie1234 Posts: 7,492 Member
    I thought this was interesting that many with mild or even asymptomatic are showing lasting effects on the heart. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351

    Only time will tell the real long term effect it will have on people.
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,496 Member
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    MikePfirrman wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    rheddmobile wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    There are starting to be some (big) groups of Covid survivors who are experiencing continuing serious problems of one sort or another. Now, I know that ranks of such a group are at risk of swelling from some people who are more hypochondriacal than profoundly physically affected, but it's interesting and telling that this is an emerging phenomenon. Some of the groups are working to foster research on the subject, which should be more useful than the anecdotes, in the long run.

    This is one example of reporting on this:

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/10/covid-19-survivor-corps

    Plus many had comorbidity issues before Covid. Is the Covid causing the problem or something they already had manifesting itself? Just another factor to try and adjust for.

    The thing about that is that people with comorbidities are more likely to be aware of their health, since they are more likely to be under the regular care of a doctor. I’m too lazy to look for evidence right now but there have been multiple studies on this effect - someone who is “healthy” may go for years without seeing a doctor, while someone with diabetes or asthma is likely to see a doctor twice a year in order to get lab work and prescriptions refilled. It seems unlikely to me that someone with known previous comorbidities is more likely to have undiagnosed illnesses which just coincidentally emerged following a bout of Covid than someone whose previous health status was “healthy, as far as I know.”

    Not everyone with a comorbidity knows and/or is getting treated for it. As an example 20% of people with high blood pressure don't know it.

    I'm pretty sure a number of people with excess bodyfat aren't going to the doctor unless they are having a current issue.

    http://www.measureuppressuredown.com/PR/highBPStats_pr.asp#:~:text=High blood pressure (hypertension) is,not know they have it.

    By far, the largest comorbidity was pneumonia, which was likely caused by Covid-19. People weren't laying in bed, in the hospital with pneumonia and then caught Covid-19, they got Covid-19 and then it developed into the Cytokine Storm, which caused pneumonia, which ultimately killed them.

    There are a lot of preexisting conditions as well but pneumonia is what is actually killing most. Now, if preexisting conditions make you more prone to develop it, that's certainly a possibility. But when people are currently pointing to that 94% number having comorbidities as a sign it's not serious, that's just silliness.

    If you are overweight, get Covid-19, then it develops into pneumonia and go into an ICU and pass, there's 3 comorbidities (at least) -- overweight, pneumonia and Covid-19. But the pneumonia is almost always what is killing people. But the pneumonia nearly always happens as a result of getting Covid-19, not vice versa.

    I could be confused, but I think the subthread TheOldGuy was commenting on was talking about the interplay of pre-existing conditions with the "long hauler" people - those with long-term after effects, after recovering from the acute phase of Covid . . . rather than the comorbidities kerfluffle concerning what's on death certificates as cause of death.

    I know he was, but I also think that many are assuming (maybe I'm wrong) that since only 6% are dying with only Covid-19 that many that are long haulers are even rarer and all have preexisting conditions. I've read about many, and mind you that there isn't a lot of data so maybe there are one offs, cases where people are very healthy with no pre-existing condition and become a "long hauler". But I know he was referring to that.

    Yes I was talking about preexisting conditions.

    Thing is, since the majority of the US population has 1 or more of the preexisting conditions it stands that the long haulers do also.

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