Santa!?!?! I hate the lie!
Replies
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I told my son that Santa brings the toys, but I still get the bill.
But that said.................
The concept of Santa is a beautiful form of social engineering.
It is a clever way to introduce the concept of God or at the very least a common morality and cause and effect for behavior.
FAR too many people today think that bad actions have no consequences and I really don't care how they learn the lesson, but they need to learn that lesson early. So Santa is a good start.0 -
SOOOO... should we start burning all fiction and stop seeing fictional movies and put these kids to work? darn that sponge bob!!!! :devil:
Spongebob is awesome!
So is Santa. :flowerforyou:
I love Santa, except the Rudolph story. I like "The Santa Clause" and "Elf" the best! :flowerforyou:
I just saw Elf for the first time last year. It's my new favorite!0 -
Sometimes being a good parent means lying to them.
My kids still believe. I love that Christmas is magical to them. Believing in santa doesn't mean you don’t teach them the meaning of Christmas though.
Another crock!
Love = honesty
Disagree! There are adult things that children should NOT be exposed to. I believe lying is at times necessary to protect them.
Protecting little ones is NOT the same as telling them lies. Don't be absurd.
Semantics! Lying by omission is still a lie and although we are friends I think you are being extremely judgmental, condescending and frankly you are being absurd.
I'm not trying to be judgmental. The Santa Myth is one of my biggest pet peeves. In this, I am the "Annoying Atheist." Sorry.
ETA: I was originally playing "White Knight" to the OP because everyone was crapping on her. I know how that feels.
But your "White Knighting" did come across as very condescending and judgemental...in the way you wrote it...so if you don't truly feel that way or as strongly and were simply just defending the OP...didn't you just lie to all of us? Santa may be a myth, but I have always used him along the lines of Christmas Spirit. My children donate time, energy and toys to others in need this time of year, and this year my oldest has spent time cleaning up after the tornado that rocked Washington, IL as we live in Pekin. To say that allowing them to believe in Santa turns them into greedy liars is a sweeping generalization that is just not true. If you truly believe that I'm sorry...if you don't truly believe it...implying it is a lie....and you did imply it with one of your earlier posts. :-(
Oh, I'm sure it did, just as all the a-holes going off on the OP came across as condescending and judgmental. That's kinda the point of why I went down that road. I know how it feels to have people judging me for how I choose to raise my kids. It sucks when the shoe gets put on the other foot, eh?
Unfortunately you are directing the judging at the wrong person. At no time have I posted in here judging either you or the OP for your beliefs or the way you raise your children, but you have judged mine. You Implied in your post about your kids' friends that they are all gimme gimme mine mine because of the santa myth. My children are not that way at all making your implication a falsehood...then you post that you were only defending the OP..so do you truly believe that because I chose to raise my children in house where Santa existed that they will be greedy liars..or where you exagerating? Because exagerating the truth is also a lie. You also have to recognize that if someone asks for an opinion in a public forum, they will not just get people that agree with them. That is what makes the universe so amazing, it takes all different kinds! Defending is one thing, exagerating or being snarky simply because someone got snarky with you once and you know how it feels does not in any way shape or form make you any better than those being snarky to her.
To the OP..raise as you wish..it is a personal choice..one only you can decide for yourself. I loved Santa, and then playing Santa to younger siblings as a child, and my 13 year old loves it now. For us it has always been more about Spirit not an actual person. Best of Luck and Merry Christmas.0 -
as you sit and judge everyone.
I have a 19-year-old college sophomore daughter. She and her friends grew up with Santa. They are the sweetest, most giving, unselfish children I know.
Is that so?Tell him the truth. My mom did, and I learned to appreciate Christmas for the family time and spirit of generosity. I'm going to do the same for mine.
So true! My kids understand and appreciate Christmas, whereas the ones that get told the Santa lie, end up believing that Christmas is all about presents.
That has been my observations over the years. My kids are now observing the same with their classmates in high school.
Gimme, gimme, mine, mine...
LOL Just as one day of eating at Thanksgiving did not make anyone on MFP fat, one day of gift giving by Santa did not make any child self-centered and greedy. It is more in the day to day parenting that is done in homes to produce such children.
Stop it. That makes too much sense.
Sounds like you know a lot of kids with bad parents.
Oh, I don't doubt that. TBH, much of my ranting has just be reacting to idiotic attacks on the OP. When people get like that, I give them a taste of their own medicine. They never like it. :laugh:
The OP can, obviously, do what she wants. I just find this whole debate very sad. Equating letting kids believe in something like Santa to lynig makes me sad.
When I was little, I really and truly believed there was a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow and that unicorns existed. Sometimes, I still believe those things. I see Santa as something similar. Is it really a lie?
And then I see so many adults with no sense of humor or adventure or ... I don't know. Something is lacking. And I didn't know until recent years that there were families who celebrated Christmas and didn't allow Santa in their homes, but now I do and it explains a lot.
Obviously, it isn't about Santa specifically, since non-Christians for the most part wouldn't have used that. Half my family is Jewish, so I really do know this. It's the idea of stomping on that innocent wonder and belief that bothers me and it makes me want to cry.
So do you also teach your kids that Superheros are real? That there really is a Spiderman? Why or why not?
I just don't understand why it's so important to other people that some of us choose NOT to perpetuate the Santa Myth.
Why is it so important to you (and the OP) that some people do?
It isn't.
What is important to me is that people don't judge others. Feeling judged can be a good reminder as to why we shouldn't cast judgement.
Feels lovely, don't it?
Judge not, or you will be judged....0 -
We're atheist, so we don't teach our kids that any gods are real.
Because, you know, Santa fits the definition of a god. As does the easter bunny, and tooth fairy.
We don't do any of the lies, not Santa, easter bunny, various religions, none of it.
I've told her the tooth fairy isn't real, either. I still leave money for her under her pillow, and she knows I am the one who does it, but we like to pretend that I am the tooth fairy.
My parents are atheists. They told me about Santa and the tooth fairy. They even told me the tooth fairy uses the teeth to make little tiny fairy piano keys. They didn't do the Easter bunny though. No idea what they had against the Easter bunny.
I don't think those kinds of things harm kids, and I wouldn't put them in the same category as gods either. No-one worships Santa or the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy. But people worship Thor and Odin.
The might not worship, but they believe in it. For Santa, he has supernatural powers to travel the entire globe, know where you are, know if you've been a good person, and passes judgement on you. His likeness is easily recognized, we sing songs about his greatness, we write letters to him begging for favor, we decorate with his image.
Sounds like a god to me.
As for the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, they would be lesser gods, for sure. They are still anticipated, and dispense favors to those who believe in them.
who believes in Santa etc past early childhood though? religious people believe in their gods their whole life, or if they stop believing in them, they lose their faith. When a religious person teaches their children about the god they worship, they do it from a place of sincere belief. When parents (of any faith or none) tell their children about Santa etc, they know it's not real, they're doing it out of wanting their kid to have a bit of fun and something to be excited about. For something to be a bona fide religion and for the imaginary people to count as gods, then the adults in the culture have to sincerely believe in them too. Otherwise all kinds of fictional characters and made up people could be counted as gods.
If you change your perception slightly, you'll see exactly where I am coming from. Not all religious persons really believe their faith... if they did, many faiths would be abandoned based on the horrible teachings contained within their texts (meaning, people cherry-pick for a reason). When parents tell their children about Santa, they are telling a story they know is not true, which inspires awe and wonder in the child, only to have that child eventually realize they were lied to. This instance is very much what it is like to lose your religion. Rather than base our society on myths, it would be so much better to base it on the idea that *people* are the reason that our holidays are special. It would be better for *people* to take accountability for the children of the world to be cared for. Once you realize why you don't believe in any other religion other than your own, you will realize you believe those other religions are fake... made up.. fictional characters... and you will start to think about whether your own is, as well.
I don't have a problem with fairy tales... but I have a huge problem with people being made to believe, by people they trust, that those fairy tales are true.
speaking as a child who was "lied to" about Santa... it didn't make me mistrust my parents or any of those things mentioned in the thread. I could understand it was just a bit of fun that parents tell their kids. Yes even at age 6 I could understand that, without adults explaining it to me.
Also I disagree re most religious people not believing their faith. Granted there are a lot of people who identify with a faith because they were born into it but don't believe in it, but those people don't bother to teach it to their kids (at least not in my experience), it's just something they write on census forms etc and they just go about their life as though they were not religious. They see it as part of their identity, not as a faith that they practice. Practicing members of faiths (and I've known a lot of practicing Christians and Muslims over the years) do believe sincerely in the faith and teach it to their kids, and would be extremely distressed at the idea of losing their faith.
Additionally, I don't think you can say our society is based on the notion that Santa exists... not in the slightest!! So really, you can't say that people are basing society on a myth.
I agree with you re the idea of basing celebrations on people and concepts like being together with family etc. this is what Christmas was about in my house growing up, because my parents were not religious. We went to the pub on Christmas day, not the church (pub garden when we were too young to go into the actual pub). But they still did the whole Santa thing with us. It didn't spoil Christmas when I knew Santa wasn't real. It was still Christmas.
I think people on both sides of this debate, i.e. hardcore Atheists, and hardcore Christians, make way too much of a big deal about this. Ultimately all religious and cultural festivities are about food and socialising, something humans have probably done for *at least* 2 million years (possibly much longer, depending on what interpretation of the fossil record you favour). I don't think it really matters that some people associate religious significance to such festivities. So they drink ale and eat cakes for Thor and Odin, rather than just to have a family party.... does it matter?0 -
You're sweet but the people who judge me personally without knowing me are ignored. Shrug* I understand some people make these snap judgments because it scares them to think people may be doing things different from them.So my oldest is 3 and asked me about Santa and Christmas. I told him the basic crap that everyone spews and I hate myself for it! Wh does he need to believe in Santa just to have it crushed later in life? Why set them up for disappointment later in life. Am I a bad mom because I don't want to perpetuate this myth?
Thoughts please.
Your poor kid...who pissed in your wheaties? I don't think kids are all that crushed later in life when they realize he's not real...my parents never let me believe in Santa for religious reasons and it still irks me that they didn't just let me be a kid and enjoy a harmless fairy-tail for those few short years when magic is actually real.
Personally, yeah...I think you suck.
Exhibit....I don't know which number we are on. But um yeah. Another example of being judgmental... (but somehow I am the only one catching flak)0 -
Except that even with no money, you can do presents of some kind. They don't have to be store bought or expensive or the latest thing.
Thanksgiving is about love.This is exactly what I am talking about. To me, Christmas is meaningless if the only thing that matters is getting presents.
So just call it Thanksgiving and be done.
Why? Why not let Christmas be about love?
On Thanksgiving, you get together with the people you love, eat and are thankful for your life.
Without the traditions involved in Christmas (and it doesn't just have to be about presents, but that's part of the fun -- even if they're all homemade and cheap), then it's just Thanksgiving in December.
Thanksgiving is about being thankful. Christmas is about love and being with loved ones. Our traditions have to do with spending time together. We have had Christmas without any presents because no money. If we had done the Santa Myth, then my kids would totally hate that guy. :laugh:
There are ways around it.
And calling it "the Santa Myth" is incredibly insulting and condescending.
We chose to skip them entirely. I think equating Christmas with receiving presents is absurd.0 -
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Imagines all the big blow up Santas on everyones front lawns deflating simultaneously with that sickening broken bagpipe sound and a Macy's santa close up with a single tear AWE!!! :sad:0 -
What do you mean by "judgement", Crank?
as you sit and judge everyone.
I have a 19-year-old college sophomore daughter. She and her friends grew up with Santa. They are the sweetest, most giving, unselfish children I know.
Is that so?Tell him the truth. My mom did, and I learned to appreciate Christmas for the family time and spirit of generosity. I'm going to do the same for mine.
So true! My kids understand and appreciate Christmas, whereas the ones that get told the Santa lie, end up believing that Christmas is all about presents.
That has been my observations over the years. My kids are now observing the same with their classmates in high school.
Gimme, gimme, mine, mine...
LOL Just as one day of eating at Thanksgiving did not make anyone on MFP fat, one day of gift giving by Santa did not make any child self-centered and greedy. It is more in the day to day parenting that is done in homes to produce such children.
Stop it. That makes too much sense.
Sounds like you know a lot of kids with bad parents.
Oh, I don't doubt that. TBH, much of my ranting has just be reacting to idiotic attacks on the OP. When people get like that, I give them a taste of their own medicine. They never like it. :laugh:
The OP can, obviously, do what she wants. I just find this whole debate very sad. Equating letting kids believe in something like Santa to lynig makes me sad.
When I was little, I really and truly believed there was a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow and that unicorns existed. Sometimes, I still believe those things. I see Santa as something similar. Is it really a lie?
And then I see so many adults with no sense of humor or adventure or ... I don't know. Something is lacking. And I didn't know until recent years that there were families who celebrated Christmas and didn't allow Santa in their homes, but now I do and it explains a lot.
Obviously, it isn't about Santa specifically, since non-Christians for the most part wouldn't have used that. Half my family is Jewish, so I really do know this. It's the idea of stomping on that innocent wonder and belief that bothers me and it makes me want to cry.
So do you also teach your kids that Superheros are real? That there really is a Spiderman? Why or why not?
I just don't understand why it's so important to other people that some of us choose NOT to perpetuate the Santa Myth.
Why is it so important to you (and the OP) that some people do?
It isn't.
What is important to me is that people don't judge others. Feeling judged can be a good reminder as to why we shouldn't cast judgement.
If people can't make judgements, then they can't even hold an opinion.....then we wouldn't have any forums :sad:
Aren't you being judgemental?
Back to the OP......0 -
SOOOO... should we start burning all fiction and stop seeing fictional movies and put these kids to work? darn that sponge bob!!!! :devil:
Spongebob is awesome!
So is Santa. :flowerforyou:
I love Santa, except the Rudolph story. I like "The Santa Clause" and "Elf" the best! :flowerforyou:
I just saw Elf for the first time last year. It's my new favorite!
It has been a tradition in our house for a while now. So hilarious!0 -
Lie, pretend, tradition, we're doing it. I love bringing a little magic into our home. My little is really into fairies. We made a fairy garden so that any fairies in the area would have a place to hang out. Sometimes they leave things in the garden for little. Sometimes they leave little notes asking for her to give them things they need. Seeing the joy and wonder on her face when we talk about Santa, or tend to her garden...well, it completely wipes away any doubts I might have about "lying" to her. I wasn't crushed when I found out about Santa and I don't hate my parents for it. Whether it's Santa, or fairies, or dragons, whatever, I LOVE seeing parents pretending with their kids and bringing some magic into their lives. I think my little will have fond memories of this stuff when she's older. If it screws her up, she can get a good therapist to talk to about it.
Said fairy garden:
I absolutely love this. What a great idea!0 -
You're sweet but the people who judge me personally without knowing me are ignored. Shrug* I understand some people make these snap judgments because it scares them to think people may be doing things different from them.So my oldest is 3 and asked me about Santa and Christmas. I told him the basic crap that everyone spews and I hate myself for it! Wh does he need to believe in Santa just to have it crushed later in life? Why set them up for disappointment later in life. Am I a bad mom because I don't want to perpetuate this myth?
Thoughts please.
Your poor kid...who pissed in your wheaties? I don't think kids are all that crushed later in life when they realize he's not real...my parents never let me believe in Santa for religious reasons and it still irks me that they didn't just let me be a kid and enjoy a harmless fairy-tail for those few short years when magic is actually real.
Personally, yeah...I think you suck.
Exhibit....I don't know which number we are on. But um yeah. Another example of being judgmental... (but somehow I am the only one catching flak)
I just like to let people know how it feels. Some of these folks are just cracking me up. Others are making me feel sorry for them.0 -
No, you do.
Better check your FL twice for liars...wouldnt want to associate with them, now would you?I can't believe this thread has gone on for so many pages.....
I thought it would go to 2 max!
Well a lot of people are very upset about your Santa beliefs. Maybe Santa should be added to religion in the ToS. People are acting like their entire holiday is crushed because someone on the internet disagrees.
You think my FL is full of liars?
I mean, I am sure some of your FL are liars that participated in the Santa tradition and now according to you have greedy and horrible children.0 -
Not going to join this ridiculous debate besides providing these quotes.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein
'If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.'
—Albert Einstein0 -
And calling it "the Santa Myth" is incredibly insulting and condescending.
It is a myth. There's no way around it. No one, except for children who haven't figured out that they are being lied to, believe it. Everyone of an age of reason knows that it is false. That is a myth.0 -
You're sweet but the people who judge me personally without knowing me are ignored. Shrug* I understand some people make these snap judgments because it scares them to think people may be doing things different from them.So my oldest is 3 and asked me about Santa and Christmas. I told him the basic crap that everyone spews and I hate myself for it! Wh does he need to believe in Santa just to have it crushed later in life? Why set them up for disappointment later in life. Am I a bad mom because I don't want to perpetuate this myth?
Thoughts please.
Your poor kid...who pissed in your wheaties? I don't think kids are all that crushed later in life when they realize he's not real...my parents never let me believe in Santa for religious reasons and it still irks me that they didn't just let me be a kid and enjoy a harmless fairy-tail for those few short years when magic is actually real.
Personally, yeah...I think you suck.
Exhibit....I don't know which number we are on. But um yeah. Another example of being judgmental... (but somehow I am the only one catching flak)
I just like to let people know how it feels. Some of these folks are just cracking me up. Others are making me feel sorry for them.0 -
Who gives a f*@k???? Each to their own. Do what you want to do.
QFT
Stop attacking people for their beliefs, and we won't feel the need to attack back in defense of our choices!
LOL. What the pro-santa people have been saying is that Santa is good for the imagination and that it's fun fairytale and to lighten up a bit.
What you have been saying is this:
1. Parents who let their kids believe in Santa are liars and inherently dishonest.
2. Children who celebrate with Santa are bound to be selfish, spoiled brats who only want gifts.
And I'm not even going to get into your marriage insinuation which was insulting, rude and completely uncalled for.
What sounds more like an attack to you?
You have the right to your opinion. That right stops where the rights of others begins. :flowerforyou:
I'm pretty sure I didn't attack anyone, insult anyone, or tell anyone how to live their lives.0 -
Well at least we know "Festivus" is real!! Thank you for that!!!!:huh:0
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Not going to join this ridiculous debate besides providing these quotes.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein
'If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.'
—Albert Einstein
0 -
Not going to join this ridiculous debate besides providing these quotes.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein
'If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.'
—Albert Einstein
:drinker: wise words.0 -
We chose to skip them entirely. I think equating Christmas with receiving presents is absurd.
It isn't about receiving presents. It's about giving presents.0 -
And calling it "the Santa Myth" is incredibly insulting and condescending.
It is a myth. There's no way around it. No one, except for children who haven't figured out that they are being lied to, believe it. Everyone of an age of reason knows that it is false. That is a myth.
Yeah it's a myth. It's a fun myth though.
My favorite is the Krampus.0 -
Currently reading them Peter Pan, 1 chapter a night before bed.Not going to join this ridiculous debate besides providing these quotes.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein
'If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.'
—Albert Einstein0 -
I love how everyone is saying its about a childs imagination, and probably will be buying them a ps4 or other electronic play system for xmas. If you want a child to have a child-like imagination, you dont have to do it with a lie you can just give them a box and tell them to play outside. We didnt celebrate xmas and I had a wild imagination as a child, but I was only allowed to play the nintendo for a hour, and my bro sis and I had to split the hour umongst us. Since I was the baby I got a good 5-10 mins worth of play time haha
Oh you poor thing. Only an hour on the Nintendo? We didn't own video games (ever) or get basic cable on our single 20 inch tv until I was about 14. Do I get a prize?
On a more related note, I think celebrating the Spirit of Santa Claus (magic, giving, happiness) is more important than convincing your children he is real. And honestly, if denying your child Santa Claus is the biggest mistake you make as a parent, you're doing pretty good in my book. That being said, I grew up believing and to this day give my husband presents from Santa (no kids). I'm not read to let go of the magic.0 -
Ok, My thoughts are not popular, but we all have to choose how to raise our children, so here it goes. I feel exactly like you do. And I have no clue what your religious beliefs are, but for us, it is the time we celebrate our savior's birth. So, We were really torn! Then one day, our oldest just straight up asked us, like yours did, if he was real, we just decided we were not gonna lie about it. We are extremely blunt and honest people to begin with, and always talk with our kids about how we will always tell them the truth, no matter what.
I do feel like in the back of my mind, I always did remember feeling betrayed that my parents had lied to me about Santa. I am an extremely trusting person. If my parents told me something was true, then it was true, you know? So, we do not "do" Santa. I am actually buying a book at St. Nicholas to start reading to them at Christmas time. They know the story because we have told them, but St. Nicholas Day is Dec. 6th, I believe, and I would like to start incorporating that into our traditions. He was a real person and did wonderful things and showed compassion. Okay, ramble over.
I agree. My parents always made sure I knew Santa was just pretend, and as a kid, I always felt kind of sorry for my friends who believed in Santa. I have told my children it is pretend, because I can't look them in the eye and tell them something that I know is not true. We still go see Santa and do the whole bit, but they know that it is just a pretend game we are playing.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong for doing it differently. My husband grew up believing in Santa and had a great experience. No huge let down when he found out. But you just have to do what you feel comfortable with as a parent. And I couldn't tell my kids Santa is real.0 -
No, you do.
Better check your FL twice for liars...wouldnt want to associate with them, now would you?I can't believe this thread has gone on for so many pages.....
I thought it would go to 2 max!
Well a lot of people are very upset about your Santa beliefs. Maybe Santa should be added to religion in the ToS. People are acting like their entire holiday is crushed because someone on the internet disagrees.
You think my FL is full of liars?
I mean, I am sure some of your FL are liars that participated in the Santa tradition and now according to you have greedy and horrible children.
I can see that you failed to understand the point. I don't care how other people raise their kids, just don't tell me how to raise mine. No one in my FL has EVER tried to tell me how to raise my kids.
:laugh:0 -
And calling it "the Santa Myth" is incredibly insulting and condescending.
It is a myth. There's no way around it. No one, except for children who haven't figured out that they are being lied to, believe it. Everyone of an age of reason knows that it is false. That is a myth.
Then you should put "myth" at the end of every fictional book and movie title.0 -
wow! this one took off fast!0
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speaking as a child who was "lied to" about Santa... it didn't make me mistrust my parents or any of those things mentioned in the thread. I could understand it was just a bit of fun that parents tell their kids. Yes even at age 6 I could understand that, without adults explaining it to me.
For me, it was extremely painful to realize Santa wasn't true. I had a really, really ****ty childhood, and god, jesus, nor the church members I went to for help, bothered to help me. My last ditch string of hope was that santa was real, and he could see that I was a nice kid who didn't deserve the hellish life I had. When I realized that santa really wasn't real, it really sunk in that I was completely alone in the world, that no one was going to help me, that no one was going to come save me.
I felt the same thing when I finally rejected the christian myth as well.
So, does it color my perception on whether we should perpetuate the lie? Yes, it does. It also makes me feel that false hope, not matter how well-intentioned, is detrimental. Believing in any of these false gods is detrimental, because NOTHING supernatural is going to come to your aid, no matter how good of a person you are. If you don't expect a god to rescue you, you can devote your time to actually making the world a better place.0 -
Who gives a f*@k???? Each to their own. Do what you want to do.
QFT
Stop attacking people for their beliefs, and we won't feel the need to attack back in defense of our choices!
LOL. What the pro-santa people have been saying is that Santa is good for the imagination and that it's fun fairytale and to lighten up a bit.
What you have been saying is this:
1. Parents who let their kids believe in Santa are liars and inherently dishonest.
2. Children who celebrate with Santa are bound to be selfish, spoiled brats who only want gifts.
And I'm not even going to get into your marriage insinuation which was insulting, rude and completely uncalled for.
What sounds more like an attack to you?
You have the right to your opinion. That right stops where the rights of others begins. :flowerforyou:
I'm pretty sure I didn't attack anyone, insult anyone, or tell anyone how to live their lives.
Not that I've noticed, so why lump yourself in with Annoying Atheists if you are respectful of the beliefs of others?0
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