Is chivalry really dead? :(
Replies
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For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.
You might if people implied they were honorable and polite to you because you are weak. Do you think you would consider it honorable and polite if a big body building man helped you with your coat or insisted on paying your bill?
I don't think chivalry is fair to men either. It encourages more responsibility than what is needed and also promotes a lack of awareness of some of the needs of men.0 -
This is going to sound silly, but I'll go ahead and say it.Why does it make you feel uncomfortable when a woman pays?
I derive a lot of happiness/joy from being a nurturer and protector, especially of women.
I am a bigger, stronger guy with blue eyes, a deep voice, and a shaved head. I have to actively try to set people at ease so they are not naturally intimidated by me.
I also grew up with younger sisters, and it was drilled into my head at a young age that girls were special and needed my protection, and I took that to heart.
So I don't know if it's that I enjoy making women feel that I can take care of them, or my protective reflex kicking in that means that I'm "harmed" by the bill versus them being harmed, or what...
I don't know.
Psychoanalysis, here we come.
IMO paying bills has to do with money and in our society money equals power. As I said before, I'd rather have pay equity than free meals.
So, that younger poster , that you said was acting like a teenage, were you threatened by her? Your behavior was definitely not nurturing, and certainly not chivalrous by any definition.0 -
It exists...0
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You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.
I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.
Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:
Cloaks don't come cheap these days
We should bring them back.
And swords. We definitely need swords0 -
For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.
You might if people implied they were honorable and polite to you because you are weak. Do you think you would consider it honorable and polite if a big body building man helped you with your coat or insisted on paying your bill?
I don't think chivalry is fair to men either. It encourages more responsibility than what is needed and also promotes a lack of awareness of some of the needs of men.
That is a fantastic point. Chivalry does indeed put the burden of responsibility on the man and ignores his needs. I prefer it for both parties to have their S/O's needs in mind and acting accordingly.0 -
You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.
I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.
Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:
Cloaks don't come cheap these days
We should bring them back.
And swords. We definitely need swords
Swords as in longswords, or swords as in rapiers? I think a rapier would be more practical, while a longsword is more badass.0 -
You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.
I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.
Agreed0 -
This is going to sound silly, but I'll go ahead and say it.Why does it make you feel uncomfortable when a woman pays?
I derive a lot of happiness/joy from being a nurturer and protector, especially of women.
I am a bigger, stronger guy with blue eyes, a deep voice, and a shaved head. I have to actively try to set people at ease so they are not naturally intimidated by me.
I also grew up with younger sisters, and it was drilled into my head at a young age that girls were special and needed my protection, and I took that to heart.
So I don't know if it's that I enjoy making women feel that I can take care of them, or my protective reflex kicking in that means that I'm "harmed" by the bill versus them being harmed, or what...
I don't know.
Psychoanalysis, here we come.
IMO paying bills has to do with money and in our society money equals power. As I said before, I'd rather have pay equity than free meals.
So, that younger poster , that you said was acting like a teenage, were you threatened by her? Your behavior was definitely not nurturing, and certainly not chivalrous by any definition.
I have a feeling this particular poster will at some point meet someone who has tremendous appreciation for his code of ethics. I don't find his outlook sexist, perhaps a wee-bit old fashioned and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.0 -
Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:
I now have the best mental picture of my husband putting his coat down on the ground for me. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:0 -
This is going to sound silly, but I'll go ahead and say it.Why does it make you feel uncomfortable when a woman pays?
I derive a lot of happiness/joy from being a nurturer and protector, especially of women.
I am a bigger, stronger guy with blue eyes, a deep voice, and a shaved head. I have to actively try to set people at ease so they are not naturally intimidated by me.
I also grew up with younger sisters, and it was drilled into my head at a young age that girls were special and needed my protection, and I took that to heart.
So I don't know if it's that I enjoy making women feel that I can take care of them, or my protective reflex kicking in that means that I'm "harmed" by the bill versus them being harmed, or what...
I don't know.
Psychoanalysis, here we come.
I hear you, man.
My father left when I was 3 years old, and I was raised by my mother and grandmother (my grandfather died when I was 8). Respect and chivalry (by it's second definition, if we are going to really argue that I could possibly mean the first) were part of my upbringing, and have become a pretty integral part of my identity. I have often been described as a 'real gentleman' - though of course the English accent in the USA really helps that perception, I guess.
I've certainly never had anyone explicitly say that my behavior offends them. Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. But I'm sure a great many more women would be offended by someone letting the door shut in their face, than by having someone hold it for them. It certainly angers me when someone does it to me or to my wife, whether by ignorance of just plain unawareness of surroundings.
And for the record, I also hold the door open for a guy that's close behind me. However for a guy I typically just hold it until he grabs it, then walk in first. I will stand aside and let a woman go first.
One place where things differ is in a professional environment. Whereas I will pull out a chair for woman if we are meeting socially (no romantic overtones required), I would not do so if I were having a lunch meeting to discuss business - especially if the meeting is not likely to be a pleasant one. I would never do something that could be construed (no matter how incorrectly) as a power play to weaken the negotiating position of a female colleague by enforcing a gender stereotype.0 -
For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.
You might if people implied they were honorable and polite to you because you are weak. Do you think you would consider it honorable and polite if a big body building man helped you with your coat or insisted on paying your bill?
I don't think chivalry is fair to men either. It encourages more responsibility than what is needed and also promotes a lack of awareness of some of the needs of men.
That is a fantastic point. Chivalry does indeed put the burden of responsibility on the man and ignores his needs. I prefer it for both parties to have their S/O's needs in mind and acting accordingly.
Is pillaging allowed? If it is I'm pretty sure my needs will be met. I probably will even be able to purchase a new cloak to replace that one that got all nasty in the puddle.0 -
Agreed, it wasn't.So, that younger poster , that you said was acting like a teenage, were you threatened by her? Your behavior was definitely not nurturing, and certainly not chivalrous by any definition.
I was just annoyed.0 -
That is a fantastic point. Chivalry does indeed put the burden of responsibility on the man and ignores his needs. I prefer it for both parties to have their S/O's needs in mind and acting accordingly.
Together you and I have the world figured out. People now just need to behave according to our decrees. World domination. Excellent.0 -
For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.
You might if people implied they were honorable and polite to you because you are weak. Do you think you would consider it honorable and polite if a big body building man helped you with your coat or insisted on paying your bill?
I don't think chivalry is fair to men either. It encourages more responsibility than what is needed and also promotes a lack of awareness of some of the needs of men.
That is a fantastic point. Chivalry does indeed put the burden of responsibility on the man and ignores his needs. I prefer it for both parties to have their S/O's needs in mind and acting accordingly.
Is pillaging allowed? If it is I'm pretty sure my needs will be met. I probably will even be able to purchase a new cloak to replace that one that got all nasty in the puddle.
Pillaging your partner is not only allowed, it is encouraged.0 -
That is a fantastic point. Chivalry does indeed put the burden of responsibility on the man and ignores his needs. I prefer it for both parties to have their S/O's needs in mind and acting accordingly.
Together you and I have the world figured out. People now just need to behave according to our decrees. World domination. Excellent.
I've said for years that if people would just do exactly as I say, their lives would be easier.0 -
You're right, if I were dating a man I would treat them in a similar way that I treat a woman. That is why I called it a standard of behavior rather than using the term "chivalry" since it historically only applies to the behavior of men.
I think just about everyone on this thread can agree that as a standard of behavior, treating each other politely and doing special things for your romantic partner is a good idea. I think people are arguing that the term chivalry is an unnecessary standard at this point, and that's why it can die. The universal courtesy can stay.
Yeah, when I think of chivalry, I think of men laying their traveling cloaks down over puddles for a lady to step on to avoid getting her feet wet. Which is just unnecessary. :laugh:
Cloaks don't come cheap these days
We should bring them back.
And swords. We definitely need swords
Swords as in longswords, or swords as in rapiers? I think a rapier would be more practical, while a longsword is more badass.
Do I need my left hand free? That broadsword is an awfully heavy weapon. Clearly badass though.
Off to opress some villagers0 -
Is pillaging allowed? If it is I'm pretty sure my needs will be met. I probably will even be able to purchase a new cloak to replace that one that got all nasty in the puddle.
If the only pillaging victims are men and no women are harmed in the making of said pillaging.0 -
Nahh but i do agree with one of the first few posts. Once equality came in and was expected, chivalry sorta died out. It happens sometimes but not so much. it's fine by me though, i think we can each dote on eachother
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Is pillaging allowed? If it is I'm pretty sure my needs will be met. I probably will even be able to purchase a new cloak to replace that one that got all nasty in the puddle.
If the only pillaging victims are men and no women are harmed in the making of said pillaging.
I think they come into play with the word that often precedes "pillage."
Ahh, the good old days.
We really ought to bring them back . . .0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.0
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This aughta be good.Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
Oh shiiiiiiiiii...0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
Other than children first, I would like the group to work together to save the maximum of lives. I would not expect nor demand that I would be saved instead of another person because of my gender.0 -
\For me I don't tend to get my dander up over semantics. I like the idea of honor and being polite, don't give a rats behind where it stems from.
You might if people implied they were honorable and polite to you because you are weak. Do you think you would consider it honorable and polite if a big body building man helped you with your coat or insisted on paying your bill?
I don't think chivalry is fair to men either. It encourages more responsibility than what is needed and also promotes a lack of awareness of some of the needs of men.
Well you've got me there. Even though I am a middle aged lady, I guess I am naive. It never entered my mind to assume automatically that someone helping me with my coat or picking up the check is doing it because they perceive I am weak. I always just thought they were extremely polite. Hey, I grew up in the late '70s and '80s and I paid my share of dinner tickets and I still hold the door open for everyone if I am the first one there. I am arguing for politeness all around, to heck with the words chivalry or to add a new one to the mix being a "lady."0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
I would die for my husband and sons.
The thought of this makes me sad.0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
I would want to live as much as you would. I would not want my gender to be the reason I did. I'd have to live with myself afterward.
But then again, I seriously judged Rose in Titanic for not sharing the giant piece of ice she was on with Jack.
Anyway, yes, I'd want a fair and equitable way of deciding who drowns and who dies, but it would suck all around. It wouldn't occur to me to have some people live or die based on gender.
If you were on a sinking ship, with your wife and another woman, and you gave the other woman your spot in the boat just because she's a woman, I'd be enraged if I were your wife (or daughter.)0 -
Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
Other than children first, I would like the group to work together to save the maximum of lives.
A committee meeting sounds like the perfect thing to occupy those few precious minutes.
My wife and kids are going into that boat.
Enjoy the chat0 -
As long as I want to look like a lady, act like a lady and dress like one, I'd like to be treated like one.0
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Holy crap!!! So glad someone else felt this way!!!Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
But then again, I seriously judged Rose in Titanic for not sharing the giant piece of ice she was on with Jack.0 -
Children first.Here is the real question, if you were on a sinking ship would you want chivalry to be dead or alive ladies? If you have been arguing that chivalry is a misogynistic ideal, then I am guessing you would want an equitable way of deciding who drowns and who gets in the lifeboat that has nothing to do with gender.
Then every person for themselves.
It's not difficult.0
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