Coronavirus prep

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  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,227 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    Masks are as mandatory as ever in Ontario and apparently they're not considering changing that for a while yet.

    Not so in both Alberta and BC where it is mask-less in July. I am gratified that at least the airports seem to be more reasonable in terms of keeping to mask mandates especially given the crowding. But grocery stores? Gone are the no side by side bagging and single path and other movement restrictions.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,011 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    I am and remain a bit perplexed with some of our decisions.

    So in Canada we are demanding that Maria from Greece--who has received two doses of Pfizer, self tests once a week for work (twice for hospitality), and gets a third party rapid test every week she travels to a nearby island before being allowed in an open air seating available ferry boat, and who would board after a negative PCR test--we are demanding that Maria quarantines for two weeks on arrival, which means she is staying home.

    Yet yesterday I was in two fully (I mean can we please have your hand luggage to check it under for free type fully) full Air Canada/Westjet flights (Listing both alphabetically to protect yesterday's guilty party since they're no different in reality).

    We get people to arrive at the airport more than an hour ahead of the flight these days. Even though they're currently discounted these tickets are not exactly free. They also include a good $45 to $75 in airport Improvement and post 9/11 security fees that we all grumble about and yet we end up paying

    And we cannot throw in and demand a $20 rapid test before boarding everybody in each other's lap?

    And we can demand that people match their ID and have no choice about going through the thermal imaging / metal detection replacement scanner and have their temperatures checked, but we can't demand that the produce proof of two vaccinations and or clean rapid test and or both?

    How long are we quarantining the migrant agricultural workers or the work permit workers at the meat plants?

    Why are masks no longer obligatory for staff and customers in large and small grocery, department, and any other stores? Yes it is annoying that I can't sip my coffee while shopping. But it's not as if the primary purpose of going shopping is to drink my coffee. So wearing a mask doesn't seem to be The end of the world in that context

    And yet we want to quarantine Maria from Greece for 2 weeks.

    And I'm being told by smokers who have had no shots and who are allowed to sit next to me in the plane for a few hours that it's too complicated to get an appointment for a shot.. in the same province where it took one phone call for me to get one for the next morning as an out of province visitor (and yes this means I got my second shot one week before my scheduled appointment at my own province instead of cancelling and re-booking it for after my return)

    There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?

    Which sort of boggles my mind.

    Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.

    The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.

    And before somebody mentions that it costs $150 to do a rapid test commercially, I am talking about large-scale government supported intervention. A UNICEF page that popped up on a search is talking about a reduction in rapid test costs from four US dollars to $2.50.

    So I don't think that my $10 to $20 range as the cost to enter a crowded venue and potentially with an app indicated that you've already been tested today is that far out of line ..


    I'm not sure how I feel about your testing focus, but as far as I'm concerned proof of vaxx or consecutive negative tests should be required for the time being for any crowded public places, like a plane. Especially in situations where masking isn't realistic or would be stressful for employees to enforce.

    I know on TWiV they are very disappointed with the lack of improvement in testing. Theres still disagreement on what exactly is the best particle to test for, and how to determine whether someone is contagious or not. They seem to feel an inexpensive, universal, better targeted test is realistic, but there just hasn't been a push to get it figured out.

    I'd bet the professed "logic" of poor Maria's plight is stopping new variants from spreading internationally. But it's pretty clear that's an unwinnable fight, no matter how long you quarantine visitors for. Shockingly (sarcasm) it seems decisions for individual situations are being made with no consideration to other restrictions and with priorities outside of public health. So frustrating.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    There's many instances where Gale and I do not fully agree; but, I'm wondering if he's right and we're not trying to achieve herd immunity by getting the unvaccinated sick?

    In the US I hear this a lot (from vaccinated people, in that I only know one unvaccinated person over 12, and she is anti covid vaxx) in a frustrated kind of way -- like oh, well, I guess we'll get herd immunity somehow, but what can one do, and it's their choice, not my problem. I think there's huge covid fatigue and also some degree of worry, in that people are aware of possible variants and so on, but also some degree of anger/frustration (as noted) in that most vaccinated people are more likely to be in areas where bad outbreaks were had or were the people who actually tried to follow the rules. Hard to say one should keep acting as if protecting the unvaxxed is #1 priority if one sees them as those running through stores in violation of the rules screaming "freedom" (Braveheart voice) while one has been following the rules and recommendations since March '20.
    Because in spite of my rant above I'm not yet 2 weeks post second shot and this is not for lack of trying. Which means that there are still quite a few people who are not vaccine hesitant and who have not quite yet fully had their chance for two shots plus 2 weeks.

    I don't think this is the case in the US, although I sympathize, so the circumstances are different.
    The option of witnessed self tests, or rapid tests before entering crowded venues exist and in the whole security context and lineups and general costs I don't see how they would be the end of the world. Certainly not as bad as the increased health costs and toll on people.

    But aren't these not actually accurate? I'm not opposed in various circumstances, but I thought that's what they were using at the White House when Trump and others contracted it. Here, I am worried since Lollapalooza is happening (which I am okay with with adequate protections) with only either proof of vaxx or negative test w/in 72 hours, which seems unlikely to be enough even with vaxx proof more likely to be genuine in all cases. (Also we are doing the quarantine from higher case states again thing which has always been absurd bc it's 100% honor system and not enforced.) We don't need a new spike.

    I do think the rapid tests are better than nothing for big stuff like Lolla and better than temp checks -- they are/have been used at various universities.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    In places like the U.S. where vaccines are now easy to obtain, it definitely makes sense to require airline passengers provide proof of vaccination. Other countries, though? Aside from helping them get vaccines, and restricting travel until then, what else can you do?!
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
  • PAV8888
    PAV8888 Posts: 14,227 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    So you think that a rapid test for every passenger isn't too onerous, but taking responsibility for your own health by checking a website for exposure information is?

    :error::error::error:
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited July 2021
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    So you think that a rapid test for every passenger isn't too onerous, but taking responsibility for your own health by checking a website for exposure information is?

    :error::error::error:

    Um, check the timing of the comments, as well as your comment I replied to. Am I supposed to have anticipated what 33gail33 might say after I posted? Once again, re the comment of yours I responded to I can't figure out who you thought you were arguing with, but it sure seemed like it was directed toward my post even though I said nothing about Canada or airplane policy.

    Specifically, this comment by you: "So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected" seemed to be responsive to a comment by me given a prior response in the same post to something about testing in my post that had absolutely nothing to do with Canada or airplanes. Nor do I think anyone else was talking about airplane flights.

    I haven't flown since covid started, and I suspect no US flight could be relied on to even know if someone had covid on the plane (I'd mask on a plane and hope those around me did, as I think is normally required as it is on public transit where I live but dunno about airplane policy since I haven't and so haven't kept up on the rules). If the plane gave notice on the website or through a text (both great!) of a known case, I'd appreciate it, but I doubt either would be available here so I can't get angry with Canada in this situation. I will probably fly later this summer, although I've heard O'Hare is really crazy at the moment so would rather not deal with flying out of it.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    So you think that a rapid test for every passenger isn't too onerous, but taking responsibility for your own health by checking a website for exposure information is?

    :error::error::error:

    Um, check the timing of the comments, as well as your comment I replied to. Am I supposed to have anticipated what 33gail33 might say after I posted? Once again, re the comment of yours I responded to I can't figure out who you thought you were arguing with, but it sure seemed like it was directed toward my post even though I said nothing about Canada or airplane policy.

    Specifically, this comment by you: "So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected" seemed to be responsive to a comment by me given a prior response in the same post to something about testing in my post that had absolutely nothing to do with Canada or airplanes. Nor do I think anyone else was talking about airplane flights.

    I haven't flown since covid started, and I suspect no US flight could be relied on to even know if someone had covid on the plane (I'd mask on a plane and hope those around me did, as I think is normally required as it is on public transit where I live but dunno about airplane policy since I haven't and so haven't kept up on the rules). If the plane gave notice on the website or through a text (both great!) of a known case, I'd appreciate it, but I doubt either would be available here so I can't get angry with Canada in this situation. I will probably fly later this summer, although I've heard O'Hare is really crazy at the moment so would rather not deal with flying out of it.

    My response to your saying nobody's arguing this was to point out to you that Gail was.

    But she hadn't before my comment, so how's that relevant?
    Sorry but none of my responses were mainly to things you've said, so no I have not directed much of what I've said to you specifically other than to disagree with your point that nobody's arguing that.

    Your post immediately after mine questioning the accuracy of rapid testing (re the Lolla rules to allow people with vaccines or within 72 hr negative tests) certainly seemed responsive, or at least going off about something about texts no one had discussed.
    My discussion is mainly centered to Gail's assertion that we don't need much more than vaccination.

    If enough people would get vaxxed we wouldn't. In my country (the US) we aren't, so various places are testing and others are still requiring masking for non vaxxed or all (public transit). But it's not actually easy to enforce so I am pushing for more vax. And anyone not vaxxed and not a child has chosen not to be vaxxed here.
    As to the difficulty of contact tracing under certain specific circumstances {and that difficulty being the reason why people were not contacted by overwhelmed health workers during the height of the pandemic (and at all other times)} I call BS. Not that the health workers were not overwhelmed, or that full contact tracing would have been prohibitive, but because it's utterly unnecessary By the time you've entered the information on the affected flights web page there's no extra contact tracing involved in order to send out text messages to potentially affected individuals. It is a part-time job for one person per airline who get to notify their potentially affected customers after the government politely tell them to do so instead of keeping quiet in the hope that no one notices

    I didn't say anything about the reason you were not contacted -- I said contact your gov't or the airline if you have an issue -- I explained why I would not expect to be contacted or to even have a website be especially helpful. Had I flown in Jan (and yes case levels where I am, not to mention death levels, have almost certainly been way higher than where you are), I would have tested before and after, regardless of airline policy. I have no confidence someone with a positive test would have informed the airline or that the airline would have phone numbers that were active for everyone on the plane. I have chosen not to fly since covid began (which has been frustrating) and figured flying would introduce uncertainties (not that other things do not). So yes, that flying means one might get exposed doesn't seem shocking, and I would ask what the airline does to protect people.

    I am not anti adding a rapid test given current rates if businesses want to and if someone can show me there's a rapid enough and accurate test for someone wanting to grocery shop or go to a restaurant if someone wants to. But I do think getting more people vaxxed is the better solution. My dad flew from Mexico to the US and had to have a negative test first. I don't think he got any contact tracing after that. I don't think anyone in the US has gotten contact tracing really, maybe Canada is different?
  • Theoldguy1
    Theoldguy1 Posts: 2,494 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    So you think that a rapid test for every passenger isn't too onerous, but taking responsibility for your own health by checking a website for exposure information is?

    :error::error::error:

    Um, check the timing of the comments, as well as your comment I replied to. Am I supposed to have anticipated what 33gail33 might say after I posted? Once again, re the comment of yours I responded to I can't figure out who you thought you were arguing with, but it sure seemed like it was directed toward my post even though I said nothing about Canada or airplane policy.

    Specifically, this comment by you: "So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected" seemed to be responsive to a comment by me given a prior response in the same post to something about testing in my post that had absolutely nothing to do with Canada or airplanes. Nor do I think anyone else was talking about airplane flights.

    I haven't flown since covid started, and I suspect no US flight could be relied on to even know if someone had covid on the plane (I'd mask on a plane and hope those around me did, as I think is normally required as it is on public transit where I live but dunno about airplane policy since I haven't and so haven't kept up on the rules). If the plane gave notice on the website or through a text (both great!) of a known case, I'd appreciate it, but I doubt either would be available here so I can't get angry with Canada in this situation. I will probably fly later this summer, although I've heard O'Hare is really crazy at the moment so would rather not deal with flying out of it.

    We flew about a month ago. Masks are required at all times in airports and on planes in the US.
  • 33gail33
    33gail33 Posts: 1,155 Member
    @lemurcat2 Come on now - surely you can read my mind!! :smiley:
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    PAV8888 wrote: »
    So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected.

    Seems like this is a question for the airline in question or the relevant gov't. I don't think anyone here is saying this is how it should be handled.
    33gail33 wrote: »
    So you think that a rapid test for every passenger isn't too onerous, but taking responsibility for your own health by checking a website for exposure information is?

    :error::error::error:

    Um, check the timing of the comments, as well as your comment I replied to. Am I supposed to have anticipated what 33gail33 might say after I posted? Once again, re the comment of yours I responded to I can't figure out who you thought you were arguing with, but it sure seemed like it was directed toward my post even though I said nothing about Canada or airplane policy.

    Specifically, this comment by you: "So please explain to me in little words that I can understand why people have to keep looking at a government website to see whether a flight they were on had covid exposure and which rows were affected" seemed to be responsive to a comment by me given a prior response in the same post to something about testing in my post that had absolutely nothing to do with Canada or airplanes. Nor do I think anyone else was talking about airplane flights.

    I haven't flown since covid started, and I suspect no US flight could be relied on to even know if someone had covid on the plane (I'd mask on a plane and hope those around me did, as I think is normally required as it is on public transit where I live but dunno about airplane policy since I haven't and so haven't kept up on the rules). If the plane gave notice on the website or through a text (both great!) of a known case, I'd appreciate it, but I doubt either would be available here so I can't get angry with Canada in this situation. I will probably fly later this summer, although I've heard O'Hare is really crazy at the moment so would rather not deal with flying out of it.

    We flew about a month ago. Masks are required at all times in airports and on planes in the US.

    That's good. I knew they were a while back, but wasn't sure if they still were.